101 réponses à ce sujet

[Samurai_Wahoo]

It should end in only one way and that way would result with a lot of scrap metal. Kill of those robots, frakking toasters.

[Inverness Moon]

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

It should end in only one way and that way would result with a lot of scrap metal. Kill of those robots, frakking toasters.

You're trolling.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not really. Calling the Geth toasters, even arguing that they aren't alive, is not trolling..



He's taking a position that you disagree with. That in itself is not trolling.

[Dean_the_Young]

tonnactus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

At Freedoms Progress single MIRV mech wiped out almost entire Quarian squad, then comes Haelstrom and i get the feelings that only Tali and Kal survived... i would say rather questionable display of Quarians fight skill.

Praza's team was five young, under-armed quarians against something equivalent to an armature-class geth (a walking tank). Haelstrom was a small quarian force deep in the middle of Geth territory, not only outnumbered but also outgunned. Neither of those would be a credible source of comparable ability.

They cant even get back the lab ship without shepards help...

A lot of people can't do things without Shepard's help, yet Shepard seems to be able to do despite being manipulated by twenty-something year olds. It's a game.

The Quarians judged that recovering the lab ship would cost too many marines. How is that a flawed decision?

[scorptatious]

I personally would want a diplomatic solution between the Quarians and the Geth as well. After all, the galaxy will have to go up against the Reapers, and Shepard will need all the help he can get.



If I were to choose a side however, I would have to side with the Quarians. Because for one thing, Tali is my LI, and also, the Quarians have been wandering around in space for a long time, and have no planet to call home. And perhaps by reclaiming thier planet, the quarians will finally have a better standing in the universe and not be looked down on by the other aliens, as there probably won't be any need for pilgrimages anymore.



Finally, as Freedom's Progress shows, the quarians are not the best fighters. They'll need Shepard's help.

[warlorejon]

Tali is my love interest also but i would have to side witht he geth. both for saving the galaxy and on moral reasons. All the geth did was ask if it had a soul and the quarians wanted to destroy them. As that admiral said," they are our children".

[Inverness Moon]

scorptatious wrote...

If I were to choose a side however, I would have to side with the Quarians. Because for one thing, Tali is my LI, and also, the Quarians have been wandering around in space for a long time, and have no planet to call home. And perhaps by reclaiming thier planet, the quarians will finally have a better standing in the universe and not be looked down on by the other aliens, as there probably won't be any need for pilgrimages anymore.

Tali is my LI also, that doesn't mean I'll side with the quarians if I think they're doing wrong. I would not allow a LI to prevent me from standing up for what is right, and war against the geth is not right.

I also don't see how regaining their home planet would have any affect on how people view the quarians, especially if it became known that they once again initiated violence against their geth creations that only wanted peace and understanding. That would certainly lower their standing in my eyes, and I'd probably think them undeserving of their planet since they seemed to have not learned from the mistakes of their ancestors 300 years past.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A lot of people can't do things without Shepard's help, yet Shepard seems to be able to do despite being manipulated by twenty-something year olds. It's a game.

The Quarians judged that recovering the lab ship would cost too many marines. How is that a flawed decision?

Shepard's code is superior, as Legion said. Also, don't meta. =P

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 28 mai 2010 - 04:40 .

[Teknor]

Shandepared wrote...

Teknor wrote...

If it simulates too well, it is. 

We already have aircraft simulators that perfectly replicate the experience of flying an airplane. Are you telling me then that those simulators are not just simulators, but that they are actual airplanes?

By perfect i understand that there is no way that you can tell the difference between simulation and real thing. Hence our aircraft simulators do not perfectly replicate the experience.

[instantdeath999]

My guess is it will be similar to Dragon Age.  Gathering armies, basically, like how you gathered team members in ME2.  I'm thinking options, of course, will be the Alliance, The Migrant Fleet, the Geth Armies, the Krogan (more specifically Wrex's clan), and the Rachni.

EDIT: Ah, I'm sorry, I misread the title as "war with the reapers".  I do think you might have to end up choosing a side, though.  Being the treehugger I am, I'll look for every possible way to end it peacefully, though.  I think the Reapers may just be the peacemaker they need.  I think each side will see each other as the lesser of two evils when face with hundreds, maybe thousands of reapers.

Modifié par instantdeath999, 28 mai 2010 - 06:25 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Teknor wrote...

If it simulates too well, it is. 

We already have aircraft simulators that perfectly replicate the experience of flying an airplane. Are you telling me then that those simulators are not just simulators, but that they are actual airplanes?

The comparison you're trying to draw just isn't logical. Geth and quarians have something important in common: sentience. The road they took to get there isn't as all that important.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 28 mai 2010 - 08:05 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

The comparison you're trying to draw just isn't logical. Geth and quarians have something important in common: sentience. The road they took to get there isn't as all that important.

One is a convincing immitation of a mind, the other is not.

Just as an aircraft simulator can never be an airplane no matter how accurately it simulates it. If you take an aircraft simulator and put it in an airplane and use it to fly the airplane then of-course you no longer have a simulator. However that isn't the question I put forth.

The aircraft simulator comparison is nonsense. Geth were designed to solve problems and do complex tasks that were dangerous to organics. They were designed to take advantage of their networks to use greater numbers to solve larger problems with more efficiency, and it just escalated from there until they "woke up." Aircraft simulators are nothing like that.

And yes, the geth network imitates the organic mind, but that just proves that they're sentient cause they're apparently following the same path as organic minds.

[KendallX23]

well some could understand the POV of quarians..millions were killed when the Geth fought back..soem quarians were children and innocent...then again..the quarians tried to kill sentient beeings and to this day they still consider the geth just slaves or toys for them to do what they want...

But after all this years u would think the quarians would have though of talking to the geth..they know they can speak...but noo..all they see is salves and beneath them...geth don't seem to want to exterminate the quarians

[Inverness Moon]

KendallX23 wrote...

well some could understand the POV of quarians..millions were killed when the Geth fought back..soem quarians were children and innocent...then again..the quarians tried to kill sentient beeings and to this day they still consider the geth just slaves or toys for them to do what they want...
But after all this years u would think the quarians would have though of talking to the geth..they know they can speak...but noo..all they see is salves and beneath them...geth don't seem to want to exterminate the quarians

Well clearly not all quarians feel the same about the Geth. Daro'Xen wants to enslave them again (****), Han'Gerrel wants to go to war and wipe them out. And Zaal'Koris considers the geth the children of the quarians (I agree) and wants peace and probably co-existence.

Edit: Also lets compare how organic and geth minds are represented. I compare individual geth to brain cells, on different scales obviously. Where it takes billions and a specific configuration in organics to achieve sentience, but a sufficient number for geth to achieve sentience. If I were to delete 10% of the geth that make up Legion, he would not be the same, assuming he does not loose sentience entirely. If I were to cut out 10% of a human brain, assuming the person doesn't drop dead right there, they would be severely damaged and most likely loose all awareness and end up in a vegetative state. There is obviously much less leeway with organic minds than with geth minds, by nature of design.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 28 mai 2010 - 08:33 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

The aircraft simulator comparison is nonsense.

How is it nonsense? The statement I was responding to was one that said that a perfect simulation is equivalent to the real thing. I provided an example where that was not true. 

A simulation exists to provide an experience. Trying to compare the simulator itself to an airplane is misleading and ignores what simulators were created to do.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
 
Aircraft simulators are nothing like that.

A computer program is nothing like an organic brain.

However true or untrue that is, it is not relevant. However dissimilar geth are from organics, they still achieved sentience with their networking, which is not arguable.

[Pacifien]

Inverness Moon wrote...
And yes, the geth network imitates the organic mind, but that just proves that they're sentient cause they're apparently following the same path as organic minds.

The crux of the problem with the geth is going to be how someone interprets sentience and/or sapience and what rights sentience and/or sapience gives to those who have it.

You get someone like Admiral Xen who believes that which is built as a machine should always be treated like a machine. Or you get someone like Admiral Koris who believes the geth have developed to the point where they should be treated as equals to organics.

I don't even think the issue of sentience would even matter to someone like Xen. It'd be like ripping apart GLaDOS in Portal, it's a machine that wants to kill you and you'd rather it didn't, so just rip it apart. Only Xen takes it a step further and studies it.

As for how a quarian/geth war should be handled. I find it has considerable potential that I'd rather not see get thrown by the wayside as some side mission in ME3. Nor do I want it to detract from the story of the reaper threat. A DLC perhaps. It's own game entirely. If it was handled as a DLC, I'd see Shepard entering into the fray as a third party in the conflict, either neutral or bludgeoning a truce. As it's own game, I doubt Shepard would even be in it.

[ObserverStatus]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

The aircraft simulator comparison is nonsense.

How is it nonsense? The statement I was responding to was one that said that a perfect simulation is equivalent to the real thing. I provided an example where that was not true. 

Inverness Moon wrote...
 
Aircraft simulators are nothing like that.

A computer program is nothing like an organic brain.

Dude, you've been arguing with anyone who calls Geth "alive" for months now.  Give it a rest.

[Massadonious1]

Shandepared doesn't rest. He waits.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

A simulation exists to provide an experience. Trying to compare the simulator itself to an airplane is misleading and ignores what simulators were created to do.

What does that have to do with whether or not a perfect simulation is the real thing?

What is "the real thing" to you? The geth are not organics, clearly.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

However true or untrue that is, it is not relevant.

It is absolutely relevant because do not yet know if consciousness is even possible without replicating the structures of the brain.

It is possible in the Mass Effect universe, with AI's like EDI that operate using a blue box, or purely-software based AI like the geth.

And about the geth, how do you know how similar or dissimilar to organic brains they are when they're operating in the networks they require to achieve sentience? We do not even fully understand our own brains at this point. But considering they were created by organic brains to do what organics could do, as I said, I think it is logical enough to assume there is some basic similarity.

[The Governator]

Kill the geth. They are just machines.

[The Governator]

I should have written 'Destroy the geth. They are just machines.' Someone might argue that you cannot 'kill' a machine, only a living breathing creature. I contend that power can be killed, so can an engine...and of course there are always 'kill switches'. So...kill/destroy the geth. They are just machines.