78 réponses à ce sujet

[Spartas Husky]

SamuelFingJackson wrote...

When you think about it, how Paragon is it to say that you should risk the millions of lives on the Citadel and the uncounted number of sentient beings for a handful of the galaxy's elite?

We dont know for sure. but since is renegade we have to assume Sheperd is well aware as a specter should be of the capabilities of the citadel defense fleet.

If your in the battlefield you dont leave anyone behind, BUT that doesn't mean you go and rescue those you know are far to weak and would only cause you too loose more units than you would gain by rescuing those under attack.

So it is reasonable to assume Sheperd knows the Citadel flee can still be saved and w/e casualties humanity gains will be replenished by the citadel fleet, but since they got hit hard I assume the trade off is the same. You loose many and save many. SO since no reasonable gain would be made I guess that is what is left.

You gain nothing by rescuing the citadel:
A do you sacrifice 1 human to save a turian/salarian/asari
B let 3 aliens die to preserve 3 humans for later on.

Thats imho though.

[PseudoEthnic]

I hated that sacrificing the council leads to a human council. Why can't they just replace them with other representatives from the council races? I hate that I have to save the council for my main renegade Shepard file only because I don't want the galaxy to see him as a xenophobic. He doesn't hate aliens, dammit! He was just trying to save the galaxy!

[Bullets McDeath]

PseudoEthnic wrote...

I hated that sacrificing the council leads to a human council. Why can't they just replace them with other representatives from the council races? I hate that I have to save the council for my main renegade Shepard file only because I don't want the galaxy to see him as a xenophobic. He doesn't hate aliens, dammit! He was just trying to save the galaxy!

If you finish as Paragon, that is what happens. It's only if you finish as Renegade that you get the all-Human Council. That was my understanding, anyway.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 12 janvier 2011 - 04:17 .

[Stofsk]

If you let the council die you can choose whether to have an all-human council or a new council from ALL the races of the galaxy.



In-universe, striving to not meta-game, I can see a good rationalisation being made for saving the council. It's currently under attack from a fleet of geth ships, if you don't step in to save the Destiny Ascension what happens to those geth ships? It strikes me as leaving yourself open to getting flanked. I know space combat is in three dimensions, but the Alliance fleet was just sitting there shelling Sovereign - nobody was doing high-velocity manoeuvres.



That's my thought process playing as a paragon and not metagaming. The neutral option of 'concentrating on sovereign' makes sense as well, both this and the paragon option strike me as a gamble Shepard has to make. The renegade option, on the other hand, just makes Shepard look like a dick.

[All-a-Mort]

Strikes me it is the difference between a making a military decision and a political one. For the military approach, it makes more sense to attack Sovereign while it can't manouvre and ignore the DA. The political decision is to save the council because as others have pointed out, the battle of the citadel is not the end of the war, more like the end of the beginning and if the other council races hate humans even more and refuse to offer assistance later on then the war is lost already. The morale loss of the council being killed and the humans betraying them to launch a takeover would have a hugely detrimental impact on Citadel Space inter-species relations.

[jbblue05]

Their is no all-human Council.



Their is a human-led Council and Asari-led Council

[Sparda Stonerule]

Here was my thought process the first time I played the game.

Alright here I am in control of the Citadel. What's this? A distress call from the Ascension? It's shields are down to 40%? But we have a battle to fight here. Oh a call from Joker he's sitting in the Andura sector with the fifth fleet. Now Tali and Garrus are talking. Tali is saying we'll loose humans if we send them in NOW.

Then the choices pop up. Alright so if I do anything but save the council Shepard won't send in the fleet now? Aren't there Geth ships sitting out there around the Citadel? What possible advantage is there in holding back if we have Geth ships to fight even if we hold back? I'd rather pick the option to save people and dive in now rather than hold my fleet back and possibly run into a Geth blockade.

So I picked save the Council and was pleased. At the time I had no idea the scenes would play the same way pretty much. I just heard Tali mention that I should hold my fleet back for a bit then come in to strike Sovereign. Holding my whole fleet back for any amount of time seemed kind of silly to me in the moment. Holding the back would give the Geth ships time to rally and take out any remaining ships around the Citadel.

I don't find either choice to be silly or tactically unsound per se it was just how I felt the very first time I played the game.

[Bullets McDeath]

jbblue05 wrote...

Their is no all-human Council.

Their is a human-led Council and Asari-led Council

--Insert giant "you are wrong" noise here--

If the council dies and you finish the game as Renegade, then there is an all-human council.

The wiki exists for a reason, ya'll. I know it's not intentional, but the spread of misinformation like this is annoying. Just because something wasn't a certain way in your playthroughs... try to keep in mind half the point of the game is that your choices result in a unique experience.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 12 janvier 2011 - 05:56 .

[Nashiktal]

Letting the Council die is renegade because it isnt paragon. Paragon= Model soldier/ play by the rules. While renegade= Make own rules/at all costs. (At least thats how its supposed to be. Lately P=saint and R=ass. >.>)



Honestly though, why you would let that big ass fleet of geth remain in your rear while you attack the invincible space squid is beyond me.

[Darth_Ravor]

i agree. i almost always do paragon decisions but the first time i played mass effect i had a hard time deciding but i figured we cant waste reinforcements on a doomed ship and if sovereign lives we all die so with regret i let the council die.

[RiouHotaru]

Letting the Council die on purpose is also something an ass move. Concentrating on Sovereign feels like a tactically sound choice. Waiting for the Ascension to blow up BEFORE moving in on Sovereign? That's just being a jerk.

[kombra]

Is there some explanation on how the humans take over the council (renegade choice, all-human council)? It doesn't make any sense that the other races would let that happen.

[FlintlockJazz]

I love how people insist that 'their' choice is the only one that makes sense ingame and that only idiots and meta-gamers choose the other choice, as if the value of their decision relies on that being the case. People came to differing conclusions based on the choices presented to them, and there are valid conclusions to both. If you want to argue over whether they were renegade or paragon that's fine since they are moral abstractions but there are good reasons for both options in the game.



So endeth my proclamation, that is all.

[Aigyl]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I love how people insist that 'their' choice is the only one that makes sense ingame and that only idiots and meta-gamers choose the other choice, as if the value of their decision relies on that being the case. People came to differing conclusions based on the choices presented to them, and there are valid conclusions to both. If you want to argue over whether they were renegade or paragon that's fine since they are moral abstractions but there are good reasons for both options in the game.

So endeth my proclamation, that is all.

This.

Tactically, both decisions are perfectly justifiable. Saving the Council cleans out the Geth ships so there's no chance they interfere when fighting Sovereign, letting the Council die lets the Alliance hit Sovereign with their full strength.

For the Council themselves, you get to pick between "Ah yes, Reapers" or "The human-led Council won't see you because you look out for human interests"(???). The Mass Effect races sure know how to pick their politicians

[guyhard]

I personally looked at the situation as 'getting revenge'.



I've only played one COMPLETE ME1 playthrough so far, on a Paragon Soldier.



The let them die option is mostly about getting revenge, though the saving them option is forgiving them and allowing them to live.



I saved them, only because I didn't want to get out of character.

[jbblue05]

outlaworacle wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Their is no all-human Council.

Their is a human-led Council and Asari-led Council

--Insert giant "you are wrong" noise here--

If the council dies and you finish the game as Renegade, then there is an all-human council.

The wiki exists for a reason, ya'll. I know it's not intentional, but the spread of misinformation like this is annoying. Just because something wasn't a certain way in your playthroughs... try to keep in mind half the point of the game is that your choices result in a unique experience.

The wiki is wrong
I am a renegade player and always chose to let the council die.  I always get the human-led council.
Their are multiple threads disproving the all-human council

[Firesteel]

Aigyl wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I love how people insist that 'their' choice is the only one that makes sense ingame and that only idiots and meta-gamers choose the other choice, as if the value of their decision relies on that being the case. People came to differing conclusions based on the choices presented to them, and there are valid conclusions to both. If you want to argue over whether they were renegade or paragon that's fine since they are moral abstractions but there are good reasons for both options in the game.

So endeth my proclamation, that is all.

This.

Tactically, both decisions are perfectly justifiable. Saving the Council cleans out the Geth ships so there's no chance they interfere when fighting Sovereign, letting the Council die lets the Alliance hit Sovereign with their full strength.

For the Council themselves, you get to pick between "Ah yes, Reapers" or "The human-led Council won't see you because you look out for human interests"(???). The Mass Effect races sure know how to pick their politicians

Both are TACTICAL in terms of ships and combat, deal with the geth immediately and save lives, or hold back while they are thinned a little and then kick their collective  arses. Saving the council is also a strategic and a political one, strategically, saving the Ascension would help in the long run, and saving the council makes the galaxy trust humanity.

[Araethuiel]

I reckon it comes down to lives lost, as much as (if not more than) the council themselves. If you save the Ascension, it's clearly said in the next game (won't say when, have fun discovering it yourselves if you haven't yet. ) that the human alliance lost 8 cruisers; each of which had around 300 crew (totallnig 2400 humans)
The Destiny Ascension had around 10,000 (presumably mainly asari) crew.
You can sacrifice those ten thousand lives, AND the council, or you can sacrifice 2,400 lives to save 10,300

[tangent]To explain the extra 300, that's the council. I figure there's about a 120 asari council members, and 90 of turian and salarians. The 3 you see are simply the highest ranking from each race. Pure conjecture with absolutely no basis, but it makes more sense to me than 3 individuals ruling a galaxy. Especially if it's basically a space democracy of sorts (that turian talking to voters in ME2 points to this in my mind)[/tangent]

If the paragon choices are all about saving lives, then it's preferable to save 7,600 than 2,400 (which you'll lose regardless but SHUTTUP YOU DON'T KNOW THAT YET HARGLBLARGL)
The renegade will let the 10,000 die just to advance humanity that bit further, or through bloodyminded racism (my b|tch-shep's reason), but it fails in the end as everything becomes rather cold-war-ish between humans and turians but HARGLBLARGL.

Modifié par Araethuiel, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:10 .

[SpEcIaLRyAn21]

This choice is a perfect representation of a 'gray' choice. There is no right answer. Either way people are going to die. Whether its the council or the human fleet. For the neutral choice you get both paragon and renegade. I believe however that the only reason they give you paragon points for saving the council is because saving the council is more about the 'Big Picture' sort of thing. Think about it though. Nobody knew that when the council dies, if you so choose, that Udina would suggest a human council. So I think both choices can be right in there own way. As I said before though there is no right answer. Its up to the player to choose what makes most sense to them. So no, letting the council die is not strictly renegade. This could be a paragon ending as well. Its all up to how you interpret it as the player. It doesn't matter what points the game gives you for making the choice. Letting the council die might be right to you but wrong to someone else. Its open for your own interpretation.

Modifié par SpEcIaLRyAn21, 21 mars 2011 - 08:18 .

[Golden Owl]

My Shep saves the Council purely from a political stand point....the Council are politicians and like your common garden variety politician, they are morally questionable and jerks. But people do rally around their politicians in times of crisis and with that a greater measure of stability can be achieved....the galaxy has a good chance of falling into chaos without that stabilizing factor. There are also the other 9,997 lives upon the DA.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 23 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[Golden Owl]

Modifié par Golden Owl, 23 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[stephenterry40]

I save the council for one reason and one reason only. we all know virtually everything we do carrys weight for any upcoming sequel. the reason i save them is when the final fight finally does come round, surely they will have my back after all ive done. however if you just left them to die, then you potentionally have three races that may be reluctant to help you giving your past. i have yet to ever let the council die so i dont know if what i say has any merit. just merely tryin to get the best possible outcome for my paragon character when the series is finally concluded.

[Labrev]

Renegade = mission comes first, get the job done at all costs. The mission is to kill the Reaper, not save the Council. Letting the council die is renegade.

Of course it turns out to make no difference in the end as far as defeating Sovereign, but nonetheless.

[hawat333]

That was the netural course, I guess.
I might add, it is the right one. Concentrating on Sovereign is the right call - let's assume we don't know that we can win if we sacrifice half the fleet to defend the Ascencion- .
Why you got 9 Renegade points? Because you were willing to sacrifice lives for the Greater Good.
That's hardly a Paragon act. Even if it's the right one.

But you know, that's why they are called Paragon and Renegade and not Good and Evil.