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[Asheer_Khan]

Key question is:



"How many preemptive strikes can be commencing before someone decided that we do one strike too much?"



I don't known why i still have weird feelings that in Terminus Systems is something more than bunch of slavers and pirates which could be easy taken under check by Citadel forces.



This whole "No we will not act because we can trigger war whit terminus systems" Council stance is illogical IF we take under scope Batarians, Vorcha or other minor species.

So what if there is some kind powerful civilization deep inside Terminus Systems at not possibly friendly terms whit the Council?



Of course so far there are no indication of such but in ME 1 there was no indication about Vorcha too (we known about Batarians but Vorcha were species incognitus) so maybe that mysterious species Raloy (SP?) is that trump card keeping Council from more active actions against terminus?



I known that this could be blind shoot but there MUST BE more valid reasons of this absolute denial any requests to act than fear of pirates and slavers...

[Dean_the_Young]

Massadonious1 wrote...

The justification for him doing something like grounding the Normandy is a personal opinion. There is no "right" answer in that scenario.

No, the justification for him grounding the Normandy is his legitimate job. There is a right option for someone in his position, and that was it.

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

when Udina takes an action I look at what the consquences and stated motivatiosn are. So far they've been completely understandable and reasonable.

Udina's goals:

Advance Alliance interests (1);

                  in order to do that,

Put Alliance on the Council (2);

                  in order to do that,

Put a Human in the Spectres (3);

                  while doing all that

Not alienate the aliens (4).


Udina's actions:

Selects Shepard as candidate for Spectres, comes up with ideas to expose Saren, agitates the Council into finally making Shepard a spectre to get out of their confused situation. Serves (3).

Deals with the pilitical fallout whil you are rampaging in the Attican Traverse, blowing all the stuff up. When you are about to go into the Tereminus Systems and the Council tells you it ain't happening, and you are about to say something stupid, he shuts you up and informes you that it is decided that for the sake of the Galactic piece, the Normandy is grounded, so that you couldn't go on blowing the stuff up. Serves (4). - note, how convenient it is that due to his compliance, the Council does not not impound the Normandy for good and not trasfer her to another dock (or gave her to anoither spectre to fly around) in which case it would be way more difficult to hijack her.

After the Battle of the Citadel, puts strike the deal with the Council to admit Humans to full membership / or if the Council is dead goes even further. Serves (2)

All of the above serves (1).

In ME2, when Shepard shows up after 2 years and works with the "avowed enemy", he makes it clear that Shepard not welcome on the Citadel, because there are "serious implications". Serves (4), again. But since Shepard is investigating the missing colonies and also is as concerned about the Reapers as ever, that's OK and serves (1).


Where is Udina's self interest? People keep sayin it oozes fron Udina's "With my help, of course" remark. But people have no clue to what it really means. It means that Udina is freaking happy with the position he already has! He is in a very high esteem of himself, he thinks he is such a political BAMF. He even isn't dissapointed if you appoint Anderson for the Council seat. And maybe he even misses the Turian Councillor (in his own way, of course, as "a worthy opponent").

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 12:57 .

[lovgreno]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
This whole "No we will not act because we can trigger war whit terminus systems" Council stance is illogical IF we take under scope Batarians, Vorcha or other minor species.

Actualy a risk of war, even one that can be easily won, is something politicians must avoid to a great extent. War always costs a lot in terms of financial and political instability. Shepard didn't realy have any proof for "Reapers". So the actions of Udina and the Council made sense to me at least.

But your idea is interesting, Terminus is a big, lawless and uncharted place. All kinds of things can be hidden there.

[Raphael diSanto]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Key question is:

"How many preemptive strikes can be commencing before someone decided that we do one strike too much?"

I guess you'd have to ask the Salarians that, since pre-emptive strikes is what they do.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Show me your evidence of that because I haven't seen any. He never once in the games ever talks about his own power or importance. He is always talking about what is best for humanity. It is his job to look out for the political interests of the human race.

He fails to see what is best for humanity. The Reapers are coming whether his reasons for impeding me are politically reasonable or not. I cannot have a blind man at the helm when we are sailing into dangerous waters.

And proof? Seriously? He's constantly talking about himself. He's always worried about what he'll have to deal with and what things mean for him. Bioware wrote this character as an ass, they want us to dislike him and they do a great job. What's your beef?

Shandepared wrote...
 
You're projecting your assumptions on to him without any evidence to back them up. I gave you several examples of why none of that is true. The reason you feel used is because you think you are important, you think Udina "owese you something". Here's the cold fact: you aren't and he doesn't. Udina's obligation is to the collective human species, not to Commander Shepard. He'll help you when doing so furthers human interests but if he feels you are an obstacle to that he'll give you the cold soldier. He's unbiased.

Please, Shand. I hardly think I'm important. Udina gets in my way. He's a fine character, the guy you love to hate. I appreciate the value of the role he plays, the slimy politician - he's done very well imo.

I don't think Udina owes me jack sh*t, lol. You can't condemn me for disliking Udina because he lacks traits I personally value anymore than you can condemn yourself for liking Udina because he has traits you value. He's an ass. You like that. It fills your heart with warmth.

Shandepared wrote...

Try reading between the lines sometime. It is clear from that entire confrontation what the Council wanted. They nodded to Udina and he gave it to them. His motivations are clearly explained, "There are serious political implications here, Shepard. Humanity has made great  gains thanks to you, but now you're becoming more trouble than you're worth."

And I think Udina's more trouble than he's worth. Anderson helps me more and I need that most right now. I need someone I can trust advocating the fight against the Reapers.

I'm sorry, but Udina is just too politically inclined. I need someone who has one eye on politics and the other eye on the Reapers. The truth is, I don't care what his reasons were. I need someone who will believe me.

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Funny things that Fins did kick his butt back to Moscow anyway . (that was by the way second war lost by Russians in post WW I times).

Funny thing, you're in the false again. Soviets won.

They took heavy losses, about 4 times as much as the Finns. At least half of them non-combat related, though - it was very cold that winter, you know... Finns managed to stall them for 3 months, but finally the Soviets broke through, and imposed the peace terms. Not as bad as initially intended, but they took territories. And secured Finland being the worst of Hitler's allies in WW2 (Finland wasn't even considered Axis) and later neutral in the Cold war.

This was more like pyrrean victory for Moscow since they don't realized main goal of that war aka total conquest of Finnland .

Pyrrhic victory is still victory. As for the goal of the total conquest of Finland, you are in the false again. Moscow's goal at the time was still total conquest of the whole world (aka planetary Communist revolution). So, such small thing as Finland and a hundred thousand dead soldiers were of little consequence in the grand scheme of things. And to Stalin the Winter War proved one thing: the Red Army is capable of impossible. To understand what I mean, just try to live the whole next winter outdoors in the forest, preferably in Finland.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 12:58 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...
I need someone who will believe me.

You have such a man. He is a bit illusive, but nobody ever believed you that much.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

He fails to see what is best for humanity.

 
Give examples.

Again? How many times...?

Look, humanity is under attack. There's a threat out there. Udina refuses to see it. That's all that matters to me.

Shandepared wrote...

No, he's always complaining about how this or that is bad for humanity. That's what he means whenever he says, "Serious political implications."

Really? Cuz I'm pretty sure he tells me to not f*ck up because it will mean extra work for him. Me, me, me.

Shandepared wrote...

My heart is filled with blood and it is heated by my body, not any external source.

So many comments come to mind I don't know where to begin...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

And I think Udina's more trouble than he's worth.

You've yet to provide any reasoning as to why this would be true.

Udina is more trouble than he's worth because so far he has hindered the fight against the Reapers more than he has helped it. And anyway, I need someone I know has my back.

I'm sure once we're all skewered on husk spikes with Reapers roving around everywhere and the galaxy in ruins we'll all sit back and praise Udina for how practical and politically justifiable his reasons were.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

He fails to see what is best for humanity.

 
Give examples.

Again? How many times...?

Look, humanity is under attack. There's a threat out there. Udina refuses to see it. That's all that matters to me.

Udina serves the Alliance. The Alliance likes to brand itself as the Humanity's champion, but the colonies in the Terminus Systems defy that! They went there to get away from the Alliance, and in doing so, they undermine the Alliance's diplomatic capacity to stand up for Humanity, because, the Council prohibits its associates from any activity in the Terminus Systems! They gave the Alliance a mandate to colonize the Attican Traverse, at the Alliance's own risk, but they can't be happy with some Human mormons going into the Terminus. The colonies in the Terminus Systems are not the Alliance. They are against the Alliance. They are freaking troublemakers! The Alliance would be imprudent to take any official action to support and protect their own separatists, especially if the Turian Councillor is still calling the shots on the Citadel.

That's what the Collectors probably knew all to well, and why they were targetting exclusively the breakaway colonies in the Terminus Systems.

Cerberus is another deal for this matter. As the Alliance's intelligence that has been convenieтtly declared as not being under the Alliance's control, it's their duty to go there and investigate the situation. Not because of pity for the missing human baddies, but because of the greater things everyone (I mean the government) knows are happening.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 01:27 .

[Nightwriter]

... I was talking about the Reaper threat in general, and not the Collectors? Sorry, I meant humanity as part of the galaxy. Which is under threat of the Reapers. In general. Shand just said Udina had humanity's best interests at heart and I meant if the Reapers kill everyone humanity will be... dead.

[Sailears]

Collider wrote...

Udina delivered his speech at the end of the game better than Anderson did.

I agree with that. He really drives those words home.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

... I was talking about the Reaper threat in general, and not the Collectors? Sorry, I meant humanity as part of the galaxy. Which is under threat of the Reapers. In general. Shand just said Udina had humanity's best interests at heart and I meant if the Reapers kill everyone humanity will be... dead.

When Udina says something, like "Humanity will prevail", he means "the Alliance will prevail", because that's the officilal Alliance doctrine, that it is the sole representation of Humanity in the Galaxy. And Udina is a high-ranking Alliance official. And you play as Shepard, a (former) mid-ranking Alliance officer, so you should at least role play some respect towards Udina.

Now, if you say that at this point Udina has apperently forgotten about his fancy speech in the end of ME1, and about the Reapers altogether, and therefore is a totally redundant ****** (even if he had some reason to exist earlier), than I'll counter this notion by the fact that everyone has to do their part. Shepard does his best when he blows the stuff up, and at this point he receives all the back-up he needs for that from Cerberus, which makes it unnecessary for Udina to come up with anything to this end.

And if you were looking for a "thank you Shepard for everything you've done and is yet about to do" speech, than you were looking in the wrong place. You should go check you e-mail, I'm sure you've got a dozen new "thank you" e-mails from the honest simple minded innocents you keep protecting from the Reapers on the daily basis.

Oh, and if you expect that in the future every man of some weight should be an uber-idealistic paragon with a visible and tangible white-blue aura of holyness about them, even though in all their modesty they will try it keep as hardly noticeable as possible, you are sadly mistaken.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 02:14 .

[Nightwriter]

Udina is a great character. I can see they wrote him to be the ass_hole, and he provides great conflict in that regard.

In fact I think they make him too much of an ass. He's too easy to hate - I'd like to see some more dialogue where he explains himself and his side more.

It's only when people start saying he is a better man than Anderson that I object. A better politician, perhaps, but not a better man, no. Hell, no.

[Collider]

Indeed night. If we learned that Udina ran a charity or orphanage or something, that would go a long way. Like I said, we need to have Udina have some successes. Otherwise they missed out on what could have been an even better character.

[Nightwriter]

Exactly. I'd dig it if I found out he had a daughter or something, for instance. Something that makes him a bit more human and a bit more sympathetic.

[Havoc10K]

think it's time for my answer in this matter, l played ME2 using my old save game from ME1 and l saved the council (dunno why, their uptight asses are simply annoying) l'm not liking udina one bit eighter, he is a pain in the ass to me as well, l'd shoot him outright, but if yo uwant to know why the council doesn't take action against slavers and pirates of the terminus systems it's easy.



As long as they are there the deeper threats stay at bay, if there is a species that can be a threat to Citadel Space, the ywill have to go through the terminus systems, obliterate the pirates and slavers, who wil lcome for help eventually and bring tons of research and constructive information on the enemy at hand, you could say tha tCitadel Council uses the terminus systems as first line of defense against unknown, in that case it is rather smart not to ponder there too much, l'm betting there are a few spectres in there observing the situation and monitoring it, feeding the council, after all pirates and slavers arent much of a trheat to any Citadel Space warship, if need me, Turians, Asari, Salarians and now Humans as well, will launch a counterattack wich is a formidable army if you ask me, saying they don't want to start a war is logical, because if they subdued them, sooner or later if any threat emerges they would have to sacrifice a lot of resources to help out, for them it's better to stay on defense rather than go offensive.



Simple combat tactics really.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Exactly. I'd dig it if I found out he had a daughter or something, for instance. Something that makes him a bit more human and a bit more sympathetic.

The fact that you need sympathetic hooks suggests you're far more interested in judging someone by how likeable they are, as opposed to what they actually do.

Udina's an unsympathetic character, it's true. He was made to be that way: he's irratible and focused entirely on his job, which in some ways runs counter to yours. He doesn't agree with you often, is equally hostile in response to any challenge, and is far too sure of himself to bother asking your opinion. He's also ruthless and more concerned with his goal (his job and the cause behind it) than personal attachments. Most unforgivably, he doesn't believe you about the Reapers prior to Sovereign's attack, and takes measures to keep you from harming yourself and humanity.

Udina is, in short, a demonstration of a Renegade politician (as opposed to a soldier). And most unforgivably, he's a Renegade not inclined to seek your favor (like Wrex) or be ambivilant about you (like Aria).




Udina's biggest flaw, in my mind, was the about face he seemingly pulled from the end of Mass Effect 1, where he acknowledged the Reapers, to ME2, where it appears he forgot them. Now, maybe I need to check whether he's actually willingly blinded himself to their existence like the Council, or simply hasn't made it a priority like Anderson would try and fail to do. If there's someone who I could expect to keep a public secret but quietly aim to move people in a direction, it would be Udina and balancing progress towards fighting the Reapers with the need to keep aliens happy.

But like I said, I can't remember if he's gone back to denying the Reapers or not. If he's gone back to denying them, that's a real weakness of writing. If he simply has a difference of method, and especially has to balance doubters, that's far more understandable.

[Nightwriter]

This is a videogame. It is fiction. I like to talk about these things from a writing perspective. Writing is about emotion, it's about what we feel. From a writing perspective Udina was written as an unlikable character. I think his character could've flourished more if we were made to feel slightly more conflicted. Shades of gray.

[Asheer_Khan]

Udina did indirect "dismissed" Reaper part of Tali's evidence and if not fact that those evidences were crucial for nailing Saren as responsible for Eden Prime massacre somehow i doubt that he would even brought that aspect before Council.



Moreover it was Anderson not Udina who answer at the question about reapers asked by Salarian Councilor.

For Udina one thing was important... make Saren pay for Eden Prime and earliest fail to bring Anderson to the Spectres.

For him personal revenge clouded real threat arising above horizon...

[_hcope]

So many support threads, so little time in the day to get to them all.