Shandepared wrote...
RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Because being a nice guy is better than being a douchebag.
Nice guys finish last.
Guest_Shandepared_*
MrNose wrote...
Why shouldn't Miranda resign?
Raphael diSanto wrote...
Elnora, so far, is the only decision in ME where taking the renegade option proves to be the right decision. Personally, I think BioWare missed a perfect opportunity to do that to us with the Tali trial, the Elnora decision writ-large.
Modifié par Shandepared, 26 mai 2010 - 01:02 .
Nightwriter wrote...
Do you mean the "let them die" one or the "focus on Sovereign" one? Cuz one can be right but the other sort of isn't.
Strike wrote...
Specifically toward the choice of the Collector Base, it depends more on your trust of Cerberus then anything. Do you think Cerberus can handle this technology? Will they be able to harness the abilities of the technology without running into complications?
I don't think keeping or destroying it is a renegade or paragon action, if you have concrete definitions for them.
For me:
Paragon: Ultimately looking to save the most lives as possible in the current mission. No matter who or what. This method requires a person who has empathy and a belief in second chances.
Renegade: Ultimately looking toward the future to save lives.This method requires a person with excellent precognition and good judgment; who to kill or not to kill.
If you judge the Collector Base (destroy/save), you actually don't know what will happen. Destroying the base could be determined as a way to save lives in the future (Renegade) if you don't trust Cerberus.
On the flipside, saving the Collector Base could be determined as a way to save as many lives possible (Paragon) if you trust Cerberus.
Zulu_DFA wrote...
Nightwriter wrote...
Do you mean the "let them die" one or the "focus on Sovereign" one? Cuz one can be right but the other sort of isn't.
It returns the samre result. Both are right. They are the same one choice, just wrapped into different words, that give you a slightly different karma. But your own personal karma has nothing to do with the "right" and "wrong".
Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 mai 2010 - 02:58 .
right. suprised you don't get bad guy points for telling the dude to goto hell when he states he wants to turn you into his prisoner and slave.Nightwriter wrote...
... And it's renegade to tell Warden Kuril, "You talked up your noble intentions, but you're just a criminal like all the rest." I mean, really? That line is so paragon.
Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 26 mai 2010 - 03:22 .
scorptatious wrote...
I do remember that in the Purgatory Prison, you can use intimidate to convince the guard to stop the prisonor getting tortured as well as charm. So either way can get you one desired result.
Not to mention Renegade interupts, such as before that fight with thos Werloc Krogan, makes certain fights easier. So Paragon isn't always right.
The Thorian didn't want to reason with shepard (even after shepard tried his diplomatic approach), yet shepard sparring the Rachni queen granted him a formable ally.StrawberryViking wrote...
Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I intended to put it in the general discussion section, but this contains some major spoilers for both games, so I’m putting it here.
It seems to defeat the point of the choice, to have the paragon always be the "right" option, and by "right", I don't mean morally, but it seems that Paragons always end up getting it better in the end. The game is supposed to have “hard decisions”, but that hardly seems to be the case when you know that picking an option in the upper portion
of the wheel will always turn out in your favor in the end.
If, you don't really catch what I mean, the most profound example is in ME1,when you have to make the decision on whether or not to save the council. I personally chose to "focus on Sovereign", because frankly, in my opinion, saving all organic life as we know it seems to be the more important issue at the moment, rather than saving the life a three politicians. Though leaving the council to die may not have been the morally sound choice, focusing
on Sovereign was the smartest choice at that moment, with that knowledge.
Yet, in the end, if you choose the "paragon" choice, then the galaxy still gets saved, somehow, with the council, and most of the citadel intact, albeit, with a lot of lost human lives. Though this sacrifice doesn't really carry any weight in the game because it doesn't affect the player directly, so it doesn't really matter to the player. It would have been a better decision to have those human lives be of people you knew personally, or even your crew.
But the Paragon choice, in the game it is a sure-fire way to be successful in the decision-making portion of the game, but in real-life, the"paragon", or just choice, may not actually be the right choice. In real-life, you can't save everyone by making the paragon decision. You have to learn that sometimes, sacrifice is required, and to think otherwise would be naive. The phrase, “bad things happen to good people” comes to mind.
Although this is a very "renegade" outlook, but if you think about it, many paragon decisions, which I can almost guarantee will end up helping somewhere, have the massive potential to be the most disastrous.
The Rachni Queen
The paragon choice is to let her go, but with the current knowledge you have at the moment of the decision, it seems pretty dumb to let the mother of the creatures who have spent the entire mission trying to kill you, and part of a species,who, for the entire duration that the galaxy has known them, have been only hostile. She may say that it wasn't their fault, and they aren't really like that, but I get the impression that she might say anything and everything to persuade you to let her live, since you are the one that controls her fate.
Though killing her is technically genocide, they didn't seem to have a problem with it before. Besides, wasn’t killing the Thorian “technically” genocide too?
Collector Base
I personally chose to keep it, because it seems a tactical decision to use their own technology against them, after all, some of your ship upgrades were based in part on reaper technology, and it sure helped you when it counted, but now that T.I.M. is suggesting you use it for almost the same purpose , you now have something against it, your only reason seeming to be his human supremacy motivation, but really, that seems to not matter in the grand scheme of things,as you can deal with him after the galaxy is saved, or it won’t matter because everyone will be dead.
Really, that technology could end up saving you, but just because it compromises your morals, you suddenly decide that having a possible advantage over the reapers is not worth compromising your “moral integrity”
X57: Bring Down the Sky
I will admit that this was a tough decision to make, but I think the logical choice was to go after Balak. Though in the process, you get 2 people killed, if you release him, he will probably kill more than that, a lot more.
Kasumi: Stolen Memory
The paragon will let her keep the greybox, while renegade and neutral will destroy it. Considering that Keiji himself advised her to destroy it, with the knowledge of how she would treasure the memories, he himself states that the information will harm her.
Illos
Not really a decision, but dialogue. When Vigil tells you how he shut down “non-essential” staff pods. The Paragon says “That’s monstrous!”, while the renegade “It was necessary”. This seems to further my assumptions that paragon is naïve, as if Vigil had kept all the staff alive, those Prothean scientist might not have made it to the Citadel to tweak it, thus giving the rest of the future galaxy a fighting chance against the reapers. The renegade understands this, the paragon probably would have doomed the future galaxy had they been in charge.
Paragon seems to be a synonym for naïve, while renegade is simply a realist. You get renegade points simply for stating the truth (i.e. “we can’t help them now”). I just really bothers me morality seems to outweigh logic at some
points. Sometimes, being ruthless is the only way to get the job done, and I just really wish that at some point, choosing the "paragon" choice will end up screwing you over at some point.
Sorry for thewall of text, but I’ve been thinking about this a lot. If there was anything I missed, or anything that is inaccurate,I would love to know. If you don't agree with what I have posted, I would love to hear why.
Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 26 mai 2010 - 03:25 .
Nightwriter wrote...
Zulu_DFA wrote...
Nightwriter wrote...
Do you mean the "let them die" one or the "focus on Sovereign" one? Cuz one can be right but the other sort of isn't.
It returns the samre result. Both are right. They are the same one choice, just wrapped into different words, that give you a slightly different karma. But your own personal karma has nothing to do with the "right" and "wrong".
Well it's the intent that's important, I think. One is letting them die for a reason and the other is letting them die for no real identified reason.
It's like let them die because I'm a dick, or let them die because the rest of the galaxy is more important.
Nightwriter wrote...
Think about it - they give us more
examples for why renegade isn't always wrong than they do examples for
why paragon isn't always right.
Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 03:37 .
Lemonwizard wrote...
The problem with the morality system is it's not even really a choice. You solve exactly the same problems and there's no situation where one works and the other does not. It would be much more interesting if there were actually problems that could be solved only by violence or problems that could be solved only by cooperation, but as it stands you win either way and thus it's not a choice of how far you're willing to go to get the job done (as it should be), but with what kind of style would you like to press your "I win no matter what" button.
Zulu_DFA wrote...
The Paragon is always wrong.
Because
The Paragon fails
To
Shoot first, ask questions later,
To
Kill'em all and let God sort'em out,
Because
Better safe, than sorry.
Alphyn wrote...
If you save the Council, you've killed millions of humans, and look like a naive dumb-ass who can't put his/her feelings beside him/her. The Council is grateful, but I doubt the millions of now-widows are.
You did not kill millions of humans.Alphyn wrote...
There is no right or wrong decision; if you want to concentrate on Sovereign and kill the Council because you feel it's the right decision, by all means, do it. You'll be made out to be a human-centric douche-bag and you won't be able to throw around the word "Spectre" any more.
If you save the Council, you've killed millions of humans, and look like a naive dumb-ass who can't put his/her feelings beside him/her. The Council is grateful, but I doubt the millions of now-widows are.
The choice is yours.
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