101 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

I can see a possible choice will be that the Quarians go back home and the Geth leave to another planet for themselves, but I'd rather just want to choose to blow up one side.

Me & Legion, we're bros.

[Teknor]

Shandepared wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

On the third point, it's really a different discussion altogether which I'd prefer not to get into here. all I will say is that I don't understand how the composition of an organism determines whether it is life or not.

Is an aircraft simulator equivalent to an airplane?

If it simulates too well, it is. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...
On the third point, it's really a different discussion altogether which I'd prefer not to get into here. all I will say is that I don't understand how the composition of an organism determines whether it is life or not. Sentience is sentience and if you regress to a certain point anything can be seen as a composition of chemicals which follow specific behavioural patterns resulting in a functional organism. This can be seen in organic and the geth.

Composition matters to identity. If the Geth are nothing more than sophisticated AI, computer programs that respond to stimuli in predictable and pre-determinable ways that could be calculated on pen and paper, the claim for sentience as opposed to a complex tool is weak. Is a complex math equation that is constantly being updated alive? Is your video game character alive?

An inherency argument 'Sentience is sentience' isn't a proof: after all, the Geth may well not be sentient, merely complex VI (which no one would claim are truly intelligent). In which case, Non-sentient is non-sentient is equally valid argument.

On the second point, While I don't doubt that many geniuses have/had a tendency to pick apart and learn about childhood toys many geniuses also tend to be ostracized and unstable. This page outlines some of them as examples http://health.howstu...ad-genius5.htm. heck, even the deadliest son of a **** in space is perported to have been mentqally ill in some capacity.

Your initial claim was that she was just nuts. Now you've conceded she could be a genius, and you've even compared her to scientists who have done far more good for the human race than any number of 'healthy' persons.

Where are you going with your objection now, except in reverse?

[NICKjnp]

Let the Quarians reap what the sow. If they are dumb enough to attack the Geth then the Quarians deserve to be annihilated. The Quarians have never tried to make peace with the Geth and their first reaction to the Geth being sapient was to kill them. Now if the Geth came to my Shepard seeking help because the Quarians were attacking then my Shepard would go and save the Geth.

[CShep25]

NICKjnp wrote...

Let the Quarians reap what the sow. If they are dumb enough to attack the Geth then the Quarians deserve to be annihilated.

That's like saying if humanity made first contact with an alien species, and the US military decided to take potshots at them, then the entire human race deserves to be exterminated. The Quarian politicians are the ones making the decisions and the species shouldn't need to suffer because of three imbeciles.

It would be nice to get back to the tough decision mechanics of the first game and make you decide between the two sides, but realistically with Legion and Tali being prime examples of quarian/geth coexistence, ME3 shouldn't force us down that specific route of picking a side. I know the whole robot slave revolt thing is a story made before BSG, but due to the other BSG themes I've picked up in the ME universe, I'm pretty sure this plotline will similarly end amicably in response to the greater threat. Or at least, the opportunity for a peaceful ending. Paragons unite all the species against the reapers while renegades strengthen humanity at the expense of the other races.

[NICKjnp]

CShep25 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Let the Quarians reap what the sow. If they are dumb enough to attack the Geth then the Quarians deserve to be annihilated.

That's like saying if humanity made first contact with an alien species, and the US military decided to take potshots at them, then the entire human race deserves to be exterminated. The Quarian politicians are the ones making the decisions and the species shouldn't need to suffer because of three imbeciles.

It would be nice to get back to the tough decision mechanics of the first game and make you decide between the two sides, but realistically with Legion and Tali being prime examples of quarian/geth coexistence, ME3 shouldn't force us down that specific route of picking a side. I know the whole robot slave revolt thing is a story made before BSG, but due to the other BSG themes I've picked up in the ME universe, I'm pretty sure this plotline will similarly end amicably in response to the greater threat. Or at least, the opportunity for a peaceful ending. Paragons unite all the species against the reapers while renegades strengthen humanity at the expense of the other races.

I stand by my statement.  Every time the Quarians have thought they would win they have attacked.  The Geth have been fighting the Quarians in self defense.  The Quarians clearly hate the Geth and you hear it all throughout Tali's loyalty mission.

[Asheer_Khan]

At Freedoms Progress single MIRV mech wiped out almost entire Quarian squad, then comes Haelstrom and i get the feelings that only Tali and Kal survived... i would say rather questionable display of Quarians fight skill.



And now they want to go to War on thier outdated and barely keeping together ships (i suspect by the way that this whole theory that officila convo about Sovieregin as a Geth ship caused even further isolation of the Citadel species from any dealing whit Quarians making them even more difficult to find necessary components to maintain thier ships) against top notch Geth fleet?



It would be similar to battle Hohseeflotte (Kaiser German Navy from WW I time) against modern US Navy... well... good luck if even one Quarian ship would return from that fight.



During Tali's loyalty mission i realized something... Quarians need to be protected from themselfs because they are so obsessed whit idea of returning at thier homeworld that they become careless (Raell's experiments proves that too good) and blind for any other than military solution options...

[Dean_the_Young]

NICKjnp wrote...

CShep25 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Let the Quarians reap what the sow. If they are dumb enough to attack the Geth then the Quarians deserve to be annihilated.

That's like saying if humanity made first contact with an alien species, and the US military decided to take potshots at them, then the entire human race deserves to be exterminated. The Quarian politicians are the ones making the decisions and the species shouldn't need to suffer because of three imbeciles.

It would be nice to get back to the tough decision mechanics of the first game and make you decide between the two sides, but realistically with Legion and Tali being prime examples of quarian/geth coexistence, ME3 shouldn't force us down that specific route of picking a side. I know the whole robot slave revolt thing is a story made before BSG, but due to the other BSG themes I've picked up in the ME universe, I'm pretty sure this plotline will similarly end amicably in response to the greater threat. Or at least, the opportunity for a peaceful ending. Paragons unite all the species against the reapers while renegades strengthen humanity at the expense of the other races.

I stand by my statement.  Every time the Quarians have thought they would win they have attacked.  The Geth have been fighting the Quarians in self defense.  The Quarians clearly hate the Geth and you hear it all throughout Tali's loyalty mission.

It's good to know that you support collective genocide for the actions of a few. Consider it duly noted.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

At Freedoms Progress single MIRV mech wiped out almost entire Quarian squad, then comes Haelstrom and i get the feelings that only Tali and Kal survived... i would say rather questionable display of Quarians fight skill.

Praza's team was five young, under-armed quarians against something equivalent to an armature-class geth (a walking tank). Haelstrom was a small quarian force deep in the middle of Geth territory, not only outnumbered but also outgunned. Neither of those would be a credible source of comparable ability.

Moreover, a return to war wouldn't be a land engagement in the first place: it would be a space battle (which the Quarians might be able to win by sheer weight of numbers, at great cost) and a cyberwar battle (which they could completely win with the advances of the Alarai). Land battle would be a negligable component of it.

[incinerator950]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

At Freedoms Progress single MIRV mech wiped out almost entire Quarian squad, then comes Haelstrom and i get the feelings that only Tali and Kal survived... i would say rather questionable display of Quarians fight skill.

Praza's team was five young, under-armed quarians against something equivalent to an armature-class geth (a walking tank). Haelstrom was a small quarian force deep in the middle of Geth territory, not only outnumbered but also outgunned. Neither of those would be a credible source of comparable ability.

Moreover, a return to war wouldn't be a land engagement in the first place: it would be a space battle (which the Quarians might be able to win by sheer weight of numbers, at great cost) and a cyberwar battle (which they could completely win with the advances of the Alarai). Land battle would be a negligable component of it.

...Win with what?  They barely made a few footsteps of progress with that research, and that ended up getting the entire crew, and a few squads of marines, killed.  Considering that they do have the largest fleet in the galaxy, we still don't have an exact number of ships the Geth have in totallity.  

[Burningwolf]

Tali finds the (switch,trigger,whatever) to disable the Geth collective mind.



Yeah,in a straight up fight the quarrians will probabally get creamed.I'd expect them to know better than that.The geth computer centers that hold the data are the real tasks and targets...blow those and everything becomes easier.

[Dean_the_Young]

incinerator950 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

At Freedoms Progress single MIRV mech wiped out almost entire Quarian squad, then comes Haelstrom and i get the feelings that only Tali and Kal survived... i would say rather questionable display of Quarians fight skill.

Praza's team was five young, under-armed quarians against something equivalent to an armature-class geth (a walking tank). Haelstrom was a small quarian force deep in the middle of Geth territory, not only outnumbered but also outgunned. Neither of those would be a credible source of comparable ability.

Moreover, a return to war wouldn't be a land engagement in the first place: it would be a space battle (which the Quarians might be able to win by sheer weight of numbers, at great cost) and a cyberwar battle (which they could completely win with the advances of the Alarai). Land battle would be a negligable component of it.

...Win with what?  They barely made a few footsteps of progress with that research, and that ended up getting the entire crew, and a few squads of marines, killed.  Considering that they do have the largest fleet in the galaxy, we still don't have an exact number of ships the Geth have in totallity.  

According to Tali's father and his crew, they were within spitting distance of a major breakthrough. That is not 'barely a few steps.'

Their disaster happened because a deliberate choice was made to disregard safety procedures out of convenience. Not even necessity. Not taking needless risks would be more than enough to avoid a reoccurance.

[Asheer_Khan]

To hack large group of Geth (like Heretics) Quarians would need access to one of similar to heretics stations in order to transmit virus.

However there are many hooks in thier way to achieve this.

First and major hook - reaching of such station in first place.
I doubt that Quarians did poses ships whit close to Normandy's stealth system so entering Geth space using regular non stealthed ship would immidielty meet whit Geth counter reaction.

Second.
Assuming that Quarian commando would be able to reach such transmitter station there will meet another hindrance in form of alarm system.
Legion was able to separate each level of the heretic station limited alarm systems to certain level without causing general alert on entire station.
Quarian commando will not have such asset on thier side so even slightest trigger of alarm will brought upon them every single Geth on that station practicly dooming whole mission.

Third.

Alarm on such station will mean only one thing.
Absolute separation of the station from the Geth communication network until threat will be dealt for so even if Quarians would reach main transmitter then it's very possible that such will be completely useless for main goal because of that separation.

So in other words... such action would be real suicide mission for such commando because chances of escape from that station running in full intruder alert for them would be lower than zero...

And of course failure in such action would be mo more no less than death sentence for the Flotilla because there is no doubt that Geth would tret this as declaration of War and of course answer whit full strength power.

Heck it would be in off for Geth to just destroyed vital for flotilla supply ships and within months Migrant Fleet will turn in Ghost Fleet...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 27 mai 2010 - 06:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

To hack large group of Geth (like Heretics) Quarians would need access to one of similar to heretics stations in order to transmit virus.
...

So in other words... such action would be real suicide mission for such commando because chances of escape from that station running in full intruder alert for them would be lower than zero...

And of course failure in such action would be mo more no less than death sentence for the Flotilla because there is no doubt that Geth would tret this as declaration of War and of course answer whit full strength power.

Heck it would be in off for Geth to just destroyed vital for flotilla supply ships and within months Migrant Fleet will turn in Ghost Fleet...

No, to input a virus like the one the Heretics tried would need access to a major station. The Alarai's experiments (and the in-mission implications) were on active geth: that suggests the means of the Quarian virus would be a completely different form of attack, one that bypasses the geth active resistence to conventional hacking. A virus like that, which could corrupt active geth, could simply hack any Geth that attempts to attack the migrant fleet that's holdng back.

Don't confuse the means for one vector of attack with those of every other. That's like saying there's only one way to kill a Turian.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 mai 2010 - 07:25 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

On the third point, it's really a different discussion altogether which I'd prefer not to get into here. all I will say is that I don't understand how the composition of an organism determines whether it is life or not.

Is an aircraft simulator equivalent to an airplane?

If you're asking if piloting both gives you the same experience, then yes. If we're not at the point now, we will be in the future where you could not tell the difference.

[Lumikki]

I think it all depence what happens in ME3 in general and what choises Shepard did in ME2.
Examples of choises what could have affects:

Is Tali and Legion both loyal to you?
Is Tali exile or not?
Did You recomment attack or peace to home world situation?
Did You release the virus or destroy the geth station?

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 mai 2010 - 07:51 .

[SpectreSeven]

I'd be helping the Geth if there was a war between them, but hopefully both quarians and geth will focus on the Reaper threat

[Gundar3]

Well since its impossible for me to side with the Geth in this situation I would think the battle goes like this for Quarions:



-Shep is told of impending war and is requested to attend (for various reasons)

-Shep arrives when diplomacy is breaking down (here you get to decide who to side with or "persuade peace")

-Opening space battle (which will be an opportunity to use the Normandy again)

-Some type of ground combat, most likely an infiltration mission to upload whatever weapon was developed.

-Throw in some morale choices along the way such as will you sacrifice ships or troops/ how far are you willing to go to hunt the Geth etc.

-In the end you either minimize the loses so the Quarians can be effective against the Reapers or they retake their planet and cant contribute much... but they will still mysteriously appear and help you against the Reapers regardless.



Im guessing that will be the general flow of the questline.

[Jack Package]

I support Geth dreadnoughts obliterating enemy ships in ME 3.

[Inverness Moon]

Gundar3 wrote...

Well since its impossible for me to side with the Geth in this situation I would think the battle goes like this for Quarions:

-Shep is told of impending war and is requested to attend (for various reasons)
-Shep arrives when diplomacy is breaking down (here you get to decide who to side with or "persuade peace")
-Opening space battle (which will be an opportunity to use the Normandy again)
-Some type of ground combat, most likely an infiltration mission to upload whatever weapon was developed.
-Throw in some morale choices along the way such as will you sacrifice ships or troops/ how far are you willing to go to hunt the Geth etc.
-In the end you either minimize the loses so the Quarians can be effective against the Reapers or they retake their planet and cant contribute much... but they will still mysteriously appear and help you against the Reapers regardless.

Im guessing that will be the general flow of the questline.

It may be impossible for you to side with the geth in this situation, but it isn't impossible for me or BioWare. The idea that you'd support the quarians attacking the geth that want peace and are fully willing to return their planet to them is ludicrous. A paragon would not make that choice, and that would be too stupid for a renegade to do.

I think your idea is highly improbable, because joining the quarians in war against the geth is both a complete renegade decision and stupid at best. That implies an extreme difference in content for those who prevent the war compared to those who promote it, which BioWare would not do, imho.

Maybe you could just explain why you would not side with the geth?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 27 mai 2010 - 09:14 .

[tonnactus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

At Freedoms Progress single MIRV mech wiped out almost entire Quarian squad, then comes Haelstrom and i get the feelings that only Tali and Kal survived... i would say rather questionable display of Quarians fight skill.

Praza's team was five young, under-armed quarians against something equivalent to an armature-class geth (a walking tank). Haelstrom was a small quarian force deep in the middle of Geth territory, not only outnumbered but also outgunned. Neither of those would be a credible source of comparable ability.

They cant even get back the lab ship without shepards help...

[Annihilator27]

I think the geth will give them back their homeworld. I forgot what legion said along those lines. Like they want to give back their homeworld and are waiting for their return.Hopefully they'll put aside their differences cuz the reapers are about to open up a can of whoop ass.

Modifié par annihilator27, 27 mai 2010 - 10:59 .

[philiposophy]

I guess you'll be able to get both on your side in ME3 but if I had to pick one, it'd be the geth. The quarians were at fault for the first war, and the geth Legion comes from are uninterested in fighting, whereas significant portions of the quarians want to restart hostilities.



It also makes pragmatic sense, since the quarians will likely be obliterated if they attack the geth and the geth are already committed to defeating the Reapers.

[Dr. Megaverse]

As has ready been said several times I also think it will depend. I'm prone to siding with the Quarrians because they are the underdogs, in terms of how their living situation panned out, but I'm gonna shoot for a resolution that doesn't end up in a shooting war. Tali and Legion are both the perfect Ambassadors to foster greater communication between both species, and some back and forth here between the Geth and Quarrians will make a HUGE difference. 



It's important to remember that WE know the Geth are divided...but NOT the Quarrian leadership. They are making decisions based off the only assumptions they can back up with hard evidence, and to them that evidence is a hostile Geth. Don't forget too that the Geth from ME1 did some nasty things to encourage people to stay out of the Perseus Veil, like turning everone on a freighter into Husks and sending the ship back across the Veil. To most salient species the Geth LOOK to be a bunch of homicidal machines that need to be destroyed. 



We as the players have a unique perspective and it falls to Shepard to bring that perspective before the Quarrians and hope they will choose a peaceful resolution. Provided the Geth are willing to deal with them peacibly and honestly.  



Shepard is going to need all the warm, and cold, bodies he can get to fight the Reapers or it'll be a moot point. I'm hoping that there will be a resolution resulting in the Quarrians home world being returned, the Geth getting a better galatic rep, and there being a united front facing the Reapers.