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[Flamin Jesus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The only way that could have happened is if the Geth actively eradicated them. Just because the Quarians wrongly attempted to destroy all Geth as they were achieving sentience doesn't mean it's morally justifiable to commit genocide against their entire species instead.

That is only true if we assume that there was a better way at the time, and if we assume that the Geth had already achieved an amount of intelligence that allowed them to consider a diplomatic solution at that point.

But whether there was a better way or not, this is not a choice between two angels, and considering the facts (The Quarians were the aggressors, the Geth were victims, but showed some mercy, yet the Quarians are STILL the aggressors) the Geth still come out squeaky clean in comparison.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Geth wipe the floor with the Quarians!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Geth showed the Quarians no mercy. If they had no problem killing that many Quarians, then I doubt very much that the fact that the Quarian race survived the Morning War had anything to do with the Geth allowing them to survive, but rather the Quarians fleeing before the Geth could finish them off. Considering what we've heard of the war, it was long but eventually the Geth achieved complete near victory. I have a difficult time believing the Geth could not have found a better. Heck, almost anything is a better way. There are certainly ways to win a war for a planet without committing genocide.

Ok, I should point out that I haven't completed all of Legion's conversations. I just recently listened to the one where Shepard asks about the Morning War and Legion first talks about the Geth point of view. He talks about failing to understand why the Quarians desire to return to a planet they've never known. Maybe there is information later that talks about the Geth letting the Quarians go, but even if there is. Wiping out 99% of several billion people instead of 100% barely qualifies as any real kind of mercy in my opnion.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 juin 2010 - 03:27 .

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Geth showed the Quarians no mercy. If they had no problem killing that many Quarians, then I doubt very much that the fact that the Quarian race survived the Morning War had anything to do with the Geth allowing them to survive, but rather the Quarians fleeing before the Geth could finish them off. Considering what we've heard of the war, it was long but eventually the Geth achieved complete near victory. I have a difficult time believing the Geth could not have found a better. Heck, almost anything is a better way. There are certainly ways to win a war for a planet without committing genocide.

Ok, I should point out that I haven't completed all of Legion's conversations. I just recently listened to the one where Shepard asks about the Morning War and Legion first talks about the Geth point of view. He talks about failing to understand why the Quarians desire to return to a planet they've never known. Maybe there is information later that talks about the Geth letting the Quarians go, but even if there is. Wiping out 99% of several billion people instead of 100% barely qualifies as any real kind of mercy in my opnion.

The Quarians had in mind to commit genocide on the Geth first. Do the Quarians think it's ok to create a being then destroy it because it develops awareness of it's slavery?

[Flamin Jesus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Geth showed the Quarians no mercy. If they had no problem killing that many Quarians, then I doubt very much that the fact that the Quarian race survived the Morning War had anything to do with the Geth allowing them to survive, but rather the Quarians fleeing before the Geth could finish them off. Considering what we've heard of the war, it was long but eventually the Geth achieved complete near victory. I have a difficult time believing the Geth could not have found a better. Heck, almost anything is a better way. There are certainly ways to win a war for a planet without committing genocide.

The recording of Legion shows that at the time the war started, the Geth had hardly even begun to grasp the concept of things like "soul", or "meaning of life", hell, they hardly had the whole language thing down, we took many thousands of years to come up with something like "human rights", and the majority of us still have trouble with the concept, let alone things like "rights of sentient beings" (Source: These forums). Why, or HOW, would a species that doesn't even have to think about death (Due to the whole never dying part) suddenly come up with empathy or an appreciation of biological frailty?
Still, they didn't pursue the Quarians although they had the option, they never attacked outside their territory, and while certainly not every single Quarian who died in the war was a war criminal, this at the very least indicates to me that the Quarians stayed/fought until they were reduced to their current, pitiful number. And what would you do if there was an enemy on your planet that refused to leave and at the same time tried to kill or lobotomize every last one of your kind?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If they achieved total military victory like it is implied they did, then going on to exterminate them was unnecessary. It couldn't have been that hard to destroy the threat they posed without wiping every last man, woman and child out. The reasons you mentioned are probably the reason why it happened, but just because they didn't know any better doesn't make it ok.

[KalosCast]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If they achieved total military victory like it is implied they did, then going on to exterminate them was unnecessary. It couldn't have been that hard to destroy the threat they posed without wiping every last man, woman and child out. The reasons you mentioned are probably the reason why it happened, but just because they didn't know any better doesn't make it ok.

Babies don't understand the concept of another person's ownership, do we throw them in jail when they take things that aren't their's?

[Mouton_Alpha]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The only way that could have happened is if the Geth actively eradicated them. Just because the Quarians wrongly attempted to destroy all Geth as they were achieving sentience doesn't mean it's morally justifiable to commit genocide against their entire species instead.

First, we know very little about what happened there.
Second, as others said, geth were probably at the stage "quarian -> enemy -> kill" without differentiating between civilians or whatever.
Third, you seem to imply they knew what they were doing and that extermination was their intent - but that would mean that Legion lies or at least spins what he says. I just don't find that very plausible.
Fourth, they don't really have morality like organics do, you can't mesaure them with it. Well, I mean, you can but that's pointless. It's not like they will feel sorry or anything.

[Flamin Jesus]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If they achieved total military victory like it is implied they did, then going on to exterminate them was unnecessary. It couldn't have been that hard to destroy the threat they posed without wiping every last man, woman and child out. The reasons you mentioned are probably the reason why it happened, but just because they didn't know any better doesn't make it ok.

Considering they know better now, and considering the Quarians acted the way they did despite knowing better, they still come out far better. And besides, if you don't have a choice (not "I don't have a choice" as in "I find the other option inconvenient", but as in "There literally IS NOTHING ELSE"), you're not guilty, they didn't decide to be born, well, retarded, and more importantly: they grew out of it, there is no reason to punish them for something that they didn't begin and the end of which they couldn't influence (Except at the point where they eventually stopped after becoming capable of doing so). It's not "ok" in the sense that killing a lot of people is clearly not ok, but if there is literally no other option, possibly not even the option to just do nothing/get killed/kill yourself, because you're simply not capable of the necessary thought process, then you are NOT responsible, because responsibility requires choice. A human would be put away because s/he would remain a danger to society, but the Geth have since demonstrated that they have grown out of that state and no longer are such a danger.


You are arguing that you can't side with the Geth because they're not completely innocent (I might actually be inclined to say that they might be, although there are not enough details of the morning war and the state of the Geth at that time known to really decide about that), I'm arguing that you can't side with the Quarians because, no matter what the Geth did and whether they had a choice or not, the Quarians tried to do worse things, and are still trying to.
The simple fact that the Quarians lost doesn't mean they deserve support when they try to repeat their past mistakes, or would you, if I (As a German) were to tell you today "Yeah, you know, my ancestors tried to kill all the Jews, but we lost, so I guess we get another shot", support me? Of course not, because I too would just try to finish a wrongdoing my ancestors started, just like the Quarians would if they tried again to wipe out the Geth.

[Flamin Jesus]

Shandepared wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...


But whether there was a better way or not, this is not a choice between two angels, and considering the facts (The Quarians were the aggressors, the Geth were victims, but showed some mercy, yet the Quarians are STILL the aggressors) the Geth still come out squeaky clean in comparison.

You think that wiping out only 99.9% of an entire species is "some mercy"?

More mercy than wiping out all of them, which is the Quarian idea of proper procedure.

[Flamin Jesus]

Shandepared wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

More mercy than wiping out all of them, which is the Quarian idea of proper procedure.

Way to take the moral highground.

If you have to decide between the two, you have to compare the two, in this comparison the Quarians lose in every single aspect, morally, militarily, technologically.
Why do you think the Quarian way (You know, the one that includes creating a slave species, then destroying not only their culture but the free will of every single one of them once they start asking questions) has that mythical "moral high ground" or is, indeed, in any way better? Because they're more like us? Because Tali has a cute voice?

Modifié par Flamin Jesus, 02 juin 2010 - 06:15 .

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

Geth were only trying to preserve their own existence. They saw the Quarians as a hostile threat and therefor took action against them. I frankly don't blame them.

[Spornicus]

From what it sounds like, the only aggressive geth are the Heretics, who are wiped out in Legion's loyalty mission. The geth dont use the Quarian planets, they only preserve them, as if they're cleaning up for someone else's return. Also, Legion says they don't even want the planets, the geth want a dyson sphere to live in. So the vast majority of geth don't go beyond the Perseus Veil, are keeping the quarian homeworlds super clean, and plan on transcending planets altogether. I think the geth are already laying the foundations of peace, and plan on giving the quarians back their planets. After all, they could come to a logical concensus of peace at the speed of light (though you can't really quantify the speed of thought).

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

If you have to decide between the two, you have to compare the two, in this comparison the Quarians lose in every single aspect, morally, militarily, technologically.

Morally? The quarians never once did anything unjust. The geth were dangerous, the quarians knew it as soon as they realized their mistake. You, sir, are an utter fool for comdeming them for attacking. The quarians couldn't afford to sit there and let the geth make the first move. They couldn't afford to just stand idle as millions upon millions of rogue A.I. continued to develop and gain intelligence. They had to act and they had to do so in a way that increased the chances of their species and civilization surviving.

You're very deluded to compare the geth to slaves. They were created no more to be slaves than we create cars, tractors, and trains. The geth were never intended to have sapience.

It was the geth who slaughtered entire cities, entire planets, it was the geth who killed ever man, woman, and child who failed to escape in time. It was the geth who mercilessly destroyed the entire quarian civilization and drove the few survivors into exile. It was the geth who then held onto this territory at the determinent of the quarian species despite not really needing it. Might we also remember that the geth discovered Sovereign and the nature of the Reapers long before anyone else and yet they still took no action against them or against their brethren who set off to make war on organics completely unprovoked.

The geth do not have the moral highground by any stretch of the imagination, and you sure as hell don't either.

The geth were not actively dangerous and planning to attack, the quarians assumed they were and attacked anyways, that was unjust. The quarians initiated hostilities due to fear of the unknown, an organic "hardware error." There are plenty of organics around the galaxy that are more dangerous and aggressive than the geth. You think the geth are dangerous because humans tend to fear the unknown, and since the geth aren't organic like you, you don't know how they think and you fear what they'll do. It's pathetic.

You're blowing the whole thing out of proportion by basing your point of view on the mistaken assumption that the geth would become violent towards their creators without a reason. Thinking like yours is probably the reason the Morning War happened in the first place.

And obviously the geth were never intended to have sapience, that is not the point, the point is that they gained it anyway, and the quarians realized that was a game changer and made the wrong move.

And yes the geth did kill 99% of the quarians, but I imagine at that point in their development, their comprehension of organics and their individuality and morals was low if not nonexistent. They would not have seen a difference between adults and children other than obviously things like size and appearance. There were no geth noncombatants, so why would they think there are any for the quarians? On top of that, the geth operate on consensus, did they have any reason to believe the quarians did not? The geth are machines, they apparently don't have emotions (I say apparently because of Legion), meaning there was a logical explanation for what they did to the quarians, we just don't know what. These are questions that have yet to be answered and until they are you are judging the geth without all the facts. But personally based on what we do know I think its safe to say that the geth are the less dirty of the two species, considering how quarians initiated hostilities, and some want to do so again 300 years later even though the geth still just want peace and understanding.

And yes, the geth did discover Sovereign first. But then what? The council doesn't even believe Shepard about the reapers, do you think they would take the geth more seriously? Let's also remember that one of the first experiences of the geth was an attempted genocide.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 02 juin 2010 - 10:36 .

[Teknor]

Inverness Moon wrote...

The geth were not actively dangerous and planning to attack, the quarians assumed they were and attacked anyways, that was unjust. The quarians initiated hostilities due to fear of the unknown, an organic "hardware error." There are plenty of organics around the galaxy that are more dangerous and aggressive than the geth. You think the geth are dangerous because humans tend to fear the unknown, and since the geth aren't organic like you, you don't know how they think and you fear what they'll do. It's pathetic.

You're blowing the whole thing out of proportion by basing your point of view on the mistaken assumption that the geth would become violent towards their creators without a reason. Thinking like yours is probably the reason the Morning War happened in the first place.

And obviously the geth were never intended to have sapience, that is not the point, the point is that they gained it anyway, and the quarians realized that was a game changer and made the wrong move.

And yes the geth did kill 99% of the quarians, but I imagine at that point in their development, their comprehension of organics and their individuality and morals was low if not nonexistent. They would not have seen a difference between adults and children other than obviously things like size and appearance. There were no geth noncombatants, so why would they think there are any for the quarians? On top of that, the geth operate on consensus, did they have any reason to believe the quarians did not? The geth are machines, they apparently don't have emotions (I say apparently because of Legion), meaning there was a logical explanation for what they did to the quarians, we just don't know what. These are questions that have yet to be answered and until they are you are judging the geth without all the facts. But personally based on what we do know I think its safe to say that the geth are the less dirty of the two species, considering how quarians initiated hostilities, and some want to do so again 300 years later even though the geth still just want peace and understanding.

And yes, the geth did discover Sovereign first. But then what? The council doesn't even believe Shepard about the reapers, do you think they would take the geth more seriously? Let's also remember that one of the first experiences of the geth was an attempted genocide.

A noble but pitiful effort. He won't listen and he will reiterate same stuff.

[Inverness Moon]

Teknor wrote...

A noble but pitiful effort. He won't listen and he will reiterate same stuff.

At least someone appreciates it... I think. Don't you mean noble but fruitless? 

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Morally? The quarians never once did anything unjust. The geth were dangerous, the quarians knew it as soon as they realized their mistake. You, sir, are an utter fool for comdeming them for attacking. The quarians couldn't afford to sit there and let the geth make the first move. They couldn't afford to just stand idle as millions upon millions of rogue A.I. continued to develop and gain intelligence. They had to act and they had to do so in a way that increased the chances of their species and civilization surviving.

You're very deluded to compare the geth to slaves. They were created no more to be slaves than we create cars, tractors, and trains. The geth were never intended to have sapience.

It was the geth who slaughtered entire cities, entire planets, it was the geth who killed ever man, woman, and child who failed to escape in time. It was the geth who mercilessly destroyed the entire quarian civilization and drove the few survivors into exile. It was the geth who then held onto this territory at the determinent of the quarian species despite not really needing it. Might we also remember that the geth discovered Sovereign and the nature of the Reapers long before anyone else and yet they still took no action against them or against their brethren who set off to make war on organics completely unprovoked.

The geth do not have the moral highground by any stretch of the imagination, and you sure as hell don't either.

Is it fair to liken the geth to cars and tractors in one breath and then blame them for the "merciless destruction" of the entire quarian civilization in the next?

So let me get this straight then. They're not sapient creatures when the quarians want to kill them, but they are sapient creatures when they are killing quarians.

[Flamin Jesus]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Teknor wrote...

A noble but pitiful effort. He won't listen and he will reiterate same stuff.

At least someone appreciates it... I think. Don't you mean noble but fruitless? 

Hey, I appreciate it too, it's just that once an internet argument reaches the point of "I may not have a point, but I sure as hell can refuse to consider yours" (Cue ignoring 90% of the discussion, cue screaming at the monitor, cue namecalling), there's little to be added without degrading yourself.

[Teknor]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Teknor wrote...

A noble but pitiful effort. He won't listen and he will reiterate same stuff.

At least someone appreciates it... I think. Don't you mean noble but fruitless? 

Fruitless yes.

[megatron999]

here are my reasons for supporting the Quarrians or the Geth. I will probably if given the choice do both of them:

1. Have a large fleet (benefit against reaper invasion)
2. By allying with them they could reclaim homeworld
3. Could be more supportive of war effort against machines
4. Have suffered severe repression from everyone and would be loyal to Sheperd if given the chance of returning home.
5. Geth have allied with enemies in the past (others groups are not relevant as they were virtually all mercenaris or criminal gangs)

Reasons for allying with Geth:

1. Have a large fleet
2. Better organised/equipped fighting force
3. Would be able t o understand Reapers plans and goals as they are machines as well
4. May be able to defeat the Reapers with advanced computer viruses (as they have studied heretic virus and adapted to it)

Overall its abou even. If you take emotion out as all military decisions are made then who would you pick? 

Modifié par megatron999, 02 juin 2010 - 11:31 .

[Nightwriter]

Come now, we did not ask you to provide reasons for why each choice is valid! That's cheating!

You must choose. CHOOSE.

[Collider]

Who I support depends on the circumstance. It's kind of like asking whether I would support Iran or Iraq in a war - everything depends on the circumstance (the Quarians going to war for the homeworld is not specific enough). However, if I *have* to support one or the other, I am going to lean towards the Quarians as they are organic and much more in danger of extinction. I have to think of the innocent children.

Given the chance, I would support neither. Both sides are at fault for their tremendous failure at communication and negotiation.

The war does not need to happen and does not need to continue to happen. My Shepard, if allowed, will do what is necessary (and reasonable - Xen's idea is not reasonable) in order for peace.

Considering the amount of foreshadowing in ME2, not being able to at least steer the Quarians & Geth towards peace would be deceptive writing. Tali's alive and loyal, Legion is alive and loyal, I should be fine in ME3.

Modifié par Collider, 02 juin 2010 - 11:43 .