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"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!": The Donnell Udina Support Thread

Débuté par Guest_LuckyIronAxe_* , mai 26 2010 09:07

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#51
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 10:47

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

They could start to supply Batarians whit weapons and ships to carry out guerilla war against humans (enemy of my enemy is my friend after all) forcing Allaice to divert more and more forces to protect raided colonies when Hierarchy itself could prepared himself starting preparations for new war against humans.

Batarians already proven during Blitz that for them leaving schorched earth behind is not a slightest problem...


The batarians got obliterated during the Blitz. They haven't been a significant danger outside the Terminus Systems ever since Torfan was destroyed. In any case increased raids will change nothing; the human fleet doesn't park itself around vulnerable colonies, or did you forget the tenets of Alliance military doctrine? If the turians were going to go to war they'd have done it already. The longer they wait the stronger humanity gets. They can fund proxies all they want, all they'll be doing is pissing us off and making it worse for themselves. He who holds the Citadel rules the galaxy, and guess who holds it?

Asheer_Khan wrote...

You known.... banhammer hit can be paifull so BE CAREFULL


Have you nothing else to say? You know if you were willing to appease me the way you advocate appeasing other hostile entities maybe we could live on friendlier terms with one another. So how about it?

Modifié par Shandepared, 26 mai 2010 - 10:50 .

#52
Guest_LuckyIronAxe_*
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 10:52

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

One problem with this analogy is that the Alliance(China) is far more powerful then the would-be invading Batarian(Japanese) forces, while back in 1937 the Chinese(Alliance) who were the country that was being invaded were far weaker than the Japanese(Batarian) invading forces.

True, however there is on catch there.

This attack only happened in Human lead Council (and perhaps all human Council but i am not quite sure there) scenario where Turians already withdraw thier support for new Council.

They could start to supply Batarians whit weapons and ships to carry out guerilla war against humans (enemy of my enemy is my friend after all) forcing Allaice to divert more and more forces to protect raided colonies when Hierarchy itself could prepared himself starting preparations for new war against humans.

Batarians already proven during Blitz that for them leaving schorched earth behind is not a slightest problem...

Well after Udina took charge over the new Alien council in my personal shep's game, the news spoke of Turian arms build ups and stuff like that. Sounds like a cold war to me, with the Batarians as Cuba and the Turian Hierarchy as Russia providing them with equipment and arms. I love your train of though by the way Kahn, it's making me think.

Modifié par LuckyIronAxe, 26 mai 2010 - 10:53 .

#53
Asheer_Khan
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 10:57

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Overconfidence brought to ruins many empires in earth history, and apparently Turians learn thier lesson from F. C War that haste attack not always is a good solution.

They just want to made humanity feel safe and drop thier guard down so they will give humanity her 5 minutes of fame and just sit back (while undergoing preperation to final confrontation) and see how humans will actually uses that time.

So when time to attack will come Udina and his so called "Council" will realize that they are alone against united against them galaxy...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 26 mai 2010 - 10:59 .

#54
Onyx Jaguar
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 10:59

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

Overconfidence brought to ruins many empires in earth history, and apparently Turians learn thier lesson from F. C War that haste attack not always is a good solution.

They just want to made humanity feel safe and drop thier guard down
They will give humanity her 5 minutes of fame and just sit back and see how humans will actually uses that time.

So when time to attack will come Udina and his so called "Council" will realize that they are alone against united against them galaxy...


This could be said of whoever is in power at the end of ME 1, the Council, human Council, almost any mash up with the exception of possibly an Anderson lead human leaning council.

#55
Guest_LuckyIronAxe_*
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 10:59

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That's until the Reapers show up, then Udina and the Turians will just feel silly won't they.

#56
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 10:59

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

Overconfidence brought to ruins many empires in earth history, and apparently Turians learn thier lesson from F. C War that haste attack not always is a good solution.


What makes you say that? They got stomped by the geth, fact. The Citadel was captured by humanity, fact. The Systems Alliance is now the dominant power in the galaxy, fact. I'm afraid the turians can't take us in a stand-up fight and that isn't going to change. They are already at their peak but humanity already eclipses them and is still growing. Time is on our side, not on theirs.

#57
Massadonious1
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:00

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Shandepared wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

A politician (at least modern day ones) are elected to serve the will of the people. The only person he serves is himself. Anything he does and says is to further his own influence. His contempt at serving as Anderson's "advisor" makes this very apparent.


I'd love to see some proof of that if you can find any.


I've been following politics at the local, state, and federal level since before I could vote. I was a community organizer (not sure if that is the proper description, I made phone calls, knocked on doors and such) for the Obama campaign a couple of years ago. I know a weasly politician when I see one. As a matter of fact, Udina reminds me a lot of Joe Lieberman.

Shandepared wrote...

The batarians got obliterated during the Blitz. They haven't been a significant danger outside the Terminus Systems ever since Torfan was destroyed.


If they aren't any significant threat, then what are we doing worrying about some random mirror satellite thingie that may or may not be anything in the first place?
 

#58
Nightwriter
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:00

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So many posts I do not know where to begin...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Bah. Anderson trusts Shepard for a lot of reasons.


Such as? I think you're talking out your rear.


Christ, for someone who just told someone else to read the reasons they already listed in their post, I'd think you wouldn't need to be told to do the same. I gave you three reasons! Right after the quote in question.

Also, to the other stuff you wrote: Udina was motivated by his own personal interests of self-promotion, and that's why he sold you down the river. Don't glorify his motivations as if he was thinking of anyone other than himself. He used you until you became a problem, then he disposed of you. This does not inspire trust or respect, and these are the traits which I value most. You can say politicians don't need to have these traits, to which I will reply I don't want a politician in that role then. Udina has proven that being a "politician" is unhealthy for humanity right now.

Shandepared wrote...

How dare he not fall to his knees and praise Shepard like everyone else does.


An exaggeration, you scurvy cur. No one bows down in praise of Shepard everywhere. Shepard gets a lot of heat and you know it.

Onyx Jaguar wrote…

I wasn't making the case for Udina grounding Shepard, I was making the case for him siding with the Council on grounding Shepard. The Virmire incident looks very bad in the eyes of the Council. Udina might have approved but it is still a mark against Shepard in the eyes of the Council. I was also referring the Terminus system in regards, I should have separated those two points as the rest line up with Udina and the Council together.


But Udina wasn't siding with the Council on grounding the Normandy because it wasn't the Council's decision to ground the Normandy, it was his. He went that extra step to make himself look good. Also I don't think Virmire was as bad in the eyes of the Council as all that. They even say your methods on Virmire were effective.

Onyx Jaguar wrote…

True, but again the Council would not have budged and I do not begrudge Udina for siding with them in this instance when he knows that most likely nothing will come out of siding against them.


Siding with the Council did not have to mean grounding the Normandy, though. He could've handled it better.

#59
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:02

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Massadonious1 wrote...


I've been following politics at the local, state, and federal level since before I could vote. I was a community organizer (not sure if that is the proper description, I made phone calls, knocked on doors and such) for the Obama campaign a couple of years ago.


Hahahahahah.... now that's funny.


Massadonious1 wrote...


If they aren't any significant threat, then what are we doing worrying about some random mirror satellite thingie that may or may not be anything in the first place?
 


We're not worrying about it; we're doing something about it.

#60
Zulu_DFA
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:02

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Shandepared wrote...

He's a better man than Captain "kissass" Anderson.


Udina and Anderson having some off-duty time, smoking illicit cigars, drinking brandy, patting something blue tucked by their shaggy sides.

Udina: Tell me, Anderson, that "Kickass" nickname of yours... It was Saren who called you that first, wasn't it?

Anderson: [punches Udina in the mouth]

Udina: Knew it! [passes out]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 11:06 .

#61
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:06

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Nightwriter wrote...

Also, to the other stuff you wrote: Udina was motivated by his own personal interests of self-promotion, and that's why he sold you down the river.


Show me your evidence of that because I haven't seen any. He never once in the games ever talks about his own power or importance. He is always talking about what is best for humanity. It is his job to look out for the political interests of the human race. 
 
You're projecting your assumptions on to him without any evidence to back them up. I gave you several examples of why none of that is true. The reason you feel used is because you think you are important, you think Udina "owese you something". Here's the cold fact: you aren't and he doesn't. Udina's obligation is to the collective human species, not to Commander Shepard. He'll help you when doing so furthers human interests but if he feels you are an obstacle to that he'll give you the cold soldier. He's unbiased.

Nightwriter wrote...

But Udina wasn't siding with the Council on grounding the Normandy because it wasn't the Council's decision to ground the Normandy, it was his.


Try reading between the lines sometime. It is clear from that entire confrontation what the Council wanted. They nodded to Udina and he gave it to them. His motivations are clearly explained, "There are serious political implications here, Shepard. Humanity has made great  gains thanks to you, but now you're becoming more trouble than you're worth."

#62
Zulu_DFA
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:11

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LuckyIronAxe wrote...

Well after Udina took charge over the new Alien council in my personal shep's game, the news spoke of Turian arms build ups and stuff like that.


All-Human Council and Human-led Council outcomes of ME1 are regarded as one in ME2.

#63
Asheer_Khan
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:20

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Shandepared wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Overconfidence brought to ruins many empires in earth history, and apparently Turians learn thier lesson from F. C War that haste attack not always is a good solution.


What makes you say that? They got stomped by the geth, fact. The Citadel was captured by humanity, fact. The Systems Alliance is now the dominant power in the galaxy, fact. I'm afraid the turians can't take us in a stand-up fight and that isn't going to change. They are already at their peak but humanity already eclipses them and is still growing. Time is on our side, not on theirs.



Whit all due respect but you are clasic example of absolute overconfidence.

Somehow in this same way thinking USA  before Pearl Harbor (taking out of files all conspiracy theories) .
USA was absolute sure that thier dominance on Pacyfic in unchallengeable until Japan brutally wake them up from this dream.

Look at the strategic assets.

Turians have similar to pre Pearl Harbor USA industrial capacity whit many shipyards able to reinforce any looses in rather short time.

Alliance on the other side is in similar to Japan situation.
Still struggling whit colonization effort constantly hinder by different bigger and smaller disasters and  Arcturus Station is thier key military base for Citadel area.

Actually rising up level of hostilites within Citadel Space can pretty well backfired at overall look of the new Council on Earth too.

Remeber in ME 1  message about freezing up colonial enrolment after Eden Prime?
That was great indication what could happened when every potential planetary settlement plan will be overshadowed by high risk of potential attack and Council will reject any plea for increasing security staff in such colonies because they would need more and more staff to keep Citadel in check.

No, despite your claims humanity will never outmatch any major galactic civilization from one simple reason.
They lacking of necessary resources to achieve total dominance when former Council races plainly "swimm" in such.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 26 mai 2010 - 11:22 .

#64
Zulu_DFA
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:21

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Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

But Udina wasn't siding with the Council on grounding the Normandy because it wasn't the Council's decision to ground the Normandy, it was his.


Try reading between the lines sometime. It is clear from that entire confrontation what the Council wanted. They nodded to Udina and he gave it to them. His motivations are clearly explained, "There are serious political implications here, Shepard. Humanity has made great  gains thanks to you, but now you're becoming more trouble than you're worth."


This "Udina grounded the Normandy" is one of the greatest myths of Mass Effect. Although it leaves a plot black hole in the story, because at that point Udina (Alliance ambassador) had absolutely zero authority over the Normandy (Council spectre's ship, transfered from Alliance 63rd Scout Flotilla to the Citadel Protection Force or something).

But Udina is not your favorite cookie-treatin' auntie. He is a choleric polititian. So people hate him and won't see reason.



Here is an "Uncle Donnel" moment for the haters:

Image IPB

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 11:58 .

#65
Onyx Jaguar
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:23

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Homehow in this same way thinking USA before Pearl Harbor (taking out of files all conspiracy theories) .

USA was absolute sure that thier dominance on Pacyfic in unchallengeable until Japan brutally wake them up from this dream.




In the end the US proved pretty damn dominant in spite of what Japan did to them.

#66
Zulu_DFA
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:38

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

Somehow in this same way thinking USA  before Pearl Harbor (taking out of files all conspiracy theories) .
USA was absolute sure that thier dominance on Pacyfic in unchallengeable until Japan brutally wake them up from this dream.


USA public was absolutely sure of the US dominance in the Pacific. So the war against Japan for that dominance couldn't be justified before the public, unless the Japs delivered the first blow. That's the problem of every leadership in the so called democracies. They need to sway the public into everithing they do. Hence the conspiracy theories, that are easily defeated by ridiculing everyone supporting them as tin foil hat morons.

But, hell, even Stalin, being the dictator he was, set up "border incidents" and "provocations" before going to war with Finland.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 11:41 .

#67
Asheer_Khan
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:42

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Funny things that Fins did kick his butt back to Moscow anyway ^_^. (that was by the way second war lost by Russians in post WW I times).

#68
Massadonious1
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:46

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I'm not sure what kind of "evidence" you want. I don't have some super secret memo from BioWare saying that this is how they wanted Udina to be portrayed. All I have is my personal interpretations of what he said and did throughout both games, to which you'll counter with your own biased interpretations. I don't see the point.

And yeah, we sure did something about it. We sent a squad of ME1 Shepards to perform a pre-emptive strike against something that may not even be a legitimate threat.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 26 mai 2010 - 11:47 .

#69
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:48

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

No, despite your claims humanity will never outmatch any major galactic civilization from one simple reason.
They lacking of necessary resources to achieve total dominance when former Council races plainly "swimm" in such.


They already do and those resources are growing. It's interesting that you should make comparisons to the pacific theatre in WW2 for two reasons:

The Japanese considered Pearl Harbor a failure because they did not destroy the U.S. fleet.

It was the United States that was considered a sleeping giant.

Arcturus Station could be considered our pearl-harbor. If the turians want to keep us busy fighting proxies then they won't be doing themselves any favors. Our fleet is one of rapid response, if they're attacking proxies then our fleet won't be sitting vulnurable anywhere. In the mean time it is getting larger and more sophisticated. We have several stealth frigates now and the technology from the Collector base will grant us an even bigger edge. Not to mention that we control access to the Citadel.

It simply isn't worth the trouble to go to war with us. As I've said repeatedly; the time for that has come and gone. When we first seized power they should have attacked. Instead they did nothing as humanity integrated itself as the center authority in galactic affairs.

Your statements contradict canon.

Massadonious1 wrote...
 
All I have is my personal interpretations of what he said and did throughout both games, to which you'll counter with your own biased interpretations.


Your personal interpretations are garbage.

Massadonious1 wrote...

And yeah, we sure did something about it. We sent a squad of ME1 Shepards to perform a pre-emptive strike against something that may not even be a legitimate threat.


Better safe than sorry and hell, even the turians agree this system can be weaponized.

Modifié par Shandepared, 26 mai 2010 - 11:50 .

#70
Massadonious1
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:54

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Shandepared wrote...
Your personal interpretations are garbage.


So are yours. They don't count as "proof" either.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 26 mai 2010 - 11:54 .

#71
Zulu_DFA
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:54

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Asheer_Khan wrote...

Funny things that Fins did kick his butt back to Moscow anyway ^_^. (that was by the way second war lost by Russians in post WW I times).


Funny thing, you're in the false again. Soviets won.

They took heavy losses, about 4 times as much as the Finns. At least half of them non-combat related, though - it was very cold that winter, you know... Finns managed to stall them for 3 months, but finally the Soviets broke through, and imposed the peace terms. Not as bad as initially intended, but they took territories. And secured Finland being the worst of Hitler's allies in WW2 (Finland wasn't even considered Axis) and later neutral in the Cold war.

#72
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:59

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Massadonious1 wrote...

So are yours. They don't count as "proof" either.


I'm not interpreting anything; I am merely corroborating what is stated in the game. At no point is it ever said or implied that Udina is self-serving. You feel that he is because you don't like the man on a personal level. That's why your interpretation is garbage. You can't even point to one phrase or action as proof that Udina is out for himself and not just out to do his job. You see him do something and you make a lot of assumptions about it. I don't; when Udina takes an action I look at what the consquences and stated motivatiosn are. So far they've been completely understandable and reasonable.

#73
Asheer_Khan
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 12:06

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Funny things that Fins did kick his butt back to Moscow anyway ^_^. (that was by the way second war lost by Russians in post WW I times).


Funny thing, you're in the false again. Soviets won.

They took heavy losses, about 4 times as much as the Finns. At least half of them non-combat related, though - it was very cold that winter, you know... Finns managed to stall them for 3 months, but finally the Soviets broke through, and imposed the peace terms. Not as bad as initially intended, but they took territories. And secured Finland being the worst of Hitler's allies in WW2 (Finland wasn't even considered Axis) and later neutral in the Cold war.


This was more like pyrrean victory for Moscow since they don't realized main goal of that war aka total conquest of Finnland .

#74
Raphael diSanto
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 12:08

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Massadonious1 wrote.... I know a weasly politician when I see one. As a matter of fact, Udina reminds me a lot of Joe Lieberman.
 


All politicians are weasly. It's part of the job description.

But Shandepard has it to rights. Anderson is right for all the wrong reasons. Udina is wrong for the right reasons. 

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 26 mai 2010 - 12:08 .

#75
Massadonious1
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 12:15

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The justification for him doing something like grounding the Normandy is a personal opinion. There is no "right" answer in that scenario.
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