752 réponses à ce sujet

[Mozer121]

As much as the Quarians shouldn't have tried to kill them, the Geth still killed millions of innocents in the war and thus the Quarians deserve support.

[KalosCast]

Mozer121 wrote...

As much as the Quarians shouldn't have tried to kill them, the Geth still killed millions of innocents in the war and thus the Quarians deserve support.

It's war. Innocents die. Find me a war where that wasn't the case (there wasn't one). Even if the Geth killed innocents, the Quarian support all-out genocide.

[Massadonious1]

It's hard to argue against The Big Deal.

[KalosCast]

Massadonious1 wrote...

It's hard to argue against The Big Deal.

Yeah, I've heard it's a pretty big deal.

[TheBlackBaron]

KalosCast wrote...

Mozer121 wrote...

As much as the Quarians shouldn't have tried to kill them, the Geth still killed millions of innocents in the war and thus the Quarians deserve support.

It's war. Innocents die. Find me a war where that wasn't the case (there wasn't one). Even if the Geth killed innocents, the Quarian support all-out genocide.

Against robots.

I mean, really, is it genocide when you can just stash the blueprints in a filing cabinet somewhere and build some more frames? Alternatively, saving some programming files to a folder and plugging it into a new mobile platform?

The "genocide" argument has never really held water with me for that reason. It's not on the same level as, say, killing the Rachni Queen (although I do that too).

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 01 juin 2010 - 07:27 .

[jack253]

This is a tough one, but I would go for the quarians. Putting the fact that tali is my LI aside, I would choose quarians because well they're organics. If you look at every sci fi story in existence you see that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable so it's better to stop it before the geth become to powerful for the other races

[KalosCast]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Mozer121 wrote...

As much as the Quarians shouldn't have tried to kill them, the Geth still killed millions of innocents in the war and thus the Quarians deserve support.

It's war. Innocents die. Find me a war where that wasn't the case (there wasn't one). Even if the Geth killed innocents, the Quarian support all-out genocide.

Against robots.

I mean, really, is it genocide when you can just stash the blueprints in a filing cabinet somewhere and build some more frames? Alternatively, saving some programming files to a folder and plugging it into a new mobile platform?

The "genocide" argument has never really held water with me for that reason. It's not on the same level as, say, killing the Rachni Queen (although I do that too).

By that logic, murder shouldnt' be a crime anymore because we posess the ability to clone people. Simply because you can recreate the base specs (and its' already stated the Geth have advanced quicker and further beyond the Quarian expectations and design) doesn't mean that you're still not erasing a life, a being with feelings, ambitions, hopes, fears, etc.

Could you back all of these things up? Potentially. Are you going to be able to do it in the middle of a war where you're actively trying to murder every last single member of the species? Hell no.

[Inverness Moon]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

If Admiral Morrigan's virus shenanigans come together in time for ME3, I'll be strongly tempted to take that option. Guarantees me two armies, one of which will be indebted to Shep and the other...let's just say they won't be changing their minds on anything any time soon.

Cruel? Maybe, depending on how you view robots, but when the galaxy's at stake I really don't care.

Would you indoctrinate the council and anyone else in the galaxy who doesn't believe the reapers exist so that you can force them to fight the reapers?

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Against robots.

I mean, really, is it genocide when you can just stash the blueprints in a filing cabinet somewhere and build some more frames? Alternatively, saving some programming files to a folder and plugging it into a new mobile platform?

The "genocide" argument has never really held water with me for that reason. It's not on the same level as, say, killing the Rachni Queen (although I do that too).

Yes, it is genocide. When the geth became sentient they crossed that line.

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group." Whether or not you have blueprints to make more, either synthetic or organic, is irrelevant. For you to try to excuse your opinion with that shows that it's not very well thought out.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 juin 2010 - 09:49 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There's no way what the Geth did to the Quarians is not Genocide either. And it was actually successful, unlike the Quarians attempt to do so.

[FourSixEight]

Mozer121 wrote...

As much as the Quarians shouldn't have tried to kill them, the Geth still killed millions of innocents in the war and thus the Quarians deserve support.

Except the quarians started the gorram war! The geth didn't really 'rebel', not in the beginning; Tali says this is what happened in the first game, but you can't exactly provide an entirely reliable account of a devastating war you lost and just barely survived.

What happened was, the geth were designed to get smarter in groups, the geth's design started working to perfection so the quarians used them in labor more, as a consequence they were in close proximity, got smarter and hit critical mass, they then asked 'does this unit have a soul' and such, quarians freak out, try to shut them down, geth fight back, war happens.

No one's saying the quarians getting massacred was a good thing, they did not deserve to die, but neither is the continued hatred of the geth, who, while they did kill lots of quarians, were literally attacked simply because they gained sentience.

[KalosCast]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There's no way what the Geth did to the Quarians is not Genocide either. And it was actually successful, unlike the Quarians attempt to do so.

That would definitely explain why you never meet any of the Quarian Admirals on a space ship, or see any others on the Citadel, Omega, or your ship....

Modifié par KalosCast, 01 juin 2010 - 08:14 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

KalosCast wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There's
no way what the Geth did to the Quarians is not Genocide either. And it
was actually successful, unlike the Quarians attempt to do so.

That
would definitely explain why you never meet any of the Quarian Admirals
on a space ship, or see any others on the Citadel, Omega, or your
ship....

Uh, as I said before, way over 99% of all Quarians everywhere died at the hands of the Geth. That's by far worse than any genocide in the 20th Century. Are you saying that the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide and the Rwandan Genocide aren't real genocides or something?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 juin 2010 - 08:31 .

[Kenshen]

I will side with the Geth only if I could not work out a peaceful solution as the Quarians are completely wrong about what they did and are thinking of doing to them. Tali has a line in her loyalty mission where you can tell her to find another planet and her angry repsonse is that it would take too long to adjust to a new world. Well that is better than floating in space for how many years now with no hope of anything changing?

[Mouton_Alpha]

Shandepared wrote...

If the geth truly cared at all for the quarians they'd just abandon quarian space and find some secluded corner of the galaxy to live out their existence without needing to be bothered by organics. The geth could live anywhere. The fact that they insist on holding onto all the quarian worlds is good reason for every quarian to hate them. 

"Insist"? The don't insist on anything. They just fought the Morning War, the Quarians left and they remained where they were ever since. There was no communication between the Geth and the Quarians. For all we know if Quarians asked th Geth to leave, they just might answer "okay" exactly for the reasons you outlined. But there is no such communication.

It reminds me of the situation in Forever War - when humans and taurans finally communicated after millenia of bloody struggle, they immediately ceased hostilities after they realized how pointless it was.

Problem is, the Quarians are a lot like humans - they have built their identity over being enemies of the Geth and changing it - even for peace - will be very difficult and will encounter meet huge internal opposition.

Modifié par Mouton_Alpha, 01 juin 2010 - 08:40 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

When Legion speaks of the Morning War, Shepard can say "They'll keep hating you until you give back what you took." Legion replies, "Organic history suggest they would continue to hate us even if we did." So the Geth also don't think that just giving back the Quarians' worlds would do any good. Which is not entirely unjustifed. They still are trying to understand organic races before actually doing anything. I think eventually they may be able to be persauded to leave, but at the moment they don't see any benefit to doing that.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 juin 2010 - 08:54 .

[Weiser_Cain]

I figure out some way to integrate both species. For I am Shepard the Cyborg King.

[megatron999]

Inverness Moon wrote...

megatron999 wrote...

In my opinion no matter if there is a diplomatic solution I pick the Quarrians.

For a Starters you can't trust the Geth there machines and can be reprogrammed at anytime. They are also a major threat to all organic cultures and Sheperd would be justified in allying with the Quarians in the same way that US allied with Israel and gave them a new homeland.

Also Tali is cute you can't hurt her people!

Whether the geth are machines or not is irrelevant, because both the geth and the quarians are sentient. Geth cannot be reprogrammed at anytime, that is not how it works, the virus optionally used on the heretics was an advanced reaper creation. The reapers can also indoctrinate (reprogram) organics, it just takes longer. Your logic is flawed and biased.

I also wouldn't let my interest in Tali prevent me from doing the right thing, my Shepard wouldn't be able to look at himself in a mirror anymore if he did.

You don't seem to be taking the question seriously anyways.

Well In my view I would still pick the Quarrians because YOU just said the virus used on the Heretics was a Reaper design therefore logicallly the reapers could reprogram the Geth.

My apoligise for not taking the argument seriously, But I trust the Quarrians more in that I understand there motives better than the geth.  I do agree the Geth were right to drive them from there world though after they tried to destroy them (self preservation).

Also the Geth keep trying to kill me, I do like Legion and hope the situation can be resolved peacefully but I seriously doubt it given the past history between them.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

When Legion speaks of the Morning War, Shepard can say "They'll keep hating you until you give back what you took." Legion replies, "Organic history suggest they would continue to hate us even if we did." So the Geth also don't think that just giving back the Quarians' worlds would do any good. Which is not entirely unjustifed. They still are trying to understand organic races before actually doing anything. I think eventually they may be able to be persauded to leave, but at the moment they don't see any benefit to doing that.

They point is, Quarians and Geth never even talked with each other after the war. If they did, I see no reason why they couldn't reach a settlement. Hell, for all the Geth care, Quarians could live on the worlds the Geth now occupy, it's not like the Geth would use up their air or water and the Legion said that in the times of peace there are only few mobile platforms around. But again, the problem here would be Quarian mindset, trust, etc.

[Inverness Moon]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

If the geth truly cared at all for the quarians they'd just abandon quarian space and find some secluded corner of the galaxy to live out their existence without needing to be bothered by organics. The geth could live anywhere. The fact that they insist on holding onto all the quarian worlds is good reason for every quarian to hate them. 

"Insist"? The don't insist on anything. They just fought the Morning War, the Quarians left and they remained where they were ever since. There was no communication between the Geth and the Quarians. For all we know if Quarians asked th Geth to leave, they just might answer "okay" exactly for the reasons you outlined. But there is no such communication.

It reminds me of the situation in Forever War - when humans and taurans finally communicated after millenia of bloody struggle, they immediately ceased hostilities after they realized how pointless it was.

Problem is, the Quarians are a lot like humans - they have built their identity over being enemies of the Geth and changing it - even for peace - will be very difficult and will encounter meet huge internal opposition.

You nailed exactly what I was going to say.

megatron999 wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Whether the geth are machines or not is irrelevant, because both the geth and the quarians are sentient. Geth cannot be reprogrammed at anytime, that is not how it works, the virus optionally used on the heretics was an advanced reaper creation. The reapers can also indoctrinate (reprogram) organics, it just takes longer. Your logic is flawed and biased.

I also wouldn't let my interest in Tali prevent me from doing the right thing, my Shepard wouldn't be able to look at himself in a mirror anymore if he did.

You don't seem to be taking the question seriously anyways.

Well In my view I would still pick the Quarrians because YOU just said the virus used on the Heretics was a Reaper design therefore logicallly the reapers could reprogram the Geth.

My apoligise for not taking the argument seriously, But I trust the Quarrians more in that I understand there motives better than the geth.  I do agree the Geth were right to drive them from there world though after they tried to destroy them (self preservation).

Also the Geth keep trying to kill me, I do like Legion and hope the situation can be resolved peacefully but I seriously doubt it given the past history between them.

Legion had the virus destroyed, after you used it or not. Plus having observed the virus code will allow the geth to adapt and make themselves immune to it, much like a vaccine. I see no danger of the virus being used on them again.

So you understand the quarian motives better than the geth's? You know that the geth reach consensus on what to do, right? That means those of them that aren't heretics agree with each other about how to treat their creators and other organics. They're also not emotional. I thought their motivations were made pretty clear by Legion. They did not seek hostilities with the quarians, they fought for their right to exist. They simply wish to improve themselves by building their megastructure. I trust Legion far more than a quarian like Admiral Daro'Xen.

Anyhow, I don't see what justification there is for the quarians going to war if they were made aware of what Shepard learns from Legion. You cannot justify going to war against a race that wants peace and understanding.

[Flamin Jesus]

The past:
The Geth were not responsible for the war. Sure, them being intelligent was a mistake, but the Quarian reaction was "Hey, let's just exterminate those sentient beings over there!", and their reasoning went something like "Uh you know, we need them for menial labor, and menial labor won't fulfill a sentient being for long..."
The interim:
The Quarians had 300(?) years to choose a new homeworld, which they refused to do, instead they tried to find ways to brainwash or eliminate the Geth. The Geth (Apart from the Heretics, obviously) meanwhile didn't lift a finger to hurt the Quarians and even went so far as to preserve their planets (To some degree) without actually using them for themselves.
The present:
If Legion is to be believed, the Geth still don't have the slightest interest in killing all organics, or even the small subset that actively tries to lobotomize them. The Quarians, having realized that hanging out in space for 300 years tends to lead to slight health problems, try to kill or subjugate them with renewed fervor.
The military situation:
The Quarians have a big, but completely outdated fleet, rely on biological reproduction to fill their ranks, are most likely outnumbered before the war even begins and have almost ZERO production capability.
The Geth are technologically at least as advanced as the Citadel species, do not die unless all their control stations are destroyed, can replace every single loss within minutes or hours (Ground Forces) or, at the most, days (Ships), and simply have to defend, and wait.

Special modifiers:
The Geth might fall to Reaper influence faster than the Quarians.

Verdict:
Morally, there isn't even a question, while the Quarians surely have paid enough for the crimes of their past, initiating a war would show that they haven't changed at all. Unless the Geth are the aggressors (Of which there is absolutely NO indicator, as opposed to the Quarian admiralty's posturing), the Quarians deserve what they get.
Militarily, unless the Quarians somehow come up with some kind of superweapon or virus, they'll lose. So which side to choose here is obvious.

So, apart from the risk of the Geth being brainwashed (again?) by the Reapers, I (And therefore my canon Shepard) could not, in good conscience, stand at the Quarian's side in such a conflict. If they can't, or won't, find a peaceful solution, they can all die from a mild yeast infection for all I care (And I actually LIKE Tali).

Of course, that's not really what will happen in ME3, in ME3, we'll find out that the Reapers have somehow taken over all the Geth, and we'll have to find a way to apply the Quarian's knowledge to reverse the process as part of the main plot. Thereby paving the path for a happy, happy reunion (Or the renegade decision, which will come out as something along the lines of "Durrr, blow up all Geth, then use Quarian Ships as torpedoes against Reapers, durrrr".

Modifié par Flamin Jesus, 02 juin 2010 - 02:00 .

[Vaenier]

Heretics joined the Reapers on their own, no virus was used. The virus you used to reprogram them was still in development. they had no virus to infect the Heretics with.

The virus is now destroyed, it would take a few years again to recreate it. Thus the Geth are immune to indoctrination.

[KalosCast]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There's
no way what the Geth did to the Quarians is not Genocide either. And it
was actually successful, unlike the Quarians attempt to do so.

That
would definitely explain why you never meet any of the Quarian Admirals
on a space ship, or see any others on the Citadel, Omega, or your
ship....

Uh, as I said before, way over 99% of all Quarians everywhere died at the hands of the Geth. That's by far worse than any genocide in the 20th Century. Are you saying that the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide and the Rwandan Genocide aren't real genocides or something?

Way over 99%? The Flotilla is absolutely huge, and there are plenty of Quarian who leave it. Though while we're making up numbers, like a jillion percent of the Geth were killed when the Quarian first tried to "permenantly deactivate" them so the Quarian are still way worse.

[Flamin Jesus]

KalosCast wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There's
no way what the Geth did to the Quarians is not Genocide either. And it
was actually successful, unlike the Quarians attempt to do so.

That
would definitely explain why you never meet any of the Quarian Admirals
on a space ship, or see any others on the Citadel, Omega, or your
ship....

Uh, as I said before, way over 99% of all Quarians everywhere died at the hands of the Geth. That's by far worse than any genocide in the 20th Century. Are you saying that the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide and the Rwandan Genocide aren't real genocides or something?

Way over 99%? The Flotilla is absolutely huge, and there are plenty of Quarian who leave it. Though while we're making up numbers, like a jillion percent of the Geth were killed when the Quarian first tried to "permenantly deactivate" them so the Quarian are still way worse.

A population of... what, 300000000? Is not technically huge for this species, but one way or another, both attempted genocide, that one side was more successful than the other doesn't really matter (It's not like the Quarians CHOSE to lose), only two things matter:
1) The Quarians started it, there's no way around that, the Geth hadn't even fired a weapon at the time the Quarians began their campaign.
2) The Geth STOPPED when the Quarians were no longer a threat, they could have easily killed every last one of them. The Quarians? Their aim was to resubjugate the Geth, the thing that made them panic was the fact that the Geth were sentient, all their attempts were targeted at destroying that sentience. Therefore, while they probably wouldn't have physically destroyed every platform, their clear target was (and still is!) to destroy everything that makes the Geth what they are, they would NOT have stopped until they turned the Geth back into their own version of the Collectors.
The (Not quite) Genocide the Geth committed (Which was literally self defense), is nothing compared to the (Complete) Genocide the Quarians planned.

Modifié par Flamin Jesus, 02 juin 2010 - 02:20 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There are 17 Million Quarians in the Migrant Fleet. That is straight ouf of the Codex. And the galaxy speaks of it like the overwhelming majority of Quarians in existence reside there. So it's reasonable to assume every Quarian outside the Flotilla wouldn't add a statistically significant percentage to their population overall. Given that the Migrant Fleet can only support a limited amount of individuals, it is also reasonable to assume that the Quarians who first escaped from Rannoch were roughly similar in number.

The Geth killed billions of Quarians in the Morning War. Tali said as much in the first game. There is no reason to think she was grossly exaggerating. The Quarian population during the days when they lived on their homeworld and colonies was almost certainly more than 2 Billion but I used that as a conservative estimate. If 17 Million Quarians survived out of 2 Billion, then that means that 99.15% percent of all Quarians were exterminated.

The only way that could have happened is if the Geth actively eradicated them. Just because the Quarians wrongly attempted to destroy all Geth as they were achieving sentience doesn't mean it's morally justifiable to commit genocide against their entire species instead.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 juin 2010 - 03:01 .