78 réponses à ce sujet

[Mandaloe IV]

I told the fleet to attack soverin. I got +8 parragon and +9 rennagade.

[Jestina]

A paragon would try to save everyone I guess, no matter the cost. There is also a neutral choice.

[Pacifien]

I believe the neutral choice gives you no paragon or renegade points as well. Been awhile, can't really remember. However, the neutral choice pretty much guides you down the same path as the renegade. As for why leaving the Council to die is renegade, probably every paragon decision Shepard makes is about saving as many innocent lives as possible. Renegade is more about getting the job done efficiently.

Sure, redirecting the fleet to save the Destiny Ascension might seem a bit odd if you think it's a do or die situation against Sovereign, but in the end, unfortunately, it just doesn't matter. Plus some people seem to think the Destiny Ascension can be of help even in its crippled state and/or the geth around it is a significant threat.

But really, the decision disappoints me either way. Because the cinematic plays out the same way, anyone can point at whoever chose not to save the Destiny Ascension and say they let those people die and got the exact same result as the ones who did save the dreadnought. So much for choices.

[Eddo36]

Mandaloe IV wrote...

I told the fleet to attack soverin. I got +8 parragon and +9 rennagade.

You did the neutral choice. You didn't want the Council to die, but you can't afford to let Sovereign win, so you decided to concentrate on Sovereign to take it out as quickly as possible and forget about saving the Destiny Ascension. Not to mention the human casualties for saving the Destiny Ascension would be enormous.

The renegade choice however, you actually wanted the Council to die. You get a buttload of renegade points for that.

Modifié par Eddo36, 28 mai 2010 - 11:30 .

[Christmas Ape]

Eddo36 wrote...

Mandaloe IV wrote...

I told the fleet to attack soverin. I got +8 parragon and +9 rennagade.

You did the neutral choice. You didn't want the Council to die, but you can't afford to let Sovereign win, so you decided to concentrate on Sovereign to take it out as quickly as possible and forget about saving the Destiny Ascension. Not to mention the human casualties for saving the Destiny Ascension would be enormous.

The renegade choice however, you actually wanted the Council to die. You get a buttload of renegade points for that.

Though if you're just measuring lives lost vs lives lost, you save roughly four thousand lives ordering them in (~6000 lost saving the Ascension, ~10,000 crew on the Ascension).

It's a renegade decision because you consign them to death in view of reinforcements on a speculation, and really? You work directly for the Council. No wonder everyone's choked that the first human Spectre makes no move to save the Council - even given their highest honor, they watch you put human lives ahead of others.

[Eddo36]

Yeah but the Council is slow and dim witted as proven in the whole game and you would save more lives in the galaxy without them in charge. I think that's the logic.

Not to mention, the Council themselves serve the galaxy. So that means you as a Spectre serve the galaxy ultimately, it's a bigger boss than the Council.

Modifié par Eddo36, 28 mai 2010 - 12:09 .

[Christmas Ape]

The Council is cautious, politically motivated, and risk-averse; that is to say, the Council is basically every representative government ever.

And this pseudo-mystical philosophical "serve the galaxy through the Council" stuff does not impress the turian Councilor, who you might notice the other two look to to confirm their decision - not that I'm surprised the actually remarkably warlike turian "peacekeepers" quietly run things.



Your options are essentially "There's a lot of people on that ship, the Council included; break them out, we'll need the stability when this is over!", "The Council is on that ship, but petitions won't bring down Sovereign; it's regrettable but necessary", and "The Council wastes as much time as possible ignoring anything humans bring to the table; let them burn".



It's just that once the crisis has past, all anybody remembers is that the first human Specter left the Council in peril rather than commit human ships.

[Eddo36]

Cautious is bad for renegades.



That turian councilor will give you crap no matter what. If you saved the Rachi, he will berate you for letting a dangerous species live. If you kill the Rachni, he will ask you if you enjoy committing genocide.

[Eddo36]

Just thinking it up, if the Council was stupid enough to make someone willing to get rid of them into a Spectre, they are clearly inept and need to go.

Not to mention, there never was an option for you to kill the Council. You just merely don't have to save them. If Shepard never existed, they would have died anyways.

Modifié par Eddo36, 28 mai 2010 - 12:49 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."

[Pacifien]

Christmas Ape wrote...
Though if you're just measuring lives lost vs lives lost, you save roughly four thousand lives ordering them in (~6000 lost saving the Ascension, ~10,000 crew on the Ascension).

It's a renegade decision because you consign them to death in view of reinforcements on a speculation, and really? You work directly for the Council. No wonder everyone's choked that the first human Spectre makes no move to save the Council - even given their highest honor, they watch you put human lives ahead of others.

That's certainly true if you chose the renegade option and purposely left the Council to die. But then, such a renegade player probably doesn't much care what the other alien races think because it's humanity's turn now. Getting instated as a Spectre to put yourself in such a position is just great political maneuvering.

However, if you chose to concentrate on Sovereign, then your intention was not to put human lives ahead of others. Your intention was to sacrifice the Council to concentrate on the more immediate threat. Even the Council tells you in certain post-mission debriefings that such hard decisions will need to be made for the good of the whole of Council space. The councillors are not exempt from that decision making process, though as politicians, they probably think they should be.

Of course, even if the intention was just to eliminate Sovereign, other alien races are not going to see it that way. They're not going to think about how if the Alliance had engaged Sovereign with a weaker force, they could have lost the gamble and Sovereign could have won. All they see is their Council is dead and the Alliance did nothing about it.

Personally think if you had chosen the paragon option, Sovereign should have nearly wiped out the Alliance fleet before going down. But that's not what happened.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Saving the council is an idiotic thing to do. Shepard doesn't know Sovereign will be defeated anyway - as far as he knows, diverting resources to save the council will cause the battle to be lost and civilisation to be destroyed.

Saving the council is reckless and stupid.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 28 mai 2010 - 08:01 .

[Pacifien]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Saving the council is an idiotic thing to do. Shepard doesn't know Sovereign will be defeated anyway - as far as he knows, diverting resources to save the council will cause the battle to be lost and civilisation to be destroyed.

Saving the council is reckless and stupid.

*cue debate on the Destiny Ascension's main gun and the geth that flank you if you ignore saving the Ascension*

Don't get me wrong, I've argued plenty of times that it makes more sense to concentrate on Sovereign. But believe me, those who saved the Destiny Ascension come prepared with an entire list of tactical advantages for their decision. I don't believe any of them and I think they ignore how battle in three dimensional space might work, but then, we really have too little information of the battlefield.

[Eddo36]

Destiny Asension was pretty much out of the fight. It was getting too hot. Gardian defenses was overwhelmed, and once Gardian goes, the system goes bye bye due to overheating (causing reduction in damage, range, and accuracy, and burning out the point defense lasers). Once a ship gets too hot, it's useless in a fight. Not even enough "cool" for shields or to FTL out, what can it do weapon-wise? Not to mention, it's main gun was useless at close range, with many quantities of small Geth ship.  Main guns are used in extreme ranges. Read the codexes.

What DA was good for was taking out as many Geth fighters as it can before it goes firebally with it's failing Gardian,  making Geth ships hotter by being a bulletsponge and taking their hits (each shot makes each Geth ship hotter), and take the Geth attention away from the Alliance fleet for as long as possible as the fleet moves towards Sovereign.

Modifié par Eddo36, 28 mai 2010 - 10:43 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pacifien wrote...

we really have too little information of the battlefield.

We have all the information Shepard has.  Shepard's decision needs to be based on the information available.

[Pacifien]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
We have all the information Shepard has.  Shepard's decision needs to be based on the information available.

True. The only information Shepard has from the distress call is that the Destiny Ascension's main drive if offline and kinetic barriers are down considerably. There's no information on other Council ships, how many geth ships there are, where everyone is. All Shepard knows is that Sovereign is attached to the Citadel and the disc Vigil gave Shepard was only supposed to give Shepard momentary control of the systems.

The fact that the Ascension's main drive is offline tells me it's pretty much out of the fight. The only reason to save it would be to save the lives on board then. Though this is where I've seen proponents of saving the ship talk about saving the ship because it's a dreadnought of immense power that will be needed later on -- as if it was already a foregone conclusion that you were going to defeat Sovereign so that there'd be another battle later on for the dreadnought to fight in.

Eddo is probably right that best use to get from the Ascension at this point, if you were fighting the battle as an all or nothing battle, the ship is best used as a final kamikaze explosion against all the enemy ships surrounding it.

[Eddo36]

Here is Space Combat: General Tactics codex for reference (seems somewhere between medium and close range)-


Shells lofted by surface navies crash back to earth when their acceleration is overwhelmed by gravity and air resistance. In space, a projectile has unlimited range, it will keep moving until it hits something.

Practical gunnery range is determined by the velocity of the attacker's ordinance and the maneuverability of the target. Beyond a certain range, a small ship's ability to dodge trumps a larger attacker's projectile speed. The largest-ranged combat occurs between dreadnoughts, whose projectiles have the highest velocity but are the least maneuverable. The shortest-range combat is between frigates, which have the slowest projectile velocities and highest maneuverability.

Opposing dreadnoughts open with main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. The fleet close, maintaining evasive lateral motion while keeping their bow guns facing the enemy. Fighters are launched and attempt to close to disruptor torpedo range. Cautious admirals weaken the enemy with ranged fire and fighter strikes before committing to close action. Aggressive commanders advance so cruisers and frigates can engage.

At LONG range, the main guns of cruisers become useful. Friendly interceptors engage enemy fighters until the attackers enter the range of ship-based GARDIAN fire. Dreadnoughts fire from the rear, screened by smaller ships. Commanders must decide whether to commit to a general melee or retreat into FTL.

At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns. Fleets intermingle, and it becomes difficult to retreat in order. Ships with damaged kinetic barriers are vulnerable to wolfpack frigate flotillas that speed through the battle space.

Only fighters and frigates enter CLOSE "knife fight" ranges of 10 or fewer kilometers. Fighters loose their disruptor torpedoes, bringing down a ship's kinetic barriers and allowing it to be swarmed by frigates. GARDIAN lasers become viable weapons, swatting down fighters and boiling away warship armor.

Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard.

Modifié par Eddo36, 28 mai 2010 - 10:59 .

[Eddo36]

Honestly, I don't see why letting the Council die was so catastrophic. It's only one freaking dreadnaught. A dreadnaught can be replaced (there was just a treaty that limits the number of dreadnaughts that can be built, when one goes, build a new one. dur). And 3 new councilors can be voted from each race. It's not that hard.
 
Unless they were dumb enough to station ALL their leadership and backup leadership on some weird space structure which they know very little about. At least the humans command from their own Arcturus Station, which was a lot smarter. Idiot aliens.

Modifié par Eddo36, 29 mai 2010 - 12:07 .

[Tirigon]

Eddo36 wrote...

Yeah but the Council is slow and dim witted as proven in the whole game and you would save more lives in the galaxy without them in charge. I think that's the logic.

Not to mention, the Council themselves serve the galaxy. So that means you as a Spectre serve the galaxy ultimately, it's a bigger boss than the Council.

Both wrong: You do NOT  work for the galaxy but for the Counsil - at least that´s your job. Of course you can decide otherwise and do what you think it´s best for the galaxy.

Also, the human-led counsil is not any better, in fact.

[Eddo36]

No, that's your Shepard's job. My Shepard works for the galaxy. It's a role playing game, so we can play how we want, no?

[Tirigon]

Which is exactly what I said. BUT IT IS SHEPARD´S JOB TO SERVE THE COUNCIL. Due to ME being a roleplaying game you can decide to ignore the Council and follow your ideals or whatever, but techincally that means you are NOT doing your job as spectre.

[Eddo36]

You work for the Alliance too...

[Tirigon]

You often do, yes, but in theory spectres serve the Council and ONLY the council. Also, unlike the Council missions NO mission for the alliance is compulsory. Because technically, you are NOT forced to obey them anymore.

[Pacifien]

Tirigon wrote...
Both wrong: You do NOT  work for the galaxy but for the Counsil - at least that´s your job. Of course you can decide otherwise and do what you think it´s best for the galaxy.

You work for the Council to preserve galactic stability by whatever means possible. If you felt that having Sovereign gain control of the Citadel was somehow detrimental toward galactic stability, then it's perfectly reasonable to assume sacrificing the Council to kill Sovereign is completely within your job mandate. It is the Council, afterall, that stresses to Shepard the need to make hard decisions for the greater good.

[Ashton808]

You get paragon for destroying the biggest threat and renegade for getting the greatest government in the galaxy killed.