78 réponses à ce sujet

[Motion Blue]

Letting people die is bad.





Difficult concept, I'm sure.

[KalosCast]

Saving the Council - Paragon. Your character shows some genre-savvy in knowing you'll still have the firepower to stop Sovereign.



Holding off - Netural, slightly Renegade. You're completing the mission "no matter the cost." With this case, the cost is essentially the entire current government regime.



Letting the Council Die - Renegade. Same effect at the first one, except you're actually advising that the council should die, instead of holding off on attacking until the best possible moment.

[soteria]

That was one of the few renegade choices that I was a little sad to make. Not because the council died, mind you, but it was too bad all the other well-intentioned people on the Ascension had to die. The council had it coming.

[Sylvius the Mad]

KalosCast wrote...

Saving the Council - Paragon. Your character shows some genre-savvy in knowing you'll still have the firepower to stop Sovereign.

And that's the problem.  The "Paragon" option only fails to be idiotic if you metagame.

[KalosCast]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Saving the Council - Paragon. Your character shows some genre-savvy in knowing you'll still have the firepower to stop Sovereign.

And that's the problem.  The "Paragon" option only fails to be idiotic if you metagame.

Not really. Asari are a council race, and therefore are a powerful military force (it's how you get on the Council) the Destiny Ascension flyby points out that it makes up roughtly half the firepower of both the Asar and Citadel fleets. The thing clearly can't handle an entire fleet focusing on it (neither could Sovereign and we know he's a bad ass). The Destiny Ascension, if not the council on it, are a distinct tactical advantage, and you could argue that the Council's death could have broken the morale of the defending fleets and do even more damage.

[Eddo36]

Good, one less superweapon to fight when humans take over the galaxy.

[Sylvius the Mad]

KalosCast wrote...

The Destiny Ascension, if not the council on it, are a distinct tactical advantage

Not with its generator down, which it is (we're told that explicitly).

If we don't defeat sovereign, any other advantages are meaningless.  Caring for a cripplied ship in a battle is a waste of resources.

Killing a soldier removes one solider from the fight, but wounding a soldier removes 3 soliders from the fight.

[KalosCast]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

The Destiny Ascension, if not the council on it, are a distinct tactical advantage

Not with its generator down, which it is (we're told that explicitly).

If we don't defeat sovereign, any other advantages are meaningless.  Caring for a cripplied ship in a battle is a waste of resources.

Killing a soldier removes one solider from the fight, but wounding a soldier removes 3 soliders from the fight.

I assumed that by saying the generators are down, that means that the engines are offline (since when your generators are down in the suicide mission, it means you crash-land) which means that the DA can still bring its incredible firepower to bear against targets in its LOS.

Assuming that the entire ship is crippled, there are thousands of crew members aboard the TA and would still be an asset worth saving, since the cost to outfit it with a new engine is easily going to be less than building a new DA, recruiting a new crew, and the time involved in doing all of that. Regardless of the council or not, the DA is worth saving, it will clearly be an asset in any fight that doesn't involve getting ambushed by Cthulhu with one of his main initial targets aboard it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But that fight - getting ambushed by Cthulhu - is the one that's happening now. And if you lose that fight, there will be no subsequent fights. Planning beyond this particular fight in a way the fails to maximise your chances of seeing anything beyond this particular fight is dumb.

As for whether the main gun is down, everything on these ships runs on eezo. It's all mass effect fields all the time. Believing that there are multiple independent mass effect generators onboard the DA is a baseless assumption.

[9thLich]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Believing that there are multiple independent mass effect generators onboard the DA is a baseless assumption.

And believing the contrary is Star Wars-esque. Or do you really think they'd build something like the Death Star (It's invincible! Apart from this exhaust vent which leads directly to the reactor core<_<) in Mass Effect? In my opinion a dreadnaught without multiple linkable or independent mass effect generators would be a design flaw on that scale.

[Sylvius the Mad]

9thLich wrote...

And believing the contrary is Star Wars-esque.

I agree.  The point is that SHEPARD DOESN'T KNOW.

And given that, is he going to risk the whole galaxy on a hunch, or is he going to stick with the path that produces the greatest chance of success?

[Hydrakara]

My logic was not to "save the council" but save the Citadel fleet. Surely having the alliance flank the Geth fleet, crush them on both fronts then have both fleets attack sovereign is strategically a better idea than withholding the alliance fleet, letting the citadel fleet get decimated leaving you with only a single fleet in which to attack sovereign.

So i thought "save the council" was not only the paragon choice but the best strategic one

Modifié par Hydrakara, 13 juin 2010 - 02:38 .

[Pacifien]

Eh. The Destiny Ascension's main drive was offline. It's not going anywhere and if its main gun was even working, the enemy ship would need to fly straight in front of it.



Also, flanking takes on a different meaning when you can approach the enemy from six different sides. I think anyone who mentions how Sovereign is in front and the geth fleet is behind forget there are four other directions of escape.

[squigian]

Something I've often wondered is why did Sovereign assume direct control of Saren if it could open the Citadel relay itself.



As for the Paragon vs. Renegade decision in this case, I think it's a judgement call. Not saving the council gets you to the Citadel faster but means you can't bring the full firepower of the ships present at the battle to Sovereign. Saving the council means more ships attack Sovereign but at the cost of delaying the assault. What the first course of action relies upon is that you can destroy Sovereign before the Geth finish high-fiving each other over destroying the Destiny Ascension and arrive at the Citadel proper (they would double back to Sovereign to protect it as their plan depends entirely on its success, not their survival); the second plan requires that Sovereign is not able to break through Vigil's program in the time it takes to assemble a larger attack force.



The reason the latter path is paragon is that it requires the sacrifice of (a lesser number of) human lives whilst the former plan requires the sacrifice of alien lives. Both have significant risks.

[Zaxares]

Basically... A Renegade willingly sacrifices people in order to achieve his greater goal. Renegade Shepard believes that he has to keep all of the Alliance's fleet in reserve to strike at Sovereign, and can't afford to waste any ships on saving the Ascension. Therefore, the choice to not go to the aid of the Ascension is a Renegade choice.

[Hydrakara]

Pacifien wrote...

Eh. The Destiny Ascension's main drive was offline. It's not going anywhere and if its main gun was even working, the enemy ship would need to fly straight in front of it.

Also, flanking takes on a different meaning when you can approach the enemy from six different sides. I think anyone who mentions how Sovereign is in front and the geth fleet is behind forget there are four other directions of escape.

True but attacking from behind is still a significant advantage. Engines are exposed and front weapons are obviously not pointing in your direction. Spinning a warship around, in any direction, just produces a larger target

[STG]

I order our fleet to focus on Sovereign.



While I play as a Paragon I just couldn't risk an entire galaxy to save one ship, regardless of how powerful or who is on board. It isn't a decision one can make lightly and it's sad that everyone hates you for it, but if you look at the situation at that moment, there is really nothing else you can do.

[The Real Bowser]

STG wrote...

I order our fleet to focus on Sovereign.

While I play as a Paragon I just couldn't risk an entire galaxy to save one ship, regardless of how powerful or who is on board. It isn't a decision one can make lightly and it's sad that everyone hates you for it, but if you look at the situation at that moment, there is really nothing else you can do.

It's not really the renegade choice.   What you did was for a just cause.  The humans moving in and taking over is what has everyone upset.   They made the renegade choice in doing that, not you.

[kalle90]

You are council's tool. By basically ordering them to die you basically betray them. With that you betray the law and order. Whether that is for greater good or not doesn't matter.



Sure you can say Council would want you to pursue the greater good but IMO that's wrong. In real life people will get punished for disobeying the law even if it would be for greater good.



IMO the system should be as easy as "Paragon" = Do what higher people tell you, "Renegade" = You follow your own rules although you really can't do that as you can't do everything you want

[Destroy Raiden_]

If the council is not willing to sacrifice then there will be no council....thats what the neutral choice is I don't think it should be a bad choice sometimes playing it neutral is good sometimes you can't be too positive nor too negative they shouldn't count a neutral as a bad thing maybe give points for both sides evenly?



It all depends on the situation when I first played through I thought the council was on the station not on a ship too large to move outside the station! They where dumb enough to board the darn thing in the first place why not have them die in the ship?



But honestly I think the neutral choice still shoud've saved them it was the right call taking your forces in too soon killed alot of good men keeping them back spared them the initial death and then more fire power was generated for sovereign that was the right call you don't' toss out your queen in the first round in chess you keep her back and strike when your opponent is weak.

[PrinceLionheart]

I normally play the Paragon Way but I have to admit this was the most broken Paragon Choice in the series so far. I dunno, I just feel that if Shepard was going to sacrifice human lives to save the Ascension, then as a result, he also got something as of an Icy reception back at home. The Alies love the Paragon Shep but humans feel that Shepard "Sold Out." It really shoud've been balanced more.



On the topic of saving the council. I've mixed between choosing the Paragon and Neutral option and honestly I find the Neutral option makes the more sense given the situation. I know people aren't going to like the answer, but Politician's are replaceable. There really was no way of knowing if you divided the Alliances attention between fighting the Reaper and saving the Council that you'd still win in the end.

[PrinceLionheart]

kalle90 wrote...

You are council's tool. By basically ordering them to die you basically betray them. With that you betray the law and order. Whether that is for greater good or not doesn't matter.

Sure you can say Council would want you to pursue the greater good but IMO that's wrong. In real life people will get punished for disobeying the law even if it would be for greater good.

IMO the system should be as easy as "Paragon" = Do what higher people tell you, "Renegade" = You follow your own rules although you really can't do that as you can't do everything you want

You broke the rule, and your "loyalty" to the Council, the minute you stole the Normandy to pursue Saren. At that point you were no longer taking any orders from them and your actions were based on your own Moral stance. So really the obligation to save the Council had already been thrown out the window.

[Roamingmachine]

Paragon or renegade, i never let the council die.The bigger picture is what i keep my eyes on when making these decisions, not the individual battle.Winning a battle means nothing if it costs you the war.If the council dies then so does the unity within citadel space.Humanity would stand alone, or do you think other council races would contribute anything to your cause after you essentially murder their reprisentatives through inaction and cut them off from government? Hell, they should be barreling down on earth at flank speed to exact some vengance.At the very least you get the situation you could get in me2: Nobody likes humanity and are essentially doing their own thing and citadel has degenerated to being a UN of the future, utterly pointless.Letting the council die is a renegade decision because it is shortsighted like most renegade decisions in me1.

[Puddledive]

I focused on the Sovereign with barely a second though. (just barely started my second playthrough). I know I am late to the party, but I didn't even have to think very hard about it. They ignored all of the warnings, they did the exact wrong thing to keep people alive.



I resented their arrogance and ineptitude. But on top of that, although I was a bit merciless, I always did anything that had to be done to track Saren and save the universe. They had proven themselves to be poor leaders and tried their hardest to lead everyone to their doom.



What I intended to happen was for each race to elect a new person. Instead, I get to hear the one guy that I definitely like less than them saying this is the time for humans to step forward and take over the whole show. I instantly regretted my decision because there was no choice to vote him ONTO that ship with them.

[SamuelFingJackson]

When you think about it, how Paragon is it to say that you should risk the millions of lives on the Citadel and the uncounted number of sentient beings for a handful of the galaxy's elite?