161 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

Collider wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...
Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Just for curiosity's sake: when did you finish the loyalty mission where the Miranda/Jack conflict followed? And can it be that your Paragons score was only 99.5% instead of 100%?

I did Miranda and Jack's loyalty missions side by side. Probably ~11 hours in. Wasn't able to use charm or intimidate, had to side with one or the other which was out of character for my Shepard.

I personally did not have 100% paragon, but I've heard of at least a few people who had 100% paragon and was unable to resolve the fight with charm.

Then I highly doubt it's even an issue. It sounds like rumormongering and with importing characters from ME1 I've never not had enough Charm or Intimidate to get past any check.

Lumikki wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Lumikki
wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ecael, I believe my
"complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to
be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was
paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v.
Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score
should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way
they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Jack v
Miranda fight is one of most difficult to solve as paragon, easyer as
renegade.

You really need full scale paragon to get this fight
solved. When I played first times ME2 I could not solve it at all.
Mostly because I wasn't paragon enough to do it. Meaning I wasn't famous
enough my diplomatic skill and I was doing it way too early.  How ever,
last time I was able to do it, because I saved the Jack v Miranda
confilct as last possible moment, just before doing IFF mission. I had
done all other loyal missions allready, when I did Jacks. I got enough
paragon that time to break the fight.

Also what you say here is
not restricting roleplaying, it's restricting players wrongly roleplay
they character agaist what they character are, defined by player it
self. You as player want sertain outcome, but you character isn't ready
for it, yet. You may not like it as player, but that is your characters
reality. That is actualy good roleplaying, not to allow you do actions
agaist your characters abilities.

That's a lie.
I've never not cleared the Charm check for Miranda and Jack and I do
their Loyalty missions whenever I want (usually pretty early because I
love Squad Warp Ammo and Slam). And even if you can't make that check, I
believe you can agree with Jack...then she leaves the room and there's
an easier Charm check to get Miranda back to being loyal.

Same
with Tali and Legion except you choose Tali and then she walks out and
you Charm Legion back into Loyalty.

What was a lie?

You
mean that I did not say that you can solve the loyalty situations later
too?

The lie is that you do not need 100% Paragon or Renegade to pass the speech check.

Logic and fact are running counter to your idea that Bioware has some conspiracy to make their role-playing game less role-playing.

There are rules to each and every game, even role-playing games. They're not here to do exactly as you whim whenever you wish it. You must reach certain conditions to put on certain armor, need to have so many points for this to happen, need to be a certain level to start a quest. Each game has multiple rules. Despite and because of these rules you role-play within them. This is like any role-playing game but I'm going to use the Granddaddy and progenerator of all Role-playing games Dungons and Dragons as an example.

There are dozens of rule books, each the size of a phone book, for D&D. There are certain builds that you cannot do because they're game breaking. Each story is created by Dungon Masters who craft as much or as little as they wish that the players role-play in.

Despite and because of these restrictions players for decades have been able to role-play massive adventures.

Bioware is the Dungon Master. They created the story, dungons, and monsters awaiting you. The rules of the game are simple so you cannot do or have everything and break the game's balance. You role-play within the system following their rules and story.

You can role-play with any game. All you need is imagination. You're character has no depth then you have no imagination. I used to have campagines in my head for Age of Empires back in the 90s. It's a real time stratagey game!

badkenbad wrote...

Mass Effect 2 doesn't force you to do
jack squat. That developer statement is misleading at best. I swear,
people will take anything someone from Bioware says and treat it as
literal gospel.

You don't have to game the system to keep your
crew loyal. You just have to make smart choices. If you do stuff that
would ****** off your crew, well, you're going to end up with some who
aren't loyal.

Note that this Shepard is level 30, does not have
max Paragon or Renegade, and has significant Paragon and Renegade
scores. This Shepard is not an imported character. Also note that she
sort of looks like Zoe Saldana.

Here's the proof (I have the
save file, if you want it):

Oh, thank you, sir. Thank you.

See. You don't even need 100% of either to be able to Charm or Intimidate!

If you can't play the game, people....

[Pacifien]

The paragon/renegade system in ME2 isn't perfect, but neither is the charm/intimidate option in ME1. They both require you to concentrate on one type of playstyle to make full use of the system, rewarding those who play toward one extreme or another, while ignoring those who choose to be more balanced in their choices.

There's also the feeling among the players that if you don't pick a paragon or renegade option, you're limiting your options as you continue through the game as less and less of those options become available to you. Get into a situation like Miranda/Jack or Tali/Legion, then rather take it as a roleplay option, you feel like you're being punished by forcing you to choose.

I can understand the theory behind those confrontations. It's similar to Virmire in that the developers want the decisions you make to truly have consequences, but they botch it by giving you a way out. Or maybe they were listening to criticism about Virmire in which players didn't like that there was no way out.

There are also situations when you don't have to take either paragon or renegade option and end up with the same result, but what do you get for being a less persuasive individual? Less points. No points. The developers give you no reason to go neutral other than a player's personal decision to roleplay.

It would be better if the paragon/renegade (charm/intimidate) morality wasn't reflected so much in the choices you make, but the way the world around you responds. Charm should get you far on a place like Illium. Intimidation should get you far on Tuchanka. Neutrality should work better on the Citadel maybe. And while each one gives you a different atmosphere to the game, you shouldn't be punished for playing one way or another, ie have game options closed to you. And if there are to be consequences in the game, it would be better (though somewhat unrealistic) for it to be in spite of your persuasion skills in the name of game balance.

[CmdrFenix83]

LPPrince wrote...

I agree ME1's system was better.

ME2 forced you to stick to one side. That sucked.

My Shepard is a paragon with renegade tendencies every now and again, but I found myself in moments where I couldn't choose the renegade option I wanted to.

For example, the "I'm a Spectre, start talking" choice when interrogating Elias.

I disagree.  I absolutely hated having to either 1) waste a bunch of skill points on charm or 2) waste 40+ hours clearing the game two times before playing through a 3rd time just to be able to speak with people correctly.

I never had this problem in ME2.  Every character I've played, however, was an import from ME1, so I started with a good boost in Paragon/Renegade with which to use said dialogue options.  With an ME1 import, I never encountered an issue on my Paragade characters using charm options. 

That said, I would prefer not spending build points or having to acquire paragon/renegade points for dialogue options.  Just make both options available for everyone, leave them color coded blue/red so people know what they are.  This way if you're a mostly paragon player, but want to intimidate some thug, you can do so without having to sacrifice combat ability.

[Lumikki]

Foolsfolly wrote...

See. You don't even need 100% of either to be able to Charm or Intimidate!

If you can't play the game, people....

Sorry,I did not say it well. My purpose was, more like to say you need alot of paragons to solve Miranda v Jack conflict. I did not mean you need 100%, what is wrong. As for Legion vs Tali conflict, you don't need so much paragon points, it's easyer for paragon Shepard. I solved it everytime I played ME2. Miranda v Jack conflict is harder for paragon Shepard.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 mai 2010 - 10:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

A big part of the dissatisfaction is that people consider the charm/intimidate options an entitlement, as opposed to a reward. Those aren't part of the 'core' role playing experience: all the normal options are your roleplaying tools. All the major story choices, points at which role playing is vital, aren't point-dependent. Charm/intimidate checks are just gravy.



You aren't entitled to paragon or renegade options. Those are rewards to those who've built up the reputation for them. Most of them don't take much in the first place, and the larger ones aren't the sort you could credibly pull off without a strong reputation.

[Ecael]

badkenbad wrote...

Here's the proof (I have the save file, if you want it):

How did you manage that? I'm somewhat baffled...

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Of course it does.



ME2 is a dumbed down piece of trash, what did you expect? Complexity?

[Bigdoser]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Of course it does.

ME2 is a dumbed down piece of trash, what did you expect? Complexity?

Thats your opinion.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 26 mai 2010 - 11:10 .

[TelexFerra]

estoy de acuerdo

[rukus007]

Neuetral people tend do ah .....nothiing even though there ok people n life so being good or bad you get the most done and the most response and graphics on this game .

[SuperMedbh]

Personally I like the DA:O system-- interactions influence those specific NPCs basd upon their world view. Frequently, some actions would result in approval from one character and disapproval from another. Yes, it boiled down to approve/disapprove, but however simplistic, it still made sense. Take the Jack/Miranda conflict. Shouldn't their reaction be based upon how much Shepard has done directly for and in front of them? Jack and Miranda are very different characters, it should take different actions to influence them.



To an extent, the original Wrex conflict in ME1 worked like that. Yes, it was based on persuade but also on whether you'd helped Wrex with his quest.

[Bigdoser]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A big part of the dissatisfaction is that people consider the charm/intimidate options an entitlement, as opposed to a reward. Those aren't part of the 'core' role playing experience: all the normal options are your roleplaying tools. All the major story choices, points at which role playing is vital, aren't point-dependent. Charm/intimidate checks are just gravy.

You aren't entitled to paragon or renegade options. Those are rewards to those who've built up the reputation for them. Most of them don't take much in the first place, and the larger ones aren't the sort you could credibly pull off without a strong reputation.

This is the first time I am ever agreeing with Dean.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 26 mai 2010 - 11:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Don't be so hard on yourself.

[Bigdoser]

The problem with integrating a system like DAO into mass effect is not possible because of the simple fact that your character is voiced also approval loss did not matter in DAO since gifts can easily fix it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not only that, but people would often simply choose all the 'best' options with whoever they were talking to, and arranging their parties around those who would more or less lean one way or another and would approve/disapprove as a group. Actual roleplaying was no less restricted by people's desires to have everyone like them max.

[Kali-yuga]

Collider wrote...

Some time ago, a developer revealed that players MUST act consistently ONLY paragon or ONLY renegade in order to use charm and intimidate. I played Mass Effect in the first place because I wanted to roleplay Shepard as how I want.

In the fight involving two human squad mates, I was unable to use either charm or intimidate, and therefore had to side with one or the other. For my Shepard, this was out of character. He had full persuasion skill, yet was unable to use charm and intimidate.

The system in ME1 was a million times better.

I don't want the game to tell me that I have to either be Paragon or I have to be Renegade.

I thought the main draw of the game was choice. I don't want to be forced to either be Space Paladin or Antisocial Jerk. Please fix the system Bioware in ME3, let us roleplay our Shepards. 

If you want more information, please visit this thread:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/2723147

The best way to do the choices in ME3 would be like Dragon Age: your ability to use charm or intimidate depends on a persuade skill and nothing else.

EDIT: The system in ME1 wasn't as good as I imagined. But something is wrong when you have full paragon yet are unable to use charm. Please make paragon and renegade not a requirement for charm or intimidate, Bioware. Just make a persuasion skill.

I strongly agree and was annoyed with them putting that in the game (among other things). I heard that you had to commit to one choice, so on my last play through I was trying to do that. But ended up doing what I wanted, I hated doing one choice. Near the end of the game where Miranda and Jack get in the argument, I made sure I used the reset power ability in hopes of having enough renagade points. I fully upgraded the last ability (the class ability) and chose the one where the Paragon/Renegade goes up the most.

I saved and then continued with the game, in the scene with Mirand and Jack I got the renegade option, and My renegade meter was at the third line on the renegade bar, it wasnt not full. If you dont know what Im talking about, look at the paragon and renegade bar, its split into sections ( I call them lines), the red meter was at the third line (not full).
Whats up with that? I dont understand how people committed to one and it didnt work. Excuse this if this had already been discussed.

--Edit, I read above that getting a paragone choice in the fight is harder than renegade.

Modifié par Kali-yuga, 27 mai 2010 - 12:01 .

[TelexFerra]

The same happened to me with Tali and Legion.



I committed to Renegade after importing my RenegadeShep from ME1



I had to tell Tali to calm down

[SuperMedbh]

Bigdoser wrote...

The problem with integrating a system like DAO into mass effect is not possible because of the simple fact that your character is voiced also approval loss did not matter in DAO since gifts can easily fix it.

I don't see how that matters.  Approval/disapproval occurs based on your choices, not vocal inflection.  As far as gifts go, yes once you figured out which gifts were the good ones you could "buy love" in DA:O, but that's the same as knowing what responses to click.  If you're going to look at the walkthrough before first playthrough, then you'll know what to do beforehand.  Personally, I don't, and make myself figure things out (including what responses REALLY annoy the NPCs).

The main concept in DA:O I like is the character specific measurement of approval.  Not everyone is going to react to you the same way.

[Kali-yuga]

So wait if you dont need full of either than how does it work?

[Dean_the_Young]

It scales by how much are possible (anticipated) by a certain part of the game. Story missions are such checkpoints: the number of points needed to paragon Zaeed, for example, changes between before Horizon and after.



The earlier you do a loyalty check, the fewer points you need. It's part of what makes ME1 imports much easier: you start with more points than you need.

[Kali-yuga]

Ohhh, thats not bad.The earlier the better huh? So I should do the miranda and jack mission as soon as I can and I'll have a better chance?

[badkenbad]

Ecael wrote...

badkenbad wrote...

Here's the proof (I have the save file, if you want it):

How did you manage that? I'm somewhat baffled...

I don't know what to tell you.

I did this playthrough in parallel with my YouTube hardcore sentinel videos, so that I would have a different character to practice and experiment with. For the most part, I chose middle conversation options throughout the game. Occasionally I'd do a Paragon or Renegade option for fun. Usually I also did the Paragon/Renegade interrupts. That's where most of the Renegade came from, I'm sure.

I did the Heretic Station mission right at the end of the game, after retrieving the IFF, and before the suicide mission. When it came to the Tali/Legion conflict, I took Legion's side, because neither the Paragon nor Renegade options were available during the "discussion." After the fight I went and talked to Tali, and "charmed" her back into being loyal. I guess Tali is a softie when it comes to a Paragon Shepard.

I still think the premise of this thread is wrong. You are not restricted from roleplaying, you are restricted from doing whatever the hell you want and getting away with it. Mass Effect 2 rewards creative gameplay, it doesn't get in the way of it.

Modifié par badkenbad, 27 mai 2010 - 12:44 .

[Ulicus]

I'm with the OP. ME1's charm/intimidate system was better. ME2 directly binding it to Paragon/Renegade was a poor decision that undermines any attempt to portray a "realistic" Shepard who handles situations on a case-by-case basis -- unless you don't mind that you won't be able to handle certain persuade checks for no good reason.

Sure, since charm was linked to paragon and intimidate to renegade in ME1, there was a degree of shoehorning in that game but NG+ meant this wasn't an issue.  After a couple of playthroughs with one character, it was possible to have maxed both charm AND intimidate and for these to carry over.

ME2's system makes this impossible. Given that the most frequently stated reason people wanted NG+ to remain in ME2 was so they could then play through with a Shepard who could experience any dialog option, it's really, really frustrating.

At the moment, my preference would be for them to simply (I don't know how simple it would be, of course) add an additional skill bar for persuade. Each rank giving you the equiv. of a full segment of both paragon AND renegade.

So, if you had 3/5 Paragon, 1/5 Renegade and 2/4 Persuade, your Paragon Persuade would be 5/5 and your Renegade persuade would be 3/5.

(The skill would obviously need a few extra bells and whistles to be worthwhile -- discounts, maybe some sort of relevant squad bonus, etc)

Modifié par Ulicus, 27 mai 2010 - 01:07 .

[Ecael]

http://social.biowar...5/index/2656020

An idea I came up with for the morality system in ME3.