752 réponses à ce sujet

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Teknor wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Ah the epic battle of two moral grounds that are almost as low as the batarians continues.

What ?

Moral Ground for quarians - they support slavery of an sentient spieces.
Moral ground for Geth - Mostly past actions, Genocide, nearly wiping out the quarians. Them finishing the job apparently.

otherwords - this is gonna be an long debate, and I thought it had ended on like page 9 and 10 and the thread would die, apparently not. >.>

I am currently enjoying observing it though, interesting food for thought.

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

However
when they decided to annihilate the geth, they did and should have
understood they were killing sapient beings.

My post was in
response to your statement, "The quarians never once did anything
unjust." The attempt to annihilate a sentient race is unjust.

They
thought they were killing a few sapient machines and that they'd be
preventing the rest from ever achieving that sentience. Was it was
unjust? That depends on your perspective. If you think the quarians
should put the welfare of potentially hostile beings on the same level
of importance as quarian lives then I suppose it is. However I don't see
it that way. The concern of the quarian government was the welfare of
the quarian people, nobody else. Had they attempted to remain neutral to
the entire situation they'd have been risking total annihilation. They
did not have the benefit of hindsight like you, Inverness Moon, and
every other brainless idiot who insists on condemning them for taking
action. Had the quarians gambled for peace and lost then far fewer or
even none of them would be around in the present.

Actually most of the arguements meanly pointing an different action could have taken place and should have been considered. It's an common view (maybe not correct) that perhaps the quarians jumped the gun on it as well. 

The geth had
evolved beyond the scope of their design, that made them unpredictable.
A.I. were already heavily regulated because of their inherent danger,
and that is A.I. that you intentionally create. The geth were an
accident. Worse yet the quarians weren't talking about just one
rogue A.I. here; they were faced with millions of them.

Actually we don't know that they thought it was individual sentient machines, if it was, what they failed to realize was that it was the entire geth networked together. They probably didn't even realize till it was far too late to
do anything about it. Secondly, it wasn't an Rogue A.I. until it starts killing things. It's an AI that is now estinally doing slave labor. So the quarians decided to extinguish said AI before the Citadel found out, and before the geth could revolt they didn't like working in hazardous conditions.

Constructs that the quarians knew via' virtue of their station in
quarian society who could threaten the survival of the species. The geth
were integrated into every facet of the quarian civilization. Military,
labor, service, production, security, everything.

The proof that
the quarian's fears were quite justified is in the fact that the geth
won. Despite being struck first they rallied, organized, and defeated
the quarians completely. 

A government cannot always base its
decisions upon another entity's motives, sometimes the most rational
thing they do is to base it on their capabilities. The
capabilities of the geth demanded pro-active action to neutralize the
threat before it became to big to manage. Sadly, it had already reached
that point.

The problem with your statement is that the quarians STARTED it. Of course it was "justified" in the end, they provoked the geth, that's like saying "This animal MAY or MAYNOT kill me down the road. It's an very large creature however, so if I fail in my first strike, I am mostly like going to get killed. "

The geth were already too large of an threat in numbers alone. The quarians under-estimated the Geth and paid for it dearly. The quarians would not have attacked the geth had they realized that the geth were acting as an hive mind. Had they known, they would have negotiated first.

In my opinon, it's not really the morning war that is of the concern, it is now of the present and future conditions. One can argue about the past and say such person was an idiot for this or not. But the main concern is about the appoaching geth/Quarian conflict. Staying in the past, means you do not have an future.

Everyone is going to have their views of the quarians were stupid or not in their decision early on, it really doesn't matter anymore to be honest. What matters now is if you support which side of the coin-

Slavery

or

Annihilation

Good old re-hashed situation with Saren from ME1. Do you want to live as an slave, or get annihilated?

Would you like the geth to live as slaves, or the quarians to get anihilated? I personally prefer peace. and I see the quarians making another foolish move, I warned them against it, but if they don't listen, I am going to be going so renegrade on their asses it's not even funny till I slap some sense into them.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 03 juin 2010 - 02:17 .

[SojournerN7]

I'm going to play to both sides for the most "Role-Playing Element" rewards cliché. Then tell them that they are both mature groups of peoples in the galaxy and let them sort it out on thier own. No time to babysit a war, Shepard's got to make it 3-0 against the reapers.

[Azint]

Shandepared wrote...

Which is meaningless to the quarians if they are extinct. "Better to live in contradiction than to decay righteously." You would condemn their entire species to annihilation out of a sense of fairness. So far you seem like a reasonably smart individual so I implore you to really think about this. What good does just action do the quarians if it drives them to extinction? They could not know ahead of time that the geth desired peace. Furthermore, what could they offer to the geth in a negotiation? The geth weren't terribly sophisticated if their actions during the war are any indication. Furthermore, the geth were stronger and as they got smarter they'd know it. The longer the quarians waited the more in danger they'd be.

According to the history explained in-game, the quarians attacked right away when they established that the geth were becoming smarter. Not all the details were explained, but it was never mentioned that the quarians at least tried to reason with the geth. They were afraid of what could happen, so they attacked first, that is a survival instinct, but not a rational response. Even if the quarians did not have any leverage, does it still justify them trying to wipe out the geth? Any sense of appeal is still appealment, a hostile reaction to something confused is not a good way to try and level things. It's all moot though, since neither party was really in the position to try and understand the other.

Shandepared wrote...

The quarians have never tried to retake their homeworld; but they did defend it during the Morning War. Since then the quarians have never entered their old space. (To hear this you need to take Legion to Haestrom)

It's been a long time since I last played, but I do recall Legion mentioning that every chance the quarians saw for a campaign to retake the homeworld, they took it. This is when you speak to Zaal'Koris with Legion present, if I remember it correctly.

Modifié par Azint, 03 juin 2010 - 02:31 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

 Secondly, it wasn't an Rogue A.I. until it starts killing things.[/quote]

A rogue A.I. is an A.I. that you did not create and/or do not control. The geth were not created to be A.I. and they had evolved beyond the control of their creators. This makes them rogue.
[/quote]
Tom ato, to ma to.


[quote][quote]

The problem with your statement is that the quarians STARTED it.[/quote]

It doesn't matter how many times I repeat this you people just don't get it. I don't know if it is becuase I am just not that good at communicating my ideas or if it is because the rest of you are just that dumb. Before hostilities ever began the quarians would have been aware of what capabilities the geth would have.
[/quote]

Yes and every human gun owner could be an psycho on the edge. I understand the full Capabilities of the geth at the time. I just think acting on capabiltiies alone is fool-hardy and stupid. Your ideas get across to me at least, they just don't work in my mind becuase that is not I think.

[quote]
They afterall built them to be machines of war and labor. This is what I mean by their fear. They knew that if the geth became violent that they'd be able to threaten the survival of the quarian species.
[/quote]
Yes and If Yellowstone ever erupts, we all be screwed. If the USA and other nuclear countries lost control of their factilities, we all be ****ed. If the sun decides to emite an very large solar flare, we are ****ed. I would feel threatened by the geth, but acting on said fear is asking for trouble. Fear is an instinct. When you act on instinict is when you have very limited amount of time to think and use your brain. That is when it is ok to act on fear.

However The quarians had plenty of time to think this through.

[quote]
This proven when the geth do become violent and they nearly drive the quarians to extinction. It is true that the geth only became violent (supposeldy) because the quarians moved against them. However that is beside the point.
[/quote]
Yes by Quarians actions. If I walk up and punch an much bigger guy in the face. Do you think he's going to punch me back? You betcha. Do you think he is within right to continue said fight? You betcha.

The qurians started an fight they could not win in the first place. That is just bad TACTICS in general.


[quote]
Let me try an analogy, maybe it penetrate that thick lump of stupid and fat you consider a brain.
[/quote]
Now, now, no need for insults. We are adults here. I am an new comer as well, so I missed your lectures.

[quote]
I am faced with a grizzly bear. I can't tell if the bear means to do me harm or not, but I know that if it attacks me I may die. From this point forward I may take any number of actions which may or may not result in provoking the bear. The bear could even attack no matter what I do because I am unknowingly threatening its cubs merely by being present. Regardless, if the bear attacks and I'm left greviously injured then I'd have proof that my fears of what the bear could do to me were justified.
[/quote]
That is true enough.

[quote]
In fact, you could use this analogy to see things either perspective concerning the geth and quarians. 

The quarains could not know what the geth would do to them, only what they were capable of doing to them. In other words, they didn't know if the geth would attack or not but they did know what would happen if they did. That is why a first strike was needed on their part. If they waited and the geth attacked first their chances of survival would be severely diminished.
 [/quote]
Actually, they were ****ed either way.

When faced with an more numerous enemy, that is currently neither provoked nor docile, you don't stab it in the back hoping you severed it's SPINE. Equate it to the Bee's nest. An very very large bee's nest. I could smash the hive and spray my super duper anti-bee spray, might get all the bees, but they might kill me. Or the bees might attack randomly and kill me any way.

Well, I can either be nice to the bees, and leave the damn bee's alone, or I could leave the area.

I personally would have told the geth to continue working and ponder the ultimate question that results in the answer of 42 and start evacing. But that's just me.

Leaving, well that is not an option. Not enough ships, not enough supplies etc etc. I could attack, MIGHT succed, might not, and kill the geth. I could live with the geth, and they may or may not stop working with me. See, the difference here is, you assume the geth might kill you. Why would they? Isn't usually the first step of revolt is to throw down one's tools and say "I am not working for you anymore?"

[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Had they known, they would have negotiated first.[/quote]

Negotiate what?
[/quote]
I dunno, see if the geth don't mind working for them?

And if they stopped working for me? I just
create some more constricted VI's to take their place and ask the geth
to either be an contributating member of society, or ask them to move to
an planet that is out of the way. No harm, no foul. More than likely, I would have choosen the second option and send some decent quarians to make sure the geth are treated nicely as they exist stage left.

[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Good old re-hashed situation with Saren from ME1. Do you want to live as an slave, or get annihilated?[/quote]

Better for me that the geth live as slaves and in the end that's what matters.
[/quote]

With those options, I think I rather face annihilation. A slave gets to live, but living would be hell. Think I rather be dead then worked to death. Problem I have noted in our little arguement is that you do not side at all with the geth and take their POV. I have taken into account both. 

Adds... perspective to the debate if you do that.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 03 juin 2010 - 02:55 .

[Bookman230]

Shandepard, I just want to say I respect you for your opinions. you take the less PR friendly route, the less accepted views. You side with the quarians, you side with Cerberus(from what I've seen), and you don't give an inch. though I disagree with you, you are a great debater, if a bit vicious at times.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

 Somehow I get the feeling that most who side with the Quarians are just biased.

[Teknor]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

 Somehow I get the feeling that most who side with the Quarians are just biased.

Of course. The matter is simple. Quarians pushed and the geth pushed back. 

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

However when they decided to annihilate the geth, they did and should have understood they were killing sapient beings.

My post was in response to your statement, "The quarians never once did anything unjust." The attempt to annihilate a sentient race is unjust.

They thought they were killing a few sapient machines and that they'd be preventing the rest from ever achieving that sentience. Was it was unjust? That depends on your perspective. If you think the quarians should put the welfare of potentially hostile beings on the same level of importance as quarian lives then I suppose it is. However I don't see it that way. The concern of the quarian government was the welfare of the quarian people, nobody else. Had they attempted to remain neutral to the entire situation they'd have been risking total annihilation. They did not have the benefit of hindsight like you, Inverness Moon, and every other brainless idiot who insists on condemning them for taking action. Had the quarians gambled for peace and lost then far fewer or even none of them would be around in the present.

The geth had evolved beyond the scope of their design, that made them unpredictable. A.I. were already heavily regulated because of their inherent danger, and that is A.I. that you intentionally create. The geth were an accident. Worse yet the quarians weren't talking about just one rogue A.I. here; they were faced with millions of them. Constructs that the quarians knew via' virtue of their station in quarian society who could threaten the survival of the species. The geth were integrated into every facet of the quarian civilization. Military, labor, service, production, security, everything.

The proof that the quarian's fears were quite justified is in the fact that the geth won. Despite being struck first they rallied, organized, and defeated the quarians completely. 

A government cannot always base its decisions upon another entity's motives, sometimes the most rational thing they do is to base it on their capabilities. The capabilities of the geth demanded pro-active action to neutralize the threat before it became to big to manage. Sadly, it had already reached that point.

Killing a few sentient machines on the basis that they MIGHT become violent is not just. What the quarian government should have done was ask the geth what they wanted and negotiated, but we all know they didn't and paid for it. They did not go for the diplomatic option because the quarians considered geth beneath them or had incorrect assumptions about how they would behave, they were completely wrong.

You also say had the quarians gambled for peace and lost, there would be fewer of them than there are now. On what do you base this assumption? Because that is quite a large assumption you're making in order to justify your position, which shows how flimsy it is. You do this a lot. You're also resorting to name calling now it seems.

And I also disagree that the geth winning justified all of the quarian's fears. They feared the geth would turn on them on their own, which they didn't. The preemptive attack of the quarians forced the geth to defend themselves if they wanted to continue existing. And even now 300 years they still do not wish violence upon the quarians and even take care of the homeworld in their absence.

What it all boils down to is fear, that organic instinct to fear the unknown. The when the geth became sentient they became a big unknown in the eyes of the quarians, so instead of attempting to communicate and start deintegrating the geth from quarian society, they attacked.

Oh, and maybe the council races should just neutralize the Systems Alliance before it becomes too big to manage. Oh wait we've already reached that point. =P

Shandepared wrote...

Let me try an analogy, maybe it penetrate that thick lump of stupid and fat you consider a brain.

Why don't you calm down and stop calling people names. If you can't take the heat, get out of the oven.

Shandepared wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Of course. The matter is simple. Quarians pushed and the geth pushed back. 

So if the quarians push back in turn how does that make them the badguys exactly, most especially when they are descendents of the survivors of a genocide on the scale of which no human has ever witnessed?

The Morning War ended a long time ago. For the quarians to push now means they would be starting a new war, not responding to a push from the geth who don't want to fight.

Bookman230 wrote...

Shandepard, I just want to say I respect you for your opinions. you take the less PR friendly route, the less accepted views. You side with the quarians, you side with Cerberus(from what I've seen), and you don't give an inch. though I disagree with you, you are a great debater, if a bit vicious at times.

"Let me try an analogy, maybe it penetrate that thick lump of stupid and fat you consider a brain."

You consider this an aspect of a great debater, worthy of respect?

I disagree.

Edit: Also that grizzly bear analogy is inappropriate. Bears are animals that have evolved over millions of years with instincts and attributes designed to preserve their existence and their of their offspring. Geth are ruled by logic and reason, not instinct and emotion.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 03 juin 2010 - 12:02 .

[megatron999]

I'm just reading up about the GEth on Mass Effect Wikki and it says:



"An individual geth has only a basic intelligence on par with animal instincts, but in groups they can reason, analyze situations, and use tactics as well as any of the organic races"



Geth are like wolves not "bears" simply defending themselves but in groups can become more intelligenct so they are hive-mind based.



The reason the Quarrians tried to shutdown the Geth was because they became paranoid and fearful that they would revolt. At the time the Quarrians did not consider the Geth to be living and rightly so they were simply machines which obviously had poor programming.



It is also know illegal to create AI for that basic reason. Honestly the Quarrians were stupid to created the Geth when there own people were far more efficient.



I will never understand why people want to use robots to fight etc.. They never will work properly and if they did would probably kill us all.

[Rykn]

Shandepared wrote...

A lot

Inverness Moon wrote...

A lot

Alot of people like to go on about who did this and that and a bunch of moral bull$h*t but no one likes to bring up the other flotilla. Ya know the one full of sentient starships waiting to destroy anything remotely sentient in the galaxy but nooooooo let's kill each other and make ourselves weak it's the "fun" thing. Banning together to defeat the greater threat? pfft who cares about that when we can satisfy stupid hundred year old grudges cause lets face it, species wide genocide is "fun" and let's not forget the swift annihalation that comes after because we were to busy having said "fun".
Yep good times are on the horizen I can just see it!

But I digress because I want to live thus won't try having said "fun" it interests me a little bit so I see nothing that will stop me from looking up video's of people who had "fun" on youtube! 

Modifié par Rykn, 03 juin 2010 - 12:59 .

[Teknor]

Shandepared wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Of course. The matter is simple. Quarians pushed and the geth pushed back. 

So if the quarians push back in turn how does that make them the badguys exactly, most especially when they are descendents of the survivors of a genocide on the scale of which no human has ever witnessed?

Quarians tried to commit genocide and they got genocidal response in return. A fair deal. Doesn't matter what the descendents feel now their predecessors shouldn't have gambled over the price they can't pay.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

 I understand the full Capabilities of the geth at the time. I just think acting on capabiltiies alone is fool-hardy and stupid.

Then you're an idiot with no understanding of the situation or what was at stake. You can't afford to never act on capabilities because you cannot always know intentions.

Like I said before. I  ==> UNDERSTAND   <== the situation fully well. Do I need neon lights so you may see that word?

I understand that the quarians MAY or MAY NOT be risking their lives on it. I could risk my life on the highway every day, an tractor trailer could slam into my mere 3 ton car and pummel it. Just becuase IT MAY happen does not nessaciate that it's GOING to happen.

Yellowstone park might super-volcano one day in the future, we are screwed as an speices. Apohis might hit us (Asteroid)... and we be screwed. Worse, it might hit the moon. All of these scenarios are LIFE threatening, however that doesn't mean I attack an race that is more numerous and could kick my ass just becuase they MIGHT stab me at some point.

Comprehendre?

And to be honest, your looking more like the idiot then I am.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Yes by Quarians actions. If I walk up and punch an much bigger guy in the face. Do you think he's going to punch me back? You betcha. Do you think he is within right to continue said fight? You betcha.

You keep missing the point. I'm going to have to conclude that is because you are stupid and not because I can't convey an idea.

Or my simple analogies apparently don't work in EPIC SCALE warfare. Of course they do. It's Medium sized guy, he's the quarians. He now has an very.... large person that works for him. Recently, he starts asking questions. Quarians don't like questions from their workers, they are da boss after all.

so you do

A) Stab/punch him as an way to fire him?

or

 answer said questions and talk to the very large person, get their opinon on the situation, and sort it out.

Not every situation needs an damn gun in the face to solve.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

And if they stopped working for me? I just
create some more constricted VI's to take their place and ask the geth
to either be an contributating member of society, or ask them to move to
an planet that is out of the way.

What if they refuse?

Why would they? But let's say they refuse. Then you talk to them some more and give more light on the situation. Not everything needs guns and C4 to solve ya know. Geth became sentient after all, I doubt they could have cared less other than making sure they had the link to the extranet on that planet. But let's play devil Advociate. I don't really know what would happen if they refused, but then, it's alot better than say, sending an pre-emptive strike with no talking at all.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 03 juin 2010 - 02:20 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

megatron999 wrote...
It is also know illegal to create AI for that basic reason. Honestly the Quarrians were stupid to created the Geth when there own people were far more efficient.

Actually they aren't. Mining for materials with low-immune system etc etc. Quarians aren't an hardy people in that sense. Relient upon machines was an ovous choice to overcome their weakness.

I will never understand why people want to use robots to fight etc.. They never will work properly and if they did would probably kill us all.

Becaue you don't lose an good qualified pilot or soldier that took years to train. Instead they pop up the display for another robot. Robots are the way of the future, in the Air, they will be mostly dominant, ground, they will probably be intergrated with current squads to augment them. I highly doubt we're removing the actual "soldier" from the field entirely as robots... just don't have that perspective humans do. Of course, most of those robots are directly controlled by humans, and not automated.

Rykn wrote...

Alot of people like to go on about who did
this and that and a bunch of moral bull$h*t but no one likes to bring up
the other flotilla. Ya know the one full of sentient starships waiting
to destroy anything remotely sentient in the galaxy but nooooooo let's
kill each other and make ourselves weak it's the "fun" thing. Banning
together to defeat the greater threat? pfft who cares about that when we
can satisfy stupid hundred year old grudges cause lets face it, species
wide genocide is "fun" and let's not forget the swift annihalation that
comes after because we were to busy having said "fun".
Yep good
times are on the horizen I can just see it! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

But
I digress because I want to live thus won't try having said "fun" it
interests me a little bit so I see nothing that will stop me from
looking up video's of people who had "fun" on youtube! 

You sir are win.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 03 juin 2010 - 02:28 .

[Wildecker]

The tragedy is that the Geth don't even want the Quarian homeworld. They want to be left alone, and if the Quarians could convince them of not planning to turn the Geth into their mindless servants again, they'd just pack and leave for good.

But of cause the Quarians will never believe this isn't just a big trap to kill them all as soon as the Flotilla is gathered in one place, and the Geth won't trust the words of one admiral out of five.

[scorptatious]

This thread is still going? NICE.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Shandepared wrote...

Not everything can be talked to death or reasoned with.

True. However, at the time, the geth had made exactly zero threatening moves beyond asking whether they have souls. 

In fact, the very fact that they asked their quarian overseers if they had souls (as opposed to, say, going all Skynet on the quarians) should suggest that they're willing to talk to and learn from the quarians. Is there any reason, from the quarian perspective, to believe that the geth are hostile? Thus far the only thing the geth have done is ask questions. 

Imagine your dog started asking you if he had a soul. Would you then call for the extermination of all dogs everywhere preemptively because they might be a threat? :\\

They couldn't afford to negotiate because they tried and it failed their position would be even worse.

Rational nations tend to negotiate even with their enemies if possible, because the effects of a war strain the nation in question. The Geth hadn't even displayed any hostility. Preemptive strikes only work when you have two things: A good chance of the strike crippling the enemy to prevent reprisal, and a good reason to believe the gains outweigh the costs.

The quarian attack had neither. You can't nuke the geth because they're in the quarian homes and settlements; you've got to go building to building clearing them. In that time, the geth network would naturally realize what's going on and fight back, unless you did it all at once, but that's almost totally impossible when dealing with organic soldiers at the scale of an entire society. Further, the costs of alienating the geth greatly outweigh the benefits of attacking them preemptively.

The geth already had their robo-claws deep in quarian society and particularly industry. Attacking them preemptively rather than at least trying to talk is the height of stupidity if only because you'd end up gutting your own industrial base in the process.

...Or getting forced off your homeworld for four hundred years, but that's a worst case scenario that I doubt the quarians even imagined.

By trying to negotiate they guaranteed an extreme out-come.

And by striking preemptively, they also guaranteed an extreme outcome. Namely, total war against the newly intelligent geth. The newly intelligent geth who made up a sizable percentage of the quarian labor force, and quite possibly a sizable percentage of the "quarian" military.

Either the game would remain non-violent and everyone would live in piece or they'd get stronger as more of them awoke and then when they attacked the quarians would get devestated even worse than if they'd struck first.

Or you'd buy more time to get as many of your civilians away as you can. The geth aren't all that likely to jump from "does this unit have a soul?" to "destroy all quarians!!!" for no reason. Keeping the geth talking keeps them distracted, while you work to get as many quarians away and safe as possible.

They could not afford to gamble on negotation and then be proven wrong. Gambling with that would have been incredibly irresponsible.

You attack a group that has displayed absolutely no threatening moves on the basis that they might become a threat, rather than opening a dialog with them and at least seeing what they want?

The only reason you defend that course of action is because hindsight has allowed you to reasonbly judge that it would work. The quarians alive at the time didn't have that luxury.

No. I agree with him. Ignoring all the meta data that shows the Geth were totally peaceful unless attacked, it's still stupid to preemptively attack them on purely rational grounds; namely, if you attack, you will alienate them and end up totally gutting your industrial base in the fighting. If you negotiate, you may discover they're dangerous and have to be put down, in which case your industrial base is still gutted at the end of it, even moreso. On the other hand, geth behavior at the time was completely nonhostile and there was a good reason to believe they were open to dialog because they were asking the quarians questions. The chances, then, of diplomacy were much higher and far less risky than you seem to think.

It's like the Council decision. People only stand buy it because meta-knowledge allows them to know that if they save the Council they will still stop Sovereign. However from Shepard's perspective when he makes this decision that is no guarantee. That's why it is irresponsible. He's gambling the survival of all sentient life in the galaxy for eons to come just for political convenience. It is indefensible.

From Shepard's perspective, the only thing he has to do to stop Soverign is to kill Saren and boot the reaper from the citadel computer with the direct access he's got. Then, the worst Sov can do is fly around like an angry mecha-squid and blast things. Sov can't open the relay remotely, because otherwise he'd have done it.

Ergo, saving the council - and thus earning humanity the goodwill of the entire galaxy and (at least in theory) convincing the council of the reaper threat - is a perfectly sane and rational decision. As we see in ME2, just stopping the reaper leaves the galaxy disunified and easy prey for the rest of the reapers. You need to keep the council alive to help unify the galaxy in preparation for the reapers.

No it isn't. Every day you waste talking and analyzing the geth the stronger they get.

Every day also gives you a chance to reestablish quarian industry and infrastructure elsewhere without geth, giving you more of a fighting chance against the Geth if it does come to war. Each day gives you the opportunity to produce more warships and weapons. Each day gives you the opportunity to ferry more civilians off your homeworld and to somewhere else.

While each day brings more awakened Geth, it also potentially means you're getting stronger as well.

Your ability to bargain with them gets more and more feeble and your chances in a war get worse and worse.

So, what, risking everything in a preemptive attack against a species that's not displayed any hostility is rational then? 

That's why a first strike is important; in the event of hostilities it is the only option that leaves you with the best chances for victory or will at least allow you to survive defeat.

First strikes are often not automatically sound strategy. Especially when avoiding them can allow you to avoid war completely.

Negotiating has risks - the geth might prove to be evil skynet AI that want to destroy all quarians. Every day the geth are getting stronger.

However, it also has extreme benefits. Namely, not having to fight a bloody war against the AI.

Cost of preemptive strike: Totally alienating the geth, gutting your industrial base by removing many of its workers, until you can train replacements from the population. (Less the factories damaged in the fighting; those are gone until you rebuild them.) Fighting an extremely bloody war of attrition that the AIs are much more suited to that sort of fight unless you can successfully defeat a large portion of the geth. Or at least destroy all geth held factories capable of producing more geth.

To make a preemptive strike work, you've got to eliminate enough geth that they can't retaliate, all in one blow. But given how widespread geth were in quarian society, that's pretty much impossible. Anything else lets the geth reproduce far, far faster than the quarians can counter and hence dooms the quarians to a war of attrition that favors the AI.

Cost of diplomacy: Geth get stronger. Not a problem if diplomacy works, and is a relatively moot point if it fails, because their AI nature means they're going to be able to outproduce you either way so the best thing you can do is buy time talking while you prepare the escape ships.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Killing a few sentient machines on the basis that they MIGHT become violent is not just.

It doesn't need to be just, it only needs to safeguard the survival of the quarian people. That is their government's job. I think that risking the future of their species would be a far greater betrayal than pre-emptive action against dangerous machines.
 

You keep saying the geth were dangerous, they would only be dangerous in the way that they integrated into quarian society so much. Other than that they are no more dangerous than any other species in the galaxy. Also with the logic you're using, if someone came up with a device that could kill every other sentient species in galaxy--synthetic or organic--with the press of the button, it should be done in the interests of safeguarding the future of humanity. Plenty of races are more dangerous than the geth are, and that would be the best way to keep humanity safe, no? Of course it is certainly not just.

Shandepared wrote...

 
What might the geth want, how might the quarians give it to them? Come on now, you don't get off that easy. If you want them to negotiate then tell me how you are going to have them negotiate and tell me what you'll have them do in the meantime. I mean will the quarians just sit their placidly talking while thousands and thousands of more geth achieve sentience every day? What if negotiations fail or are not possible? After all most people agree that the geth were not socially very sophisticated at this point so how do you know negotiations can achieve anything?

To answer your first question, those are the kind of things you find out by asking, which the quarians didn't do. We know now that the geth want to improve themselves by unification.

If the geth were sophisticated enough to kick the quarians off of their home planet I'd think they're sophisticated enough to be communicated with.

We know that the geth sentience was the byproduct of their networking ability. The number of geth that could be communicated with at a time would depend on how the networks work. Were the networks localized or could they use FTL or lightspeed communications across Rannoch to communicate with each other at once. The capability of the quarians to negotiate with the geth at the whole would depend on things like this. I imagine there would be a global communication network so that geth could be updated and improved at the same time, so I imagine this could be used for communication.

And of course there is always a chance negotiations could fail, and the quarians should prepare for that. However negotiations failing doesn't automatically mean war, it could just mean the geth leaving the planet rather than coexisting with the quarians.

As for what they would do in the meantime, I don't think that there would be any sudden and radical change in behavior for the geth when they gain sentience. Talking to the geth and finding out what they wanted could have prevented the whole ordeal. I imagine at this time they would want to be able to communicate with eachother if they aren't able to already. Allowing communication would both facilitate negotiations and make them smarter. There is no reason to assume that geth could become violent if they got smart, so I don't see a problem with that. I see no reason why they would change their physical routine, laboring for the quarians, if they're communicating and deciding what they want in their new life in the meantime.

Shandepared wrote...

The history of what happened. The only quarians who survived were those who managed to flee before the geth captured their space ports. If the geth had been given more time to organize (like say if the quarians first attempted negotiation instead of action) then those space ports might have been captured much earlier. Logically if the quarians attacked first, seizing the advantage, and still lost, then if they were to give up first-strike they'd lose even harder. That would mean fewere quarians today or even no quarians.

Considering how the geth are today. Had the quarians first attempted negotation they wouldn't be in the situation they are now.

But anyhow, we don't know the details about how the geth operated during the war or how coordinated they were. For all we know the geth could have given the quarians an escape route on purpose. The geth were smart enough to kick them off the planet, so if the geth had intended complete eradication they would have easily known to go for the escape routes first. I can't imagine them being the most heavily defended places. We don't know what the goals of the geth were during the war, but if it had been genocide they would have hunted down the quarians that escaped, or launched an attack on the migrant fleet once it formed, but they didn't.

But enough speculation, you say the geth could have captured the space ports sooner had they been given more time to get organized. What do you mean by geth "organizing" and how would this change their ability to capture the space ports?

And where did you hear the bit about the space ports from? Was it in one of the games or one of the books? I don't remember.

Shandepared wrote...

You're an idiot then. Clearly the geth utterly destroying the quarians in a war disproves that the quarians were afraid of what the geth could do. 
 

A lot of species can do a lot of things, but they won't unless you give them a reason to, same with the geth.

Shandepared wrote...

Curious then that they attacked the quarian research team on Haestrom.

Obviously those geth were either heretics or the quarians attacked them first. I don't remember the details of the mission. We don't know exactly where in the galaxy the heretics are, and I doubt they're all in that one space station from the game.

Shandepared wrote...

Which was the most sensible course of action.

Not at the time, and certainly not in hindsight.

Shandepared wrote...

They probably should have allowed the turians to stomp us. Oh well, that's their mistake and it cost them dearly in my playthrough.

You'll dream.

Shandepared wrote...

If the geth don't want to fight they can leave. They have no reason to continue holding onto the quarian worlds, they never have.

They have some reason since they decided to repair the damage in the absence of their creators.

Shandepared wrote...

Logic and reason that the apparently does not rule out genocide against the quarian species.

If the geth wanted genocide the migrant fleet wouldn't be around today.