Reasons for siding with the Geth:
1. If the Quarians do something stupid like that, they have to live with the consequences themselves.
2. The Geth could tear their fleet and forces easily.
3. Geth have proven themselves as being quite peaceloving, only taking action when they are being attacked themselves. While the Quarians have been really ignorant, when it comes to the Geth.
Reasons for siding with Quarians:
1. They are alive and feel pain, whilst the Geth do not feel pain and do not die.
2. Years of being away from their homeplanet and living as galactic outlaws have made them understandably bitter, emphasis on understandably, It is very natural that they lust for their homeworld.
[Poll] Who would you side with in the Quarian/Geth war?
Débuté par
scorptatious
, mai 28 2010 08:46
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#302
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 12:06
2pac Shakur
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Steingrimur Steingrimsson wrote...
2. Years of being away from their homeplanet and living as galactic outlaws have made them understandably bitter, emphasis on understandably, It is very natural that they lust for their homeworld.
which is their retarded fault. Instead of admitting to their mistakes and trying to reconcile with the geth, they moan and b*tch about being space gypsies.
#303
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 01:21
Guanxii
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I'd side with the Geth as it's the only logical choice; the propagators of genocide & slavery got what they deserved.
After rightfully gaining their independence in the Geth-Creator revolutionary war from the hands of tyranny and oppression the (true) Geth for hundreds of years have demonstrated their will for peaceful co-existance and only sought conflict as a last resort. The Quarians always resort to violence first and as we speak are in the midst of mounting another ill advised war of aggression (war crime) against the colonists and will most probably be annihilated at their own hands.
The quarians cannot and will not win a war against the Geth. Their numbers and military strength are too strong. The only option for the Quarians is to formally recognise the independence of the Geth and to sign a peace treaty on terms agreeable to the Geth. The Geth may secede the Quarian homeworld to secure peaceful co-existance and their own independent course of development. In any advent of war, I support the Geth.
After rightfully gaining their independence in the Geth-Creator revolutionary war from the hands of tyranny and oppression the (true) Geth for hundreds of years have demonstrated their will for peaceful co-existance and only sought conflict as a last resort. The Quarians always resort to violence first and as we speak are in the midst of mounting another ill advised war of aggression (war crime) against the colonists and will most probably be annihilated at their own hands.
The quarians cannot and will not win a war against the Geth. Their numbers and military strength are too strong. The only option for the Quarians is to formally recognise the independence of the Geth and to sign a peace treaty on terms agreeable to the Geth. The Geth may secede the Quarian homeworld to secure peaceful co-existance and their own independent course of development. In any advent of war, I support the Geth.
#304
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 01:23
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Inverness Moon wrote...
At least someone appreciates it... I think. Don't you mean noble but fruitless?
Add misguided and thoughtless to that description.
Nightwriter wrote...
Is it fair to liken the geth to cars and tractors in one breath and then blame them for the "merciless destruction" of the entire quarian civilization in the next?
So let me get this straight then. They're not sapient creatures when the quarians want to kill them, but they are sapient creatures when they are killing quarians.
Odd that Dean called you a smart person in another thread. I'm afraid you've entirled missed the point. I'll simplify it for you: the other poster was slamming the quarians for intentionally creating the slave race. This is wrong because the quarians did not build slaves; they built mindless machines. Obviously those machines later became something more and at that point the quarians no longer wished to keep them [i]precisely because they did not desire slaves[i].
Modifié par Shandepared, 02 juin 2010 - 01:30 .
#305
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 02:00
Nightwriter
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You are as sportsmanlike a debater as ever, Shand.
When the quarians created the geth they did not believe they were creating a sapient slave race, no.
However when they decided to annihilate the geth, they did and should have understood they were killing sapient beings.
My post was in response to your statement, "The quarians never once did anything unjust." The attempt to annihilate a sentient race is unjust.
And even though the quarians did not make the geth with slavery in mind, they did create a slave race. The poster's comment was not invalid - nor did I see any indication he meant the geth were intended as slaves at the time of their conception. However the moment the geth became sentient, the quarians became enslavers.
Also, the quarians did not try to destroy the geth because they did not desire slaves, but because they feared a revolution. We know they most certainly did desire a labor force.
When the quarians created the geth they did not believe they were creating a sapient slave race, no.
However when they decided to annihilate the geth, they did and should have understood they were killing sapient beings.
My post was in response to your statement, "The quarians never once did anything unjust." The attempt to annihilate a sentient race is unjust.
And even though the quarians did not make the geth with slavery in mind, they did create a slave race. The poster's comment was not invalid - nor did I see any indication he meant the geth were intended as slaves at the time of their conception. However the moment the geth became sentient, the quarians became enslavers.
Also, the quarians did not try to destroy the geth because they did not desire slaves, but because they feared a revolution. We know they most certainly did desire a labor force.
Modifié par Nightwriter, 02 juin 2010 - 02:01 .
#306
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 02:07
Collider
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They didn't create a slave race. They created machines. Saying they created a slave race is like saying Dell or Microsoft are creating slave races with their PCs & operating system software. A race/people by definition would need culture and sapience. The Geth were created with none.
They weren't trying to annihilate the Geth. They were shutting them down. Essentially, the coding of the Geth malfunctioned and some units became AI. Artifical Intelligence is illegal in Citadel law and there are heavy punishments for them. As the Quarians were only aware of a few models at most becoming sapient, I do not see what they did as intentional genocide.
First of all, all they were doing was shutting them down. That is not killing. You can reboot your computer after shutting it down, for example.
Secondly, they were only aware of a few models developing sapience - so shutting down all of the geth could easily be seen as trying to avoid other models developing sapience (malfunctioning).
They weren't trying to annihilate the Geth. They were shutting them down. Essentially, the coding of the Geth malfunctioned and some units became AI. Artifical Intelligence is illegal in Citadel law and there are heavy punishments for them. As the Quarians were only aware of a few models at most becoming sapient, I do not see what they did as intentional genocide.
First of all, all they were doing was shutting them down. That is not killing. You can reboot your computer after shutting it down, for example.
Secondly, they were only aware of a few models developing sapience - so shutting down all of the geth could easily be seen as trying to avoid other models developing sapience (malfunctioning).
Modifié par Collider, 02 juin 2010 - 02:08 .
#307
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 02:49
Mouton_Alpha
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Even if you treat the Quarian attempt to eliminate the geth a simple "maintenance of their pcs", it doesn't change the fact that it is them who initiated violence. When you start a war - even a morally right one - you become partly responsible for its outcome. Especially when it backfires.
#308
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 03:08
Cpl_Facehugger
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Collider wrote...
They didn't create a slave race. They created machines. Saying they created a slave race is like saying Dell or Microsoft are creating slave races with their PCs & operating system software. A race/people by definition would need culture and sapience. The Geth were created with none.
However, the geth developed sapience. The quarians didn't set out with the goal of creating a slave race, but that's what ended up happening because they didn't put sufficient limiters in their robots. Also, admiral Xen'Morrigan is pretty clearly a slaver, trying to enslave the geth now.
They weren't trying to annihilate the Geth. They were shutting them down. Essentially, the coding of the Geth malfunctioned and some units became AI. Artifical Intelligence is illegal in Citadel law and there are heavy punishments for them. As the Quarians were only aware of a few models at most becoming sapient, I do not see what they did as intentional genocide.
By shutting the sapient geth down and "fixing" their programming, you're basically exterminating all the sapient geth. It's much the same way that I'd argue lobotomizing every human being and turning them into a mindless animal would also be exterminating humanity. The physical husks would still be "alive", but they wouldn't be people because they have no capacity for higher thought.
First of all, all they were doing was shutting them down. That is not killing. You can reboot your computer after shutting it down, for example.
The whole point of shutting them down was so the quarians could "fix" their programming. With that fix being "make it so they aren't sapient, so the Citadel doesn't come down hard on us for making AI."
Secondly, they were only aware of a few models developing sapience - so shutting down all of the geth could easily be seen as trying to avoid other models developing sapience (malfunctioning).
Were they only aware of a few models turning sapient? Considering that geth intellects are totally software based and formed from a concensus of several hundred/thousand runtimes, I rather doubt it'd only be a few physical platforms that achieved sapience.
#309
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 03:15
Guanxii
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Collider wrote...
They didn't create a slave race. They created machines. Saying they created a slave race is like saying Dell or Microsoft are creating slave races with their PCs & operating system software. A race/people by definition would need culture and sapience. The Geth were created with none.
They weren't trying to annihilate the Geth. They were shutting them down. Essentially, the coding of the Geth malfunctioned and some units became AI. Artifical Intelligence is illegal in Citadel law and there are heavy punishments for them. As the Quarians were only aware of a few models at most becoming sapient, I do not see what they did as intentional genocide.
First of all, all they were doing was shutting them down. That is not killing. You can reboot your computer after shutting it down, for example.
Secondly, they were only aware of a few models developing sapience - so shutting down all of the geth could easily be seen as trying to avoid other models developing sapience (malfunctioning).
All forms of life are anomalies and accidental by their very nature just as freak and unforeseen an occurrence as the natural development of non-organic sentience and there are plenty of examples of biological life-forms that lack self-awareness, identity and culture.
Dell PC's are just inanimate objects as the Geth were, the organic equivalent being trees and flowers, etc. As soon as a tree can begin to ask itself whether or not it has a soul then you can just a similarly begin to question the morality of using mahogany tables in your house, or keeping brain-dead coma patients alive.
No if's or buts, the Geth naturally evolved over time much as we did to become more than simply nuts and bolts, hardware and software in the way that we human beings evolved from bacteria to become more than just constructs of flesh and bone tissue. If you couldn't die or feel pain you wouldn't fear death either.
Human consciousness is just a collection of chemical reactions in the brain, Geth consciousness is a merely a collection of collective software processes, the only difference being they can't but help share their thoughts/brainpower - whereas we have to do that the old fashioned way.
We know they are social creatures and that their language was created through social interaction much as ours was. We know that Geth society is splintering... perhaps into different cultures and who knows maybe eventually even shared group identities and beyond one day - who are we to deny them the chance to grow and live as other species?
Lumping all organic and non-organic species together is silly. I bet there are carbon and non-carbon based organic species that we have less in common with such as the Vorcha than the Geth.
Modifié par Guanxii, 02 juin 2010 - 03:47 .
#310
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 03:16
Inverness Moon
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Firstly, of course they didn't create a slave race, but the geth obviously became something more and gained sapience.Collider wrote...
They didn't create a slave race. They created machines. Saying they created a slave race is like saying Dell or Microsoft are creating slave races with their PCs & operating system software. A race/people by definition would need culture and sapience. The Geth were created with none.
They weren't trying to annihilate the Geth. They were shutting them down. Essentially, the coding of the Geth malfunctioned and some units became AI. Artifical Intelligence is illegal in Citadel law and there are heavy punishments for them. As the Quarians were only aware of a few models at most becoming sapient, I do not see what they did as intentional genocide.
First of all, all they were doing was shutting them down. That is not killing. You can reboot your computer after shutting it down, for example.
Secondly, they were only aware of a few models developing sapience - so shutting down all of the geth could easily be seen as trying to avoid other models developing sapience (malfunctioning).
The geth did not malfunction, their ascension from VI to AI was the result of their programming working too well. They were designed for self-improvement and found they could perform better when operating in networks. So they did that and eventually "woke up," it was not a malfunction. By design, all of the geth would have eventually gained sapience.
And you say they weren't trying to annihilate the geth, but shut them down. Shut them down for what reason exactly? The geth fought for the right to exist, if you shut them down if they have already gained sapience or before they inevitably gain sapience, you're taking that right from them. You make it sound as if shutting them down was only a temporary thing and they weren't going to lobotomize them while they were shut down to prevent them from gaining sapience again. I'd call that annihilation if that was their intention.
And yes computers can be rebooted, but if someone were to forcefully put you into a coma where they could control when and IF you would ever wake up, they are in control and can prevent you from living the life you want to, the geth obviously did not want that, and I doubt there is any reason to think that geth would ever awaken again with their sapience intact, so they fought.
I'll also asking you what you think they did with the geth that they knew gained sapience? Do you think they were welcomed with open arms or destroyed?
And after writing that I can't help compare shutting down the geth to abortion, if the quarians knew they would all eventually become sapient. The quarians didn't want to deal with the responsibility and consequences of their actions however unintentional.
Modifié par Inverness Moon, 02 juin 2010 - 03:20 .
#311
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 03:19
Andrew_Waltfeld
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Ah the epic battle of two moral grounds that are almost as low as the batarians continues.
Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 02 juin 2010 - 03:23 .
#312
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 03:27
Teknor
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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Ah the epic battle of two moral grounds that are almost as low as the batarians continues.
What ?
#313
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 03:29
Thatguy38
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Based on evidence presented, here is how it would probably play out. Xen decides to use the research to try to control the Geth. There is a schism in the Quarian council, possibly full out civil war. The rogue Quarians, led by Xen may or may not get rogue factions of Geth to work with them, again depending on decisions you made in ME2, as to whether or not to preserve the heretics programming. The quarians rebelling against Xen decide to work WITH the Geth to stop Xen from taking over the homeworld, which would be bad for everyone, because she is so obviously a megalomaniac, and only cares for her own interests (again, speculation). After Xen is put down, then the Quarians and Geth make some sort of peace accord. Again, just speculation.
Xen is Lore for all intents and purposes, wanting to use the Geth (Borg) for her own gain.
But if I HAD to choose sides, I would have to side with the Geth, even though I too have Tali as my LI in most of my games. The Geth are just too numerous, and they really didn't start this war.
Xen is Lore for all intents and purposes, wanting to use the Geth (Borg) for her own gain.
But if I HAD to choose sides, I would have to side with the Geth, even though I too have Tali as my LI in most of my games. The Geth are just too numerous, and they really didn't start this war.
Modifié par Thatguy38, 02 juin 2010 - 03:32 .
#314
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 10:40
megatron999
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Thatguy38 wrote...
Based on evidence presented, here is how it would probably play out. Xen decides to use the research to try to control the Geth. There is a schism in the Quarian council, possibly full out civil war. The rogue Quarians, led by Xen may or may not get rogue factions of Geth to work with them, again depending on decisions you made in ME2, as to whether or not to preserve the heretics programming. The quarians rebelling against Xen decide to work WITH the Geth to stop Xen from taking over the homeworld, which would be bad for everyone, because she is so obviously a megalomaniac, and only cares for her own interests (again, speculation). After Xen is put down, then the Quarians and Geth make some sort of peace accord. Again, just speculation.
Xen is Lore for all intents and purposes, wanting to use the Geth (Borg) for her own gain.
But if I HAD to choose sides, I would have to side with the Geth, even though I too have Tali as my LI in most of my games. The Geth are just too numerous, and they really didn't start this war.
"The Quarrian/Geth situation reminds me of Terminator rise of the machines. e.g. Humans make machines to make life easier-Machines become intelligent-Man goes mental-Machines act in self defense start war-humans are then driven out almost to extinction."
If that did happend then my only option would be to support the Geth as having Xen lead the Geth would be a disaster. Akin to if the Reapers somehow hacked the Geth to be there army.
#315
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 10:49
Rykn
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Damn it's been one mistake after another with the quarians and geth and I'll be damned if I don't resolve it between them peacefully! If either of them try to kill each other the reapers will leave none alive.
#316
Guest_Mukora_*
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 10:51
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This man speaks the truth.Rykn wrote...
Damn it's been one mistake after another with the quarians and geth and I'll be damned if I don't resolve it between them peacefully! If either of them try to kill each other the reapers will leave none alive.
#318
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 11:40
vvDRUCILLAvv
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NICKjnp wrote...
/uploads_group/3000/2048/5511.jpg
QFT!!!!
#319
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 11:43
Vaenier
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Half Life 2 engine thingy? The shadows and textures just have that feel for some reason.vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...
NICKjnp wrote...
/uploads_group/3000/2048/5511.jpg
QFT!!!!
#320
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 11:47
NICKjnp
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Yeah there are several of these... there is one where Tali has killed Legion as well.Vaenier wrote...
Half Life 2 engine thingy? The shadows and textures just have that feel for some reason.vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...
NICKjnp wrote...
/uploads_group/3000/2048/5511.jpg
QFT!!!!
#321
Posté 02 juin 2010 - 11:48
NICKjnp
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Sometimes you can't help yourself... and I love your sig. I always bring Grunt.vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...
NICKjnp wrote...
/uploads_group/3000/2048/5511.jpg
QFT!!!!
#322
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 12:17
GnusmasTHX
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Quarians. Geth are massive failures. For their talk about not wanting to fight the Quarians or whatever, it didn't stop them from systematically exterminating their race. Hell, they even invaded space stations when they could've just left after conquering the planet.
Only AFTER all the Quarians are dead do they leave their home planet, expecting them to come back and in the meantime acting as "caretakers". What kind of logic is that? Lulz.
Only AFTER all the Quarians are dead do they leave their home planet, expecting them to come back and in the meantime acting as "caretakers". What kind of logic is that? Lulz.
#323
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 12:53
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Nightwriter wrote...
However when they decided to annihilate the geth, they did and should have understood they were killing sapient beings.
My post was in response to your statement, "The quarians never once did anything unjust." The attempt to annihilate a sentient race is unjust.
They thought they were killing a few sapient machines and that they'd be preventing the rest from ever achieving that sentience. Was it was unjust? That depends on your perspective. If you think the quarians should put the welfare of potentially hostile beings on the same level of importance as quarian lives then I suppose it is. However I don't see it that way. The concern of the quarian government was the welfare of the quarian people, nobody else. Had they attempted to remain neutral to the entire situation they'd have been risking total annihilation. They did not have the benefit of hindsight like you, Inverness Moon, and every other brainless idiot who insists on condemning them for taking action. Had the quarians gambled for peace and lost then far fewer or even none of them would be around in the present.
The geth had evolved beyond the scope of their design, that made them unpredictable. A.I. were already heavily regulated because of their inherent danger, and that is A.I. that you intentionally create. The geth were an accident. Worse yet the quarians weren't talking about just one rogue A.I. here; they were faced with millions of them. Constructs that the quarians knew via' virtue of their station in quarian society who could threaten the survival of the species. The geth were integrated into every facet of the quarian civilization. Military, labor, service, production, security, everything.
The proof that the quarian's fears were quite justified is in the fact that the geth won. Despite being struck first they rallied, organized, and defeated the quarians completely.
A government cannot always base its decisions upon another entity's motives, sometimes the most rational thing they do is to base it on their capabilities. The capabilities of the geth demanded pro-active action to neutralize the threat before it became to big to manage. Sadly, it had already reached that point.
#324
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 02:07
sumof all fear
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Make war not love, I'm going with the geth.
#325
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 02:09
Azint
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This whole thing is much more morally ambiguous than people give it credit for.
One one hand, we have the choice between living beings and machines. On the other hand, the machines are clearly better suited for aid in war.
Although the geth are machines, programs that build up a network to run themselves, their sentience is in question. True, down to it, they are still machines, but the way they react, learn, express their own views and try to fit in, it really does seem like they may just be sentient after all. And equating them with toasters is a poor arguement, a toaster is not self-aware, it does not speak, it does not try to understand, it is a simple object with no value as a being, the geth clearly do think.
Je pense donc je suis
"I think therefore I am"
What was done to them is still an act of fear, even if you would not call it genocide. The geth evidently had not planned to overthrow the quarians, they were simply trying to understand their place in the universe, but the quarians tried to destroy them all because they were afriad of what they could do rather than try to reason with them. If reason failed, the party who attacks first is the guilty one, but the quarians are the ones who did the preemptive attack.
The quarians now should not suffer for what the quarians then did. These quarians are not the same people who tried to wipe out the geth, they are the true victims in this, paying for what their ancestors tried to do. They are suffering and paying the price for something they never actually did, and the galactic community treat them poorly for it. You doom a race, and of course their children will be desperate to live, but do you really blame the child? It's not fair for them.
But here is the other issue, neither party are in any rush to try and make ammends. The quarians have tried to retake their homeworld in war, and for their troubles, the geth shot them down. The quarians repeatedly try and attack out of desperation, but the geth continously stop them. The quarian's xenophobia towards the geth is understandable, these are the machines that ruined them, but it is not right to continue this without trying any other alternative. The geth are not so innocen either, while they were attacked first, they nearly wiped out their own creators and made no apologies for it, not until much later. Even though the geth are open to peace, so says Legion, they are doing a very poor job at expressing their interest. It may just be the first attempt at peace, but everyone deserves to hear each other out and understand what went wrong.
That's why this whole choosing one side business is tough. At least in a moral and ethical standing.
One one hand, we have the choice between living beings and machines. On the other hand, the machines are clearly better suited for aid in war.
Although the geth are machines, programs that build up a network to run themselves, their sentience is in question. True, down to it, they are still machines, but the way they react, learn, express their own views and try to fit in, it really does seem like they may just be sentient after all. And equating them with toasters is a poor arguement, a toaster is not self-aware, it does not speak, it does not try to understand, it is a simple object with no value as a being, the geth clearly do think.
Je pense donc je suis
"I think therefore I am"
What was done to them is still an act of fear, even if you would not call it genocide. The geth evidently had not planned to overthrow the quarians, they were simply trying to understand their place in the universe, but the quarians tried to destroy them all because they were afriad of what they could do rather than try to reason with them. If reason failed, the party who attacks first is the guilty one, but the quarians are the ones who did the preemptive attack.
The quarians now should not suffer for what the quarians then did. These quarians are not the same people who tried to wipe out the geth, they are the true victims in this, paying for what their ancestors tried to do. They are suffering and paying the price for something they never actually did, and the galactic community treat them poorly for it. You doom a race, and of course their children will be desperate to live, but do you really blame the child? It's not fair for them.
But here is the other issue, neither party are in any rush to try and make ammends. The quarians have tried to retake their homeworld in war, and for their troubles, the geth shot them down. The quarians repeatedly try and attack out of desperation, but the geth continously stop them. The quarian's xenophobia towards the geth is understandable, these are the machines that ruined them, but it is not right to continue this without trying any other alternative. The geth are not so innocen either, while they were attacked first, they nearly wiped out their own creators and made no apologies for it, not until much later. Even though the geth are open to peace, so says Legion, they are doing a very poor job at expressing their interest. It may just be the first attempt at peace, but everyone deserves to hear each other out and understand what went wrong.
That's why this whole choosing one side business is tough. At least in a moral and ethical standing.
