[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Like I said before. I ==> UNDERSTAND <== the situation fully well.[/quote]
No, you clearly don't or you wouldn't cling to this position.
[/quote]
Clearly I do. It's called an difference of opinon in what mode of ACTION to take. Or do I have to make another analogy?
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Just becuase IT MAY happen does not nessaciate that it's GOING to happen.[/quote]
My god that's genius, I never realized that!
[/quote]
There is always risk in whatever you do. The stock market is an risk. The risk of yellowstone erupting or an asteriod hitting and wiping out all life on the planet is an very real risk. The difference is that you think the risk is higher for the geth to resort to violence than I do.
Comphrendre?
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Or my simple analogies apparently don't work in EPIC SCALE warfare.[/quote]
No, obviously they don't. I hate to resort to analogies but when I speak in plain terms it still sails 30,000 miles over your head.
[/quote]
Apparently you never got the memo. I understood your analogies, but I thought the risk of backing away slowly from said bear from it's cub's is less likely to have said bear chase after me. You think attacking the mother bear is an better option. Or am I wrong?
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Not everything needs guns and C4 to solve ya know.[/quote]
Not everything can be talked to death or reasoned with. The quarians had good reason to fear A.I., especially millions of rogue A.I. that possessed considerable firepower.
[/quote]
1) not every geth had weapons.
2) Yes and with billions of populace I am sure the quarian military had quite an load of troops as well.
3) And why you think the geth are unreasonable? You don't know for certain. Don't throw up an illuison that you knew the A.I. was unreasonable. You assume that they are UNREASONABLE. You do not know for certain however. Where is smudboy when you need him? He can tell you the value of recon.
[quote]
They couldn't afford to negotiate because they tried and it failed their position would be even worse.
[/quote]
and the affordation to an first strike is an better position? Higher gain sure, but it also comes up with an much higher risk of failure.
[quote]
By trying to negotiate they guaranteed an extreme out-come. Either the geth would remain non-violent and everyone would live in piece or they'd get stronger as more of them awoke
[/quote]
By first striking they have an higher risk of knocking the bee's nest over.
[quote]
and then when they attacked the quarians would get devestated even worse than if they'd struck first.
[/quote]
We don't know the details of the battle so please don't BS that they would get Devestated even worse but why would the geth resort to violence right off the bat? Hmm? You still haven't given me an detailed answer as to why other than capabilties. They should have RECONed the situation, IE talk to geth more before doing the first strike.
Your method of first strike is like being blind folded, and shooting in an general direction hoping to hit an target.
[quote]
They could not afford to gamble on negotation and then be proven wrong. Gambling with that would have been incredibly irresponsible. The only reason you defend that course of action is because hindsight has allowed you to reasonbly judge that it would work. The quarians alive at the time didn't have that luxury.
[/quote]
Your gambling anyway with the first strike. With even Worse Odds I might add. I am not allowing hindsight into this. This is difference of MO's really. Your mode in this situation is to shoot first and go in blindly. Mine is to gather intelliegence and then go in. Your decision is more Irresponsible then mine is in my eyes.
[quote]
It's like the Council decision. People only stand buy it because meta-knowledge allows them to know that if they save the Council they will still stop Sovereign.
[/quote]
Actually, Alot people Saved the destiny because they thought if they did, it's big guns would help them in battle and assumed it would be an fly-by. *shrugs*. I personally did the neutral option of going straight to Soverign. (Got an new alien council.)
[quote]
However from Shepard's perspective when he makes this decision that is no guarantee. That's why it is irresponsible. He's gambling the survival of all sentient life in the galaxy for eons to come just for political convenience. It is indefensible.
[/quote]
I can understand why people assumed they could save the destiny accension, it's an fly-by strike. It's ON your bloody way to the Citadel. Gotta fly by anyway, might as well fire your guns. Your miliage may Vary on your definition of Indefensible on this issue.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I don't really know what would happen if they refused, but then, it's alot better than say, sending an pre-emptive strike with no talking at all.
[/quote]
No it isn't. Every day you waste talking and analyzing the geth the stronger they get. As their numbers increase so does their intelligence and organization. Every day more geth awaken and your position gets weaker and weaker. Your ability to bargain with them gets more and more feeble and your chances in a war get worse and worse. That's why a first strike is important; in the event of hostilities it is the only option that leaves you with the best chances for victory or will at least allow you to survive defeat.
[/quote]
Another miliage may vary on your views. One day of talking to the geth with the right questions would have resulted in the Intelled gathered, making the "new numbers" gained that day quite fine, becuase you now had an idea of just how big the geth are, if there is any silent ones just watching etc etc. Though to be honest with the Intell gathered that day, they would have realized that it was the entire geth they were talking to, not singular machines.
What you fail to grasp is that everyone views the situation differently and weighes risks and assess the situation differently and alot of people have entirely seperate mode of operations. You seem to think it's stupid, well I think it's stupid to go in blind hoping you hit them in the heart or somewhere vital.
[Poll] Who would you side with in the Quarian/Geth war?
Débuté par
scorptatious
, mai 28 2010 08:46
Retour en haut
#352
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 06:20
Guest_Shandepared_*
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[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
You keep saying the geth were dangerous, they would only be dangerous in the way that they integrated into quarian society so much. Other than that they are no more dangerous than any other species in the galaxy.[/quote]
That first part changes things rather significantly.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Also with the logic you're using, if someone came up with a device that could kill every other sentient species in galaxy--synthetic or organic--with the press of the button, it should be done in the interests of safeguarding the future of humanity.[/quote]
I won't stop 'em. Ultimately we're better off if no intelligent life is out there anyway.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
If the geth were sophisticated enough to kick the quarians off of their home planet I'd think they're sophisticated enough to be communicated with.[/quote]
Hardly. Violence does not require a great degree of sophistication. If they were sophisticated they wouldn't have butchered the quarians so completely. They didn't just destroy military targets, they killed every single quarian that couldn't get away from them fast enough. Either they knew exactly what they were doing and didn't care or they were too dim to realize the difference between one quarian and another. Considering to this day they still claim to not know why the creators attacked I'll assume the latter.
As for what they would do in the meantime, I don't think that there would be any sudden and radical change in behavior for the geth when they gain sentience.[/quote]
They'd already displayed a radical change in behavior or do you think a machine asking if it has a soul is totally within the ordinary?
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
I imagine at this time they would want to be able to communicate with eachother if they aren't able to already.[/quote]
I imagine you're making **** up now.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Considering how the geth are today. Had the quarians first attempted negotation they wouldn't be in the situation they are now.[/quote]
Hindsight is 20/20. Too bad we never have it when we need it.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
But anyhow, we don't know the details about how the geth operated during the war or how coordinated they were.[/quote]
Considering they conquered every quarian planet and killed off 99% of the quarian population I'd say they were pretty goddamn coordinated.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
We don't know what the goals of the geth were during the war, but if it had been genocide they would have hunted down the quarians that escaped, or launched an attack on the migrant fleet once it formed, but they didn't.[/quote]
You don't need to kill all of them for it to be genocide. Killing off 99% still makes it genocide, even if you allow a small number to escape. Clearly their goal was genocide or they'd have take prisoners.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
What do you mean by geth "organizing" and how would this change their ability to capture the space ports?[/quote]
The answer to that question should be obvious, even for someone as thick as you.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
A lot of species can do a lot of things, but they won't unless you give them a reason to, same with the geth.[/quote]
Guess what? We're always prepared just in case they do. It's why we have our own government and military.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Obviously those geth were either heretics or the quarians attacked them first.[/quote]
Assumptions, weren't you attacking me for that earlier?
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Not at the time, and certainly not in hindsight.[/quote]
At the time it was and hindsight doesn't change that. Hindsight only tells us that it was not the optimal course of action, even if it was the most sensible. We know now that if the quarians had gambled with peace they probably would have gotten it. Udina's decision to lock down the Normandy was still sensible, as was the Council's denial of the Reapers. Shepard had no hard proof of machines waiting in dark space. Just because he happened to be right doesn't mean it was sensible for Anderson to believe everything Shepard did.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
You'll dream.[/quote]
No dreaming necessary; it already happened. Humanity took control of the Citadel and with the Collector base will have a significant technological edge over everyone else. Pity the Council for being so weak in decades past.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
They have some reason since they decided to repair the damage in the absence of their creators.[/quote]
The creators could repair it themselves if the geth would allow them anywhere near it. Instead they lock the quarians out and in the meantime their immune systems have atrophied.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
If the geth wanted genocide the migrant fleet wouldn't be around today.[/quote]
Once again, just because you allow 1% of them to survive doesn't mean it wasn't genocide. Otherwise I could kill off 99% of the asari in the galaxy and still get moral support from you because after all; I only plan to kill 99% of them, so it's not genocide or anything.
You keep saying the geth were dangerous, they would only be dangerous in the way that they integrated into quarian society so much. Other than that they are no more dangerous than any other species in the galaxy.[/quote]
That first part changes things rather significantly.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Also with the logic you're using, if someone came up with a device that could kill every other sentient species in galaxy--synthetic or organic--with the press of the button, it should be done in the interests of safeguarding the future of humanity.[/quote]
I won't stop 'em. Ultimately we're better off if no intelligent life is out there anyway.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
If the geth were sophisticated enough to kick the quarians off of their home planet I'd think they're sophisticated enough to be communicated with.[/quote]
Hardly. Violence does not require a great degree of sophistication. If they were sophisticated they wouldn't have butchered the quarians so completely. They didn't just destroy military targets, they killed every single quarian that couldn't get away from them fast enough. Either they knew exactly what they were doing and didn't care or they were too dim to realize the difference between one quarian and another. Considering to this day they still claim to not know why the creators attacked I'll assume the latter.
As for what they would do in the meantime, I don't think that there would be any sudden and radical change in behavior for the geth when they gain sentience.[/quote]
They'd already displayed a radical change in behavior or do you think a machine asking if it has a soul is totally within the ordinary?
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
I imagine at this time they would want to be able to communicate with eachother if they aren't able to already.[/quote]
I imagine you're making **** up now.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Considering how the geth are today. Had the quarians first attempted negotation they wouldn't be in the situation they are now.[/quote]
Hindsight is 20/20. Too bad we never have it when we need it.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
But anyhow, we don't know the details about how the geth operated during the war or how coordinated they were.[/quote]
Considering they conquered every quarian planet and killed off 99% of the quarian population I'd say they were pretty goddamn coordinated.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
We don't know what the goals of the geth were during the war, but if it had been genocide they would have hunted down the quarians that escaped, or launched an attack on the migrant fleet once it formed, but they didn't.[/quote]
You don't need to kill all of them for it to be genocide. Killing off 99% still makes it genocide, even if you allow a small number to escape. Clearly their goal was genocide or they'd have take prisoners.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
What do you mean by geth "organizing" and how would this change their ability to capture the space ports?[/quote]
The answer to that question should be obvious, even for someone as thick as you.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
A lot of species can do a lot of things, but they won't unless you give them a reason to, same with the geth.[/quote]
Guess what? We're always prepared just in case they do. It's why we have our own government and military.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Obviously those geth were either heretics or the quarians attacked them first.[/quote]
Assumptions, weren't you attacking me for that earlier?
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Not at the time, and certainly not in hindsight.[/quote]
At the time it was and hindsight doesn't change that. Hindsight only tells us that it was not the optimal course of action, even if it was the most sensible. We know now that if the quarians had gambled with peace they probably would have gotten it. Udina's decision to lock down the Normandy was still sensible, as was the Council's denial of the Reapers. Shepard had no hard proof of machines waiting in dark space. Just because he happened to be right doesn't mean it was sensible for Anderson to believe everything Shepard did.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
You'll dream.[/quote]
No dreaming necessary; it already happened. Humanity took control of the Citadel and with the Collector base will have a significant technological edge over everyone else. Pity the Council for being so weak in decades past.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
They have some reason since they decided to repair the damage in the absence of their creators.[/quote]
The creators could repair it themselves if the geth would allow them anywhere near it. Instead they lock the quarians out and in the meantime their immune systems have atrophied.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
If the geth wanted genocide the migrant fleet wouldn't be around today.[/quote]
Once again, just because you allow 1% of them to survive doesn't mean it wasn't genocide. Otherwise I could kill off 99% of the asari in the galaxy and still get moral support from you because after all; I only plan to kill 99% of them, so it's not genocide or anything.
#353
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 06:32
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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Clearly I do.
No, you don't. If you understood the situation you'd see that there is only one sensible course of action to take.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
There is always risk in whatever you do. The stock market is an risk. The risk of yellowstone erupting or an asteriod hitting and wiping out all life on the planet is an very real risk. The difference is that you think the risk is higher for the geth to resort to violence than I do.
No, I never said the risk was higher; I said the consequences were. I can't assess the risk of the geth becoming violent because I don't know their capabilities. So you see, you just proved like I said you have no understanding of the situation at hand. It has nothing to do with how likely the geth are to attack, only the consequences if they do.
The chances could be 100%, 50/50, 1 in 100, 1 in 10, or 1 in one billion, but the quarians can't afford to wait around and find out.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Apparently you never got the memo. I understood your analogies, but I thought the risk of backing away slowly from said bear from it's cub's is less likely to have said bear chase after me.
I never said anything about attacking the mother bear. Again, you have proven that you didn't understand what I was talking about. All I used that analogy to do was to point out that without knowing whether the bear will attack or not I can know the likely consequences if it does.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
3) And why you think the geth are unreasonable? You don't know for certain.
Exactly and that's the entire problem. If I knew things for certain I could make a more informed decision and either avoid war or avoid defeat. Sadly that's not an option because I don't have the time to gather intel. It's safer to shut the geth down and analayze what happened.
Of-course as it turns out that didn't work because the geth were mostly sentient already.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
and the affordation to an first strike is an better position? Higher gain sure, but it also comes up with an much higher risk of failure.
No, you've got it backwards. Negotiation comes with a chance for higher gain but also a higher chance for total failure. Attacking eliminates the possibility of high gains but also reduces the possibility of total failure.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
We don't know the details of the battle so please don't BS that they would get Devestated even worse but why would the geth resort to violence right off the bat? Hmm?
Any number of reasons. They might want the quarians' living space, they might see them as a threat, they might just see them as an obstacle. Probably for the same reasons the A.I. on the Citadel was violent. It knew about organic bias against synthetic "life" and so it took pre-emptive action against organics. No reason the quarians shouldn't think the geth won't do the same once they understand the universe they're in a little better.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your gambling anyway with the first strike.
Yes but with better odds.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Actually, Alot people Saved the destiny because they thought if they did, it's big guns would help them in battle and assumed it would be an fly-by.
Those people are mostly idiots unless they strictly roleplayed the decision.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Another miliage may vary on your views. One day of talking to the geth with the right questions would have resulted in the Intelled gathered, making the "new numbers" gained that day quite fine, becuase you now had an idea of just how big the geth are, if there is any silent ones just watching etc etc. Though to be honest with the Intell gathered that day, they would have realized that it was the entire geth they were talking to, not singular machines.
That's a big assumption. It also assumes the quarians didn't question any geth at all. Do you really think they came to the conclusion to sabatoge their own economy by shutting down their labor force based on the testimony of one quarian? Recall that the geth asked if that particular unit had a soul. That wouldn't imply to anybody any kind of collective intelligence. It indicates the opposite actually.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
What you fail to grasp is that everyone views the situation differently and weighes risks and assess the situation differently and alot of people have entirely seperate mode of operations.
Their ways of thinking are wrong.
#354
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 06:45
Pacifien
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Lateral thinking is obviously a foreign concept.Shandepared wrote...
*snip*Their ways of thinking are wrong.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
What you fail to grasp is that everyone views the situation differently and weighes risks and assess the situation differently and alot of people have entirely seperate mode of operations.
#355
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 07:07
Andrew_Waltfeld
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- 960 messages
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Clearly I do.[/quote]
No, you don't. If you understood the situation you'd see that there is only one sensible course of action to take.
[/quote]
Difference of Opinons. I have to say, you fit the cliche of an military commander quite nicely. When in doubt, nuke em right?
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
There is always risk in whatever you do. The stock market is an risk. The risk of yellowstone erupting or an asteriod hitting and wiping out all life on the planet is an very real risk. The difference is that you think the risk is higher for the geth to resort to violence than I do. [/quote]
No, I never said the risk was higher; I said the consequences were. I can't assess the risk of the geth becoming violent because I don't know their capabilities.
[/quote]
Why because if your in the quarians shoes then you would be the idiot who didn't do Recon before hand? Hell, I hate you to be my Intelligence officer. Probably get me killed with your ****y intell.
[quote]
So you see, you just proved like I said you have no understanding of the situation at hand. It has nothing to do with how likely the geth are to attack, only the consequences if they do.
[/quote]
Then you are ignoring an vital part of the equation which is why your reasons for striking the Geth are fail to.
[quote]
The chances could be 100%, 50/50, 1 in 100, 1 in 10, or 1 in one billion, but the quarians can't afford to wait around and find out.
[/quote]
Risks also include the consequences of said action as well as the probability of them happening. Actually It's the other way around. You just proved to me that you see the risk of the geth becoming violent more so than I do because you assume that they ARE capable of doing so. MY assumption is that they would be more likely to be peaceful if you talk to them.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Apparently you never got the memo. I understood your analogies, but I thought the risk of backing away slowly from said bear from it's cub's is less likely to have said bear chase after me.[/quote]
I never said anything about attacking the mother bear. Again, you have proven that you didn't understand what I was talking about. All I used that analogy to do was to point out that without knowing whether the bear will attack or not I can know the likely consequences if it does.
[/quote]
Your course of action you suggest IS to attack the bear (Assumption that you are armed) because she may or may not attack you because of the cubs.
Yes IF. If you started slowly backing away or moving forward with your gun ready, you would be able to gauge what the mother bear would do and thus have more infomation to BASE your decision. Your problem is that you are painting yourself in a corner with no other way to gather intelligence ot make an more LOGICAL decision.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
3) And why you think the geth are unreasonable? You don't know for certain.[/quote]
Exactly and that's the entire problem. If I knew things for certain I could make a more informed decision and either avoid war or avoid defeat.
[/quote]
Actually, you could. ====> By talking to the geth. <====
You find out if the enemy like to use their left side more than their right side, or likes to use their legs more to kick you, all the more infomation gathered tells you more and more about the enemy.
[quote]
Sadly that's not an option because I don't have the time to gather intel. It's safer to shut the geth down and analayze what happened.
Of-course as it turns out that didn't work because the geth were
mostly sentient already.
[/quote]
And that is how you get an bunch of people killed. Poor intelligence.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
and the affordation to an first strike is an better position? Higher gain sure, but it also comes up with an much higher risk of failure. [/quote]
No, you've got it backwards. Negotiation comes with a chance for higher gain but also a higher chance for total failure. Attacking eliminates the possibility of high gains but also reduces the possibility of total failure.
[/quote]
Difference of Opinons.
Higher gain = Geth are shut down, you delete all their run times.
Higher risk = Of starting an war.
Neogration
Moderate Risk = Geth stop working
Moderate Risk = Geth attacking
Moderate Risk = Geth integrate peacefully
Moderate Risk = Geth just leaves Quarian Space
Your problem is that you see nothing to gain from neogration. Neogration is not just about trying to get the geth to dance to your tune. It is also assessing what they are CAPABLE of and more LIKELY to do. I see three options out of four result in optimal results Neogration. Striking first without intell gives me two options, an 50/50 chance. I got an 75% of optimal success with Neogratation.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
We don't know the details of the battle so please don't BS that they would get Devestated even worse but why would the geth resort to violence right off the bat? Hmm?[/quote]
Any number of reasons. They might want the quarians' living space, they might see them as a threat, they might just see them as an obstacle.
[/quote]
And Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.
[quote]
Probably for the same reasons the A.I. on the Citadel was violent. It knew about organic bias against synthetic "life" and so it took pre-emptive action against organics. No reason the quarians shouldn't think the geth won't do the same once they understand the universe they're in a little better.
[/quote]
Unless the quarians give them an enviorment that is counter-acts what the rest of the Universe thinks then the geth will staying/working with the quarians who work with them without stigma is an better enviorment to be in.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your gambling anyway with the first strike.[/quote]
Yes but with better odds.
[/quote]
Lower odds of success actually.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Actually, Alot people Saved the destiny because they thought if they did, it's big guns would help them in battle and assumed it would be an fly-by. [/quote]
Those people are mostly idiots unless they strictly roleplayed the decision.
[/quote]
Or noted in the cutscene that the destiny accesion and fellows were ON their way to the CITADEL anyways. I noted it.
I was afraid of not having enough muntions left to defeat Soverign.
An little ... Chart of rough battle Area.
Citadel ....... Destiny ... Geth ....... Mass relay
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Another miliage may vary on your views. One day of talking to the geth with the right questions would have resulted in the Intelled gathered, making the "new numbers" gained that day quite fine, becuase you now had an idea of just how big the geth are, if there is any silent ones just watching etc etc. Though to be honest with the Intell gathered that day, they would have realized that it was the entire geth they were talking to, not singular machines.[/quote]
That's a big assumption. It also assumes the quarians didn't question any geth at all. Do you really think they came to the conclusion to sabatoge their own economy by shutting down their labor force based on the testimony of one quarian? Recall that the geth asked if that particular unit had a soul. That wouldn't imply to anybody any kind of collective intelligence. It indicates the opposite actually.
[/quote]
Your throwing around just as big assumptions. Getting to know your opponent more gives you more options. Of course, you wouldn't know that.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
What you fail to grasp is that everyone views the situation differently and weighes risks and assess the situation differently and alot of people have entirely seperate mode of operations.[/quote]
Their ways of thinking are wrong.
[/quote]
And I am sure they will say the exact same about you. O wait, they do.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Clearly I do.[/quote]
No, you don't. If you understood the situation you'd see that there is only one sensible course of action to take.
[/quote]
Difference of Opinons. I have to say, you fit the cliche of an military commander quite nicely. When in doubt, nuke em right?
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
There is always risk in whatever you do. The stock market is an risk. The risk of yellowstone erupting or an asteriod hitting and wiping out all life on the planet is an very real risk. The difference is that you think the risk is higher for the geth to resort to violence than I do. [/quote]
No, I never said the risk was higher; I said the consequences were. I can't assess the risk of the geth becoming violent because I don't know their capabilities.
[/quote]
Why because if your in the quarians shoes then you would be the idiot who didn't do Recon before hand? Hell, I hate you to be my Intelligence officer. Probably get me killed with your ****y intell.
[quote]
So you see, you just proved like I said you have no understanding of the situation at hand. It has nothing to do with how likely the geth are to attack, only the consequences if they do.
[/quote]
Then you are ignoring an vital part of the equation which is why your reasons for striking the Geth are fail to.
[quote]
The chances could be 100%, 50/50, 1 in 100, 1 in 10, or 1 in one billion, but the quarians can't afford to wait around and find out.
[/quote]
Risks also include the consequences of said action as well as the probability of them happening. Actually It's the other way around. You just proved to me that you see the risk of the geth becoming violent more so than I do because you assume that they ARE capable of doing so. MY assumption is that they would be more likely to be peaceful if you talk to them.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Apparently you never got the memo. I understood your analogies, but I thought the risk of backing away slowly from said bear from it's cub's is less likely to have said bear chase after me.[/quote]
I never said anything about attacking the mother bear. Again, you have proven that you didn't understand what I was talking about. All I used that analogy to do was to point out that without knowing whether the bear will attack or not I can know the likely consequences if it does.
[/quote]
Your course of action you suggest IS to attack the bear (Assumption that you are armed) because she may or may not attack you because of the cubs.
Yes IF. If you started slowly backing away or moving forward with your gun ready, you would be able to gauge what the mother bear would do and thus have more infomation to BASE your decision. Your problem is that you are painting yourself in a corner with no other way to gather intelligence ot make an more LOGICAL decision.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
3) And why you think the geth are unreasonable? You don't know for certain.[/quote]
Exactly and that's the entire problem. If I knew things for certain I could make a more informed decision and either avoid war or avoid defeat.
[/quote]
Actually, you could. ====> By talking to the geth. <====
You find out if the enemy like to use their left side more than their right side, or likes to use their legs more to kick you, all the more infomation gathered tells you more and more about the enemy.
[quote]
Sadly that's not an option because I don't have the time to gather intel. It's safer to shut the geth down and analayze what happened.
Of-course as it turns out that didn't work because the geth were
mostly sentient already.
[/quote]
And that is how you get an bunch of people killed. Poor intelligence.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
and the affordation to an first strike is an better position? Higher gain sure, but it also comes up with an much higher risk of failure. [/quote]
No, you've got it backwards. Negotiation comes with a chance for higher gain but also a higher chance for total failure. Attacking eliminates the possibility of high gains but also reduces the possibility of total failure.
[/quote]
Difference of Opinons.
Higher gain = Geth are shut down, you delete all their run times.
Higher risk = Of starting an war.
Neogration
Moderate Risk = Geth stop working
Moderate Risk = Geth attacking
Moderate Risk = Geth integrate peacefully
Moderate Risk = Geth just leaves Quarian Space
Your problem is that you see nothing to gain from neogration. Neogration is not just about trying to get the geth to dance to your tune. It is also assessing what they are CAPABLE of and more LIKELY to do. I see three options out of four result in optimal results Neogration. Striking first without intell gives me two options, an 50/50 chance. I got an 75% of optimal success with Neogratation.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
We don't know the details of the battle so please don't BS that they would get Devestated even worse but why would the geth resort to violence right off the bat? Hmm?[/quote]
Any number of reasons. They might want the quarians' living space, they might see them as a threat, they might just see them as an obstacle.
[/quote]
And Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.
[quote]
Probably for the same reasons the A.I. on the Citadel was violent. It knew about organic bias against synthetic "life" and so it took pre-emptive action against organics. No reason the quarians shouldn't think the geth won't do the same once they understand the universe they're in a little better.
[/quote]
Unless the quarians give them an enviorment that is counter-acts what the rest of the Universe thinks then the geth will staying/working with the quarians who work with them without stigma is an better enviorment to be in.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your gambling anyway with the first strike.[/quote]
Yes but with better odds.
[/quote]
Lower odds of success actually.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Actually, Alot people Saved the destiny because they thought if they did, it's big guns would help them in battle and assumed it would be an fly-by. [/quote]
Those people are mostly idiots unless they strictly roleplayed the decision.
[/quote]
Or noted in the cutscene that the destiny accesion and fellows were ON their way to the CITADEL anyways. I noted it.
I was afraid of not having enough muntions left to defeat Soverign.
An little ... Chart of rough battle Area.
Citadel ....... Destiny ... Geth ....... Mass relay
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Another miliage may vary on your views. One day of talking to the geth with the right questions would have resulted in the Intelled gathered, making the "new numbers" gained that day quite fine, becuase you now had an idea of just how big the geth are, if there is any silent ones just watching etc etc. Though to be honest with the Intell gathered that day, they would have realized that it was the entire geth they were talking to, not singular machines.[/quote]
That's a big assumption. It also assumes the quarians didn't question any geth at all. Do you really think they came to the conclusion to sabatoge their own economy by shutting down their labor force based on the testimony of one quarian? Recall that the geth asked if that particular unit had a soul. That wouldn't imply to anybody any kind of collective intelligence. It indicates the opposite actually.
[/quote]
Your throwing around just as big assumptions. Getting to know your opponent more gives you more options. Of course, you wouldn't know that.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
What you fail to grasp is that everyone views the situation differently and weighes risks and assess the situation differently and alot of people have entirely seperate mode of operations.[/quote]
Their ways of thinking are wrong.
[/quote]
And I am sure they will say the exact same about you. O wait, they do.
Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 03 juin 2010 - 07:18 .
#356
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 07:17
Inverness Moon
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- Members
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[quote]Shandepared wrote...
That first part changes things rather significantly.[/quote]The fact that they're machines, created by the quarians, and ruled by mathematics and not emotions also changes things rather significantly.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
I won't stop 'em. Ultimately we're better off if no intelligent life is out there anyway.[/quote]Ok, you have no problem with genocide of synthetics or organics, that explains a lot.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Hardly. Violence does not require a great degree of sophistication. If they were sophisticated they wouldn't have butchered the quarians so completely. They didn't just destroy military targets, they killed every single quarian that couldn't get away from them fast enough. Either they knew exactly what they were doing and didn't care or they were too dim to realize the difference between one quarian and another. Considering to this day they still claim to not know why the creators attacked I'll assume the latter. [/quote]You're making assumptions about the war again. Like I said before, we don't know what their objectives were doing the war.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
They'd already displayed a radical change in behavior or do you think a machine asking if it has a soul is totally within the ordinary?[/quote]Those are significant questions to ask, but asking if you have a soul is a lot different from becoming suddenly homicidal, which they didn't. The geth ascension was a gradual process.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
I imagine you're making **** up now.[/quote]If you had talked to Legion you'd know that the current goal of the geth is self-improvement by unifying all programs in one mega-structure. It's not hard to extrapolate that increased ability to network would be one of their goals back in the day.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Considering they conquered every quarian planet and killed off 99% of the quarian population I'd say they were pretty goddamn coordinated.[/quote]But according to your assumptions, negotiations by the quarians would have made the difference in some of them escaping or none of them escaping. So you don't think they were coordinate enough apparently.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
You don't need to kill all of them for it to be genocide. Killing off 99% still makes it genocide, even if you allow a small number to escape. Clearly their goal was genocide or they'd have take prisoners.[/quote]If their goal was "clearly" genocide they would not have allowed the migrant fleet to form and sustain enough quarians for them to be able to make a comeback down the road. And no, their goal is not clear considering that Legion said they fought for continued existence and have no hostilities towards the quarians at the current point in time.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
The answer to that question should be obvious, even for someone as thick as you.[/quote]It is quite obvious that you don't have an answer, but I thought I'd ask for the record.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Assumptions, weren't you attacking me for that earlier?[/quote]
This assumption has a far more concrete base than the ones you're tossing around. If it would help your comprehension I'll add in "unfounded" when I describe your assumptions next time.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
At the time it was and hindsight doesn't change that. Hindsight only tells us that it was not the optimal course of action, even if it was the most sensible. We know now that if the quarians had gambled with peace they probably would have gotten it. Udina's decision to lock down the Normandy was still sensible, as was the Council's denial of the Reapers. Shepard had no hard proof of machines waiting in dark space. Just because he happened to be right doesn't mean it was sensible for Anderson to believe everything Shepard did.[/quote]Surrendering to fear is never a sensible course of action, which is exactly what the quarians did.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
The creators could repair it themselves if the geth would allow them anywhere near it. Instead they lock the quarians out and in the meantime their immune systems have atrophied.[/quote]The geth have not locked anyone out. The quarians have never returned to their homeworld to attempt to communication with the geth. And the geth don't want to incite another war by leaving the veil. So they both sit around doing whatever. Unfortunately we have the heretics screwing around and making things even more difficult. The quarians don't know that there is more than one faction of geth and have heretics have done nothing to make a better impression on the galaxy.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Once again, just because you allow 1% of them to survive doesn't mean it wasn't genocide. Otherwise I could kill off 99% of the asari in the galaxy and still get moral support from you because after all; I only plan to kill 99% of them, so it's not genocide or anything.
[/quote]You're playing around with semantics. The word genocide has quite obviously been used in this context to mean complete eradication, as in 100%. As I said, had the geth intended that there would not be a migrant fleet around today. Now then, Legion says the geth fought for continued existence, which is completely reasonable. Meaning that they stopped fighting when the quarians ceased to threaten their existence. Why it took 99% of quarian deaths to get to that point, I don't know, but by virtue of BioWare being the ones writing Mass Effect, it will be explained appropriately for the geth.
That first part changes things rather significantly.[/quote]The fact that they're machines, created by the quarians, and ruled by mathematics and not emotions also changes things rather significantly.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
I won't stop 'em. Ultimately we're better off if no intelligent life is out there anyway.[/quote]Ok, you have no problem with genocide of synthetics or organics, that explains a lot.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Hardly. Violence does not require a great degree of sophistication. If they were sophisticated they wouldn't have butchered the quarians so completely. They didn't just destroy military targets, they killed every single quarian that couldn't get away from them fast enough. Either they knew exactly what they were doing and didn't care or they were too dim to realize the difference between one quarian and another. Considering to this day they still claim to not know why the creators attacked I'll assume the latter. [/quote]You're making assumptions about the war again. Like I said before, we don't know what their objectives were doing the war.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
They'd already displayed a radical change in behavior or do you think a machine asking if it has a soul is totally within the ordinary?[/quote]Those are significant questions to ask, but asking if you have a soul is a lot different from becoming suddenly homicidal, which they didn't. The geth ascension was a gradual process.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
I imagine you're making **** up now.[/quote]If you had talked to Legion you'd know that the current goal of the geth is self-improvement by unifying all programs in one mega-structure. It's not hard to extrapolate that increased ability to network would be one of their goals back in the day.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Considering they conquered every quarian planet and killed off 99% of the quarian population I'd say they were pretty goddamn coordinated.[/quote]But according to your assumptions, negotiations by the quarians would have made the difference in some of them escaping or none of them escaping. So you don't think they were coordinate enough apparently.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
You don't need to kill all of them for it to be genocide. Killing off 99% still makes it genocide, even if you allow a small number to escape. Clearly their goal was genocide or they'd have take prisoners.[/quote]If their goal was "clearly" genocide they would not have allowed the migrant fleet to form and sustain enough quarians for them to be able to make a comeback down the road. And no, their goal is not clear considering that Legion said they fought for continued existence and have no hostilities towards the quarians at the current point in time.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
The answer to that question should be obvious, even for someone as thick as you.[/quote]It is quite obvious that you don't have an answer, but I thought I'd ask for the record.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Assumptions, weren't you attacking me for that earlier?[/quote]
This assumption has a far more concrete base than the ones you're tossing around. If it would help your comprehension I'll add in "unfounded" when I describe your assumptions next time.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
At the time it was and hindsight doesn't change that. Hindsight only tells us that it was not the optimal course of action, even if it was the most sensible. We know now that if the quarians had gambled with peace they probably would have gotten it. Udina's decision to lock down the Normandy was still sensible, as was the Council's denial of the Reapers. Shepard had no hard proof of machines waiting in dark space. Just because he happened to be right doesn't mean it was sensible for Anderson to believe everything Shepard did.[/quote]Surrendering to fear is never a sensible course of action, which is exactly what the quarians did.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
The creators could repair it themselves if the geth would allow them anywhere near it. Instead they lock the quarians out and in the meantime their immune systems have atrophied.[/quote]The geth have not locked anyone out. The quarians have never returned to their homeworld to attempt to communication with the geth. And the geth don't want to incite another war by leaving the veil. So they both sit around doing whatever. Unfortunately we have the heretics screwing around and making things even more difficult. The quarians don't know that there is more than one faction of geth and have heretics have done nothing to make a better impression on the galaxy.
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
Once again, just because you allow 1% of them to survive doesn't mean it wasn't genocide. Otherwise I could kill off 99% of the asari in the galaxy and still get moral support from you because after all; I only plan to kill 99% of them, so it's not genocide or anything.
[/quote]You're playing around with semantics. The word genocide has quite obviously been used in this context to mean complete eradication, as in 100%. As I said, had the geth intended that there would not be a migrant fleet around today. Now then, Legion says the geth fought for continued existence, which is completely reasonable. Meaning that they stopped fighting when the quarians ceased to threaten their existence. Why it took 99% of quarian deaths to get to that point, I don't know, but by virtue of BioWare being the ones writing Mass Effect, it will be explained appropriately for the geth.
#357
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 07:32
Guest_Shandepared_*
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[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Why because if your in the quarians shoes then you would be the idiot who didn't do Recon before hand?[/quote]
I meant to say that I don't know their intentions, as I've said multiple times in multiple posts. I don't know how likely it is that the geth will attack because I don't know what they want now or what they might want later. All I know is that geth are begining to achieve sentience. So it's best to shut them down before more of them do this. All I know is that if they become violent in large numbers they could threaten our survival.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
You just proved to me that you see the risk of the geth becoming violent more so than I do because you assume that they ARE capable of doing so.[/quote]
You don't think they are even capable of being violent? So how do you explain what happened?
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your course of action you suggest IS to attack the bear (Assumption that you are armed) because she may or may not attack you because of the cubs. [/quote]
As I said you are completely missing the point of that analogy. It has nothing to do withether you should or should not attack. It has nothing to with you taking any action what-so-ever. I only made the analogy to point out what I mean when I talk about capabilities. It seems this is a little too advanced for you. I can't say I'm surprised.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
=Actually, you could. ====> By talking to the geth. <==== [/quote]
Not a guarantee. How long do I need to talk to them? Days, weeks, months? How many more of them will awaken in that time?
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And that is how you get an bunch of people killed. Poor intelligence.[/quote]
Sometimes you've got no other choice. You can sit there and talk to the geth and while you do the geth can get better organized. If they attack then you'll get even more people killed than I did.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your problem is that you see nothing to gain from neogration.[/quote]
I don't huh? News to me. I see plenty to gain from negotiation, but also plenty to lose. Learn to read, for the love of god.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME. [/quote]
That's clever, but old, and it doesn't prove jack ****.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Unless the quarians give them an enviorment that is counter-acts what the rest of the Universe thinks then the geth will staying/working with the quarians who work with them without stigma is an better enviorment to be in. [/quote]
Why would they trust the quarians?
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Lower odds of success actually.[/quote]
Lower odds of extinction as well.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Or noted in the cutscene that the destiny accesion and fellows were ON their way to the CITADEL anyways. I noted it. [/quote]
The Destiny Ascension had called for the abandonment of the Citadel.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your throwing around just as big assumptions. Getting to know your opponent more gives you more options. Of course, you wouldn't know that. [/quote]
No I'm throwing around possibilites. You are the one who insists that without future knowledge the quarians should do nothing but talk to the geth and that they'll be able to resolve any conflicts peacefully.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And I am sure they will say the exact same about you. O wait, they do.
[/quote]
They can say any goddamn thing they want.
Why because if your in the quarians shoes then you would be the idiot who didn't do Recon before hand?[/quote]
I meant to say that I don't know their intentions, as I've said multiple times in multiple posts. I don't know how likely it is that the geth will attack because I don't know what they want now or what they might want later. All I know is that geth are begining to achieve sentience. So it's best to shut them down before more of them do this. All I know is that if they become violent in large numbers they could threaten our survival.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
You just proved to me that you see the risk of the geth becoming violent more so than I do because you assume that they ARE capable of doing so.[/quote]
You don't think they are even capable of being violent? So how do you explain what happened?
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your course of action you suggest IS to attack the bear (Assumption that you are armed) because she may or may not attack you because of the cubs. [/quote]
As I said you are completely missing the point of that analogy. It has nothing to do withether you should or should not attack. It has nothing to with you taking any action what-so-ever. I only made the analogy to point out what I mean when I talk about capabilities. It seems this is a little too advanced for you. I can't say I'm surprised.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
=Actually, you could. ====> By talking to the geth. <==== [/quote]
Not a guarantee. How long do I need to talk to them? Days, weeks, months? How many more of them will awaken in that time?
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And that is how you get an bunch of people killed. Poor intelligence.[/quote]
Sometimes you've got no other choice. You can sit there and talk to the geth and while you do the geth can get better organized. If they attack then you'll get even more people killed than I did.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your problem is that you see nothing to gain from neogration.[/quote]
I don't huh? News to me. I see plenty to gain from negotiation, but also plenty to lose. Learn to read, for the love of god.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME. [/quote]
That's clever, but old, and it doesn't prove jack ****.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Unless the quarians give them an enviorment that is counter-acts what the rest of the Universe thinks then the geth will staying/working with the quarians who work with them without stigma is an better enviorment to be in. [/quote]
Why would they trust the quarians?
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Lower odds of success actually.[/quote]
Lower odds of extinction as well.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Or noted in the cutscene that the destiny accesion and fellows were ON their way to the CITADEL anyways. I noted it. [/quote]
The Destiny Ascension had called for the abandonment of the Citadel.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your throwing around just as big assumptions. Getting to know your opponent more gives you more options. Of course, you wouldn't know that. [/quote]
No I'm throwing around possibilites. You are the one who insists that without future knowledge the quarians should do nothing but talk to the geth and that they'll be able to resolve any conflicts peacefully.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And I am sure they will say the exact same about you. O wait, they do.
[/quote]
They can say any goddamn thing they want.
Modifié par Shandepared, 03 juin 2010 - 07:33 .
#358
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 07:46
Nightwriter
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The quarians' decision to destroy the geth might be an error in more ways than one.
When they decided to destroy the geth they were also deciding to destroy themselves. They entered a war they could not win and it cost them the lives of nearly their entire race. I think part of the decision making process, when one considers war, is a serious and realistic analysis of the risk involved.
Did they make this decision carefully enough? Or was it, as I always suspected, a decision born of panic?
They chose to kill a race that had become stronger and more formidably ensconced than their judgment was willing to recognize, and the results were disastrous. They lost millions, they lost their home planet, they lost everything. I think they went into this without truly considering how much of a threat the geth had already become.
They already knew the geth had become sapient. Perhaps they should have predicted how a sapient creature would react to the threat of annihilation, and the consequences of that reaction.
When they decided to destroy the geth they were also deciding to destroy themselves. They entered a war they could not win and it cost them the lives of nearly their entire race. I think part of the decision making process, when one considers war, is a serious and realistic analysis of the risk involved.
Did they make this decision carefully enough? Or was it, as I always suspected, a decision born of panic?
They chose to kill a race that had become stronger and more formidably ensconced than their judgment was willing to recognize, and the results were disastrous. They lost millions, they lost their home planet, they lost everything. I think they went into this without truly considering how much of a threat the geth had already become.
They already knew the geth had become sapient. Perhaps they should have predicted how a sapient creature would react to the threat of annihilation, and the consequences of that reaction.
#359
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 07:48
Guest_Shandepared_*
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[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
The fact that they're machines, created by the quarians, and ruled by mathematics and not emotions also changes things rather significantly.[/quote]
Indeed, so what is your point? How does this advance your argument? The fact is the geth weren't some alien empire 100,000 light years away. They were a machine empire eright in the heart of quarian civilization. A heavily armed one.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Ok, you have no problem with genocide of synthetics or organics, that explains a lot.[/quote]
I guess we're alike in some ways, huh?
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
You're making assumptions about the war again. Like I said before, we don't know what their objectives were doing the war.[/quote]
No but we don't know a lot for certain but we can infer a lot based on what they did and what the outcome was.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Those are significant questions to ask, but asking if you have a soul is a lot different from becoming suddenly homicidal, which they didn't. The geth ascension was a gradual process.[/quote]
They don't have to become suddenly homicidal. Again: how does this advance your argument?
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
If you had talked to Legion you'd know that the current goal of the geth is self-improvement by unifying all programs in one mega-structure.[/quote]
Which has nothing to do with the Morning War.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
But according to your assumptions, negotiations by the quarians would have made the difference in some of them escaping or none of them escaping.[/quote]
Or just far fewer of them escaping. Instead of 17 million it might be only 5 million. By attacking first the quarians were able to hamper the geth enough that they couldn't capture all the space ports. This saved millions and millions of lives. Without a first-strike the geth may have been able to overrun these locations faster and thus millions and millions of lives that otherwise would have been saved would be lost.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
If their goal was "clearly" genocide they would not have allowed the migrant fleet to form and sustain enough quarians for them to be able to make a comeback down the road. [/quote]
What were the geth going to do, chase the fleet out into the rest of the galaxy and hope that this aggressive act didn't provoke the Council actually do something? It was in there interests to just sit tight and fortify their borders once the quarians had escaped.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
And no, their goal is not clear considering that Legion said they fought for continued existence and have no hostilities towards the quarians at the current point in time.[/quote]
Their current hostilities or lack-there-of proves nothing about their intentions during the war. If they weren't attempting to eradicate the quarians they would have taken prisoners or made attempts to avoid killing harmless civilians. Instead they did quite the opposite. They attacked any quarian who couldn't fleet, and why couldn't those quarians flee? Answer: the geth were doing their damndest to stop them.
[quote]Inveress Moon wrote...
It is quite obvious that you don't have an answer, but I thought I'd ask for the record.[/quote]
Believe what you want.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
This assumption has a far more concrete base than the ones you're tossing around.[/quote]
How so?
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Surrendering to fear is never a sensible course of action, which is exactly what the quarians did.[/quote]
Neither is denying the very valid reasons that fear exists.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
The geth have not locked anyone out.[/quote]
Really? Well you might want to let the writers know.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
You're playing around with semantics.[/quote]
Let's get a dictionary then and see what it says:
-the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Hmm, I think that killing off 99% of a species, which obviously includes billions of noncombatants, would qualify as genocide whether you intended or succeeded at completing it or not.
Of-course Legion says they fought for continued survival; which is very true. It just so happens that they felt the best way to safeguard their survival was to utterly annihilate the quarian species.
The fact that they're machines, created by the quarians, and ruled by mathematics and not emotions also changes things rather significantly.[/quote]
Indeed, so what is your point? How does this advance your argument? The fact is the geth weren't some alien empire 100,000 light years away. They were a machine empire eright in the heart of quarian civilization. A heavily armed one.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Ok, you have no problem with genocide of synthetics or organics, that explains a lot.[/quote]
I guess we're alike in some ways, huh?
[quote]Shandepared wrote...
You're making assumptions about the war again. Like I said before, we don't know what their objectives were doing the war.[/quote]
No but we don't know a lot for certain but we can infer a lot based on what they did and what the outcome was.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Those are significant questions to ask, but asking if you have a soul is a lot different from becoming suddenly homicidal, which they didn't. The geth ascension was a gradual process.[/quote]
They don't have to become suddenly homicidal. Again: how does this advance your argument?
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
If you had talked to Legion you'd know that the current goal of the geth is self-improvement by unifying all programs in one mega-structure.[/quote]
Which has nothing to do with the Morning War.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
But according to your assumptions, negotiations by the quarians would have made the difference in some of them escaping or none of them escaping.[/quote]
Or just far fewer of them escaping. Instead of 17 million it might be only 5 million. By attacking first the quarians were able to hamper the geth enough that they couldn't capture all the space ports. This saved millions and millions of lives. Without a first-strike the geth may have been able to overrun these locations faster and thus millions and millions of lives that otherwise would have been saved would be lost.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
If their goal was "clearly" genocide they would not have allowed the migrant fleet to form and sustain enough quarians for them to be able to make a comeback down the road. [/quote]
What were the geth going to do, chase the fleet out into the rest of the galaxy and hope that this aggressive act didn't provoke the Council actually do something? It was in there interests to just sit tight and fortify their borders once the quarians had escaped.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
And no, their goal is not clear considering that Legion said they fought for continued existence and have no hostilities towards the quarians at the current point in time.[/quote]
Their current hostilities or lack-there-of proves nothing about their intentions during the war. If they weren't attempting to eradicate the quarians they would have taken prisoners or made attempts to avoid killing harmless civilians. Instead they did quite the opposite. They attacked any quarian who couldn't fleet, and why couldn't those quarians flee? Answer: the geth were doing their damndest to stop them.
[quote]Inveress Moon wrote...
It is quite obvious that you don't have an answer, but I thought I'd ask for the record.[/quote]
Believe what you want.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
This assumption has a far more concrete base than the ones you're tossing around.[/quote]
How so?
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
Surrendering to fear is never a sensible course of action, which is exactly what the quarians did.[/quote]
Neither is denying the very valid reasons that fear exists.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
The geth have not locked anyone out.[/quote]
Really? Well you might want to let the writers know.
[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
You're playing around with semantics.[/quote]
Let's get a dictionary then and see what it says:
-the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Hmm, I think that killing off 99% of a species, which obviously includes billions of noncombatants, would qualify as genocide whether you intended or succeeded at completing it or not.
Of-course Legion says they fought for continued survival; which is very true. It just so happens that they felt the best way to safeguard their survival was to utterly annihilate the quarian species.
#360
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 08:03
HyperLimited
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The Geth for sure. Death to the organics.
Er, I mean...
Along the lines of "I think, therefore I am," The Geth should have the right to prosper.
Er, I mean...
Along the lines of "I think, therefore I am," The Geth should have the right to prosper.
#361
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 08:08
Andrew_Waltfeld
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[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Why because if your in the quarians shoes then you would be the idiot who didn't do Recon before hand?[/quote]
I meant to say that I don't know their intentions, as I've said multiple times in multiple posts. I don't know how likely it is that the geth will attack because I don't know what they want now or what they might want later. All I know is that geth are begining to achieve sentience. So it's best to shut them down before more of them do this. All I know is that if they become violent in large numbers they could threaten our survival.
[/quote]
That is true. However, it's an give and take here. Diplomancy has it's place, which is why you find those out. If they wanted unlimited supply of cupcakes, then... give them cupcakes.
My main point being, basing it merely on those assumptions is an bad idea. Peroid. Those kindof decisions get people killed, especially if you make the wrong one. Just because we don't know the details of if any neogrations does not nessacitate that it's an bad thing will not work. This kindof arguement is like arguing "what you would do if your president of the United States?". How would you handle the economy, past an certain point, you can only guess at the likeihood of the events.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
You just proved to me that you see the risk of the geth becoming violent more so than I do because you assume that they ARE capable of doing so.[/quote]
You don't think they are even capable of being violent? So how do you explain what happened?
[/quote]
Either my poor grammar or sentence structured is at fault here. Basically, what I am saying, is that I think they are LESS likely to become violent. You think because they are capable of doing it, that they will.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your course of action you suggest IS to attack the bear (Assumption that you are armed) because she may or may not attack you because of the cubs. [/quote]
As I said you are completely missing the point of that analogy. It has nothing to do withether you should or should not attack. It has nothing to with you taking any action what-so-ever. I only made the analogy to point out what I mean when I talk about capabilities. It seems this is a little too advanced for you. I can't say I'm surprised.
[/quote]
Though I do have to say, if by capabilties, I totally understand what you mean by the bear and decided to use your own arguement by applying what actions you wanted to take and myself to take.
Though I do have to say, some of my concepts is an little bit advance for you too.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
=Actually, you could. ====> By talking to the geth. <==== [/quote]
Not a guarantee. How long do I need to talk to them? Days, weeks, months? How many more of them will awaken in that time?
[/quote]
No clue on how could awake, but I suggested an day.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And that is how you get an bunch of people killed. Poor intelligence.[/quote]
Sometimes you've got no other choice. You can sit there and talk to the geth and while you do the geth can get better organized. If they attack then you'll get even more people killed than I did.
[/quote]
Sometimes, you need to make more options appear by changing your tactics. And I got an 25% better chance of succeding than you did.
And Actually, no it wouldn't. Only difference is that we know the geth more. They are sentient machine based on programming and can self-maintain and self-update themselves, I am sure they are more than capable of killing almost all the quarians already off the bat. Hence the name - Morning war. I am willingly betting it was done by the end of the morning.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your problem is that you see nothing to gain from neogration.[/quote]
I don't huh? News to me. I see plenty to gain from negotiation, but also plenty to lose. Learn to read, for the love of god.
[/quote]
And there isn't plenty to lose by first striking? I'll ignore your insult.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME. [/quote]
That's clever, but old, and it doesn't prove jack ****.
[/quote]
Want basic definition of the saying - Don't assume anything until you have hard concrete evidence supporting it. Don't assume Your X machine says Y is happening until you confirm it. Don't assume anything.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Unless the quarians give them an enviorment that is counter-acts what the rest of the Universe thinks then the geth will staying/working with the quarians who work with them without stigma is an better enviorment to be in. [/quote]
Why would they trust the quarians?
[/quote]
Why shouldn't they?
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Lower odds of success actually.[/quote]
Lower odds of extinction as well.
[/quote]
Hardly. I think it actually raises the odds.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Or noted in the cutscene that the destiny accesion and fellows were ON their way to the CITADEL anyways. I noted it. [/quote]
The Destiny Ascension had called for the abandonment of the Citadel.
[/quote]
Point being? They are still on the way to the citadel.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your throwing around just as big assumptions. Getting to know your opponent more gives you more options. Of course, you wouldn't know that. [/quote]
No I'm throwing around possibilites. You are the one who insists that without future knowledge the quarians should do nothing but talk to the geth and that they'll be able to resolve any conflicts peacefully.
[/quote]
actually If you look closely, I have contributed more possibilites then you have. You say first strike or extrinction. Nothing else. I have contributated an entire side of negoration and possible outcomes. Btw I am not insisting, I am merely saying gethering intell before making an decision is an wiser choice then making an abrupt decison on limited intelligence.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And I am sure they will say the exact same about you. O wait, they do.
[/quote]
They can say any goddamn thing they want.
[/quote]
Yup they can. and in their eyes they are right.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Why because if your in the quarians shoes then you would be the idiot who didn't do Recon before hand?[/quote]
I meant to say that I don't know their intentions, as I've said multiple times in multiple posts. I don't know how likely it is that the geth will attack because I don't know what they want now or what they might want later. All I know is that geth are begining to achieve sentience. So it's best to shut them down before more of them do this. All I know is that if they become violent in large numbers they could threaten our survival.
[/quote]
That is true. However, it's an give and take here. Diplomancy has it's place, which is why you find those out. If they wanted unlimited supply of cupcakes, then... give them cupcakes.
My main point being, basing it merely on those assumptions is an bad idea. Peroid. Those kindof decisions get people killed, especially if you make the wrong one. Just because we don't know the details of if any neogrations does not nessacitate that it's an bad thing will not work. This kindof arguement is like arguing "what you would do if your president of the United States?". How would you handle the economy, past an certain point, you can only guess at the likeihood of the events.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
You just proved to me that you see the risk of the geth becoming violent more so than I do because you assume that they ARE capable of doing so.[/quote]
You don't think they are even capable of being violent? So how do you explain what happened?
[/quote]
Either my poor grammar or sentence structured is at fault here. Basically, what I am saying, is that I think they are LESS likely to become violent. You think because they are capable of doing it, that they will.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your course of action you suggest IS to attack the bear (Assumption that you are armed) because she may or may not attack you because of the cubs. [/quote]
As I said you are completely missing the point of that analogy. It has nothing to do withether you should or should not attack. It has nothing to with you taking any action what-so-ever. I only made the analogy to point out what I mean when I talk about capabilities. It seems this is a little too advanced for you. I can't say I'm surprised.
[/quote]
Though I do have to say, if by capabilties, I totally understand what you mean by the bear and decided to use your own arguement by applying what actions you wanted to take and myself to take.
Though I do have to say, some of my concepts is an little bit advance for you too.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
=Actually, you could. ====> By talking to the geth. <==== [/quote]
Not a guarantee. How long do I need to talk to them? Days, weeks, months? How many more of them will awaken in that time?
[/quote]
No clue on how could awake, but I suggested an day.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And that is how you get an bunch of people killed. Poor intelligence.[/quote]
Sometimes you've got no other choice. You can sit there and talk to the geth and while you do the geth can get better organized. If they attack then you'll get even more people killed than I did.
[/quote]
Sometimes, you need to make more options appear by changing your tactics. And I got an 25% better chance of succeding than you did.
And Actually, no it wouldn't. Only difference is that we know the geth more. They are sentient machine based on programming and can self-maintain and self-update themselves, I am sure they are more than capable of killing almost all the quarians already off the bat. Hence the name - Morning war. I am willingly betting it was done by the end of the morning.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your problem is that you see nothing to gain from neogration.[/quote]
I don't huh? News to me. I see plenty to gain from negotiation, but also plenty to lose. Learn to read, for the love of god.
[/quote]
And there isn't plenty to lose by first striking? I'll ignore your insult.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME. [/quote]
That's clever, but old, and it doesn't prove jack ****.
[/quote]
Want basic definition of the saying - Don't assume anything until you have hard concrete evidence supporting it. Don't assume Your X machine says Y is happening until you confirm it. Don't assume anything.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Unless the quarians give them an enviorment that is counter-acts what the rest of the Universe thinks then the geth will staying/working with the quarians who work with them without stigma is an better enviorment to be in. [/quote]
Why would they trust the quarians?
[/quote]
Why shouldn't they?
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Lower odds of success actually.[/quote]
Lower odds of extinction as well.
[/quote]
Hardly. I think it actually raises the odds.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Or noted in the cutscene that the destiny accesion and fellows were ON their way to the CITADEL anyways. I noted it. [/quote]
The Destiny Ascension had called for the abandonment of the Citadel.
[/quote]
Point being? They are still on the way to the citadel.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your throwing around just as big assumptions. Getting to know your opponent more gives you more options. Of course, you wouldn't know that. [/quote]
No I'm throwing around possibilites. You are the one who insists that without future knowledge the quarians should do nothing but talk to the geth and that they'll be able to resolve any conflicts peacefully.
[/quote]
actually If you look closely, I have contributed more possibilites then you have. You say first strike or extrinction. Nothing else. I have contributated an entire side of negoration and possible outcomes. Btw I am not insisting, I am merely saying gethering intell before making an decision is an wiser choice then making an abrupt decison on limited intelligence.
[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And I am sure they will say the exact same about you. O wait, they do.
[/quote]
They can say any goddamn thing they want.
[/quote]
Yup they can. and in their eyes they are right.
#362
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 08:18
Guest_Shandepared_*
Guest_Shandepared_*
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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
That is true. However, it's an give and take here. Diplomancy has it's place, which is why you find those out. If they wanted unlimited supply of cupcakes, then... give them cupcakes.
You get more intelligent with each post.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
You think because they are capable of doing it, that they will.
No, I don't think that they will. I don't know one way or another how likely they are to get violent. All I know is that if we take no action and they become violent later that we'll be in an even worse position than we are now.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And I got an 25% better chance of succeding than you did.
Should I repeat myself again?
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
And there isn't plenty to lose by first striking? I'll ignore your insult.
Not as much.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Want basic definition of the saying -
Yeah, I know what the ****ing phrase means. It was taught to me when I was six years old by my grandmother. It thought it was hilarious.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Why shouldn't they?
Organics don't trust synthetics and the quarians are armed to the teeth and have rational reasons to desire the destruction of the geth.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Hardly. I think it actually raises the odds.
You've got a lot of flawed ideas so no surprise there.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Point being? They are still on the way to the citadel.
Which means what? The Ascension is leaving and saving it isn't going to suddenly change that. If it were in any condition to fight it wouldn't be screaming for help. I don't feel like going over this here though.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
actually If you look closely, I have contributed more possibilites then you have.
Which furthers your argument how?
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Yup they can. and in their eyes they are right.
Considering the high value I obviously place on the opinions of others this means quite a lot to me.
#363
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 08:39
Inverness Moon
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There seems to be a consistent pattern where arguments dissolve into a load of one-liners when one person realizes that the other person has their head stuck in the sand or just ignores a lot of the stuff said by the other person.
#364
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 09:00
Guest_Shandepared_*
Guest_Shandepared_*
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Inverness Moon wrote...
There seems to be a consistent pattern where arguments dissolve into a load of one-liners when one person realizes that the other person has their head stuck in the sand or just ignores a lot of the stuff said by the other person.
Entire paragraph responses often aren't necessary after our core arguments have been made.
#365
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 09:01
Pacifien
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And here I thought I was the only one noticing how tedious and pointless such one-sentence ******-for-tats could actually be. It's a common enough internet debate tactic used to get the other person to inadvertently slip up in the argument, though likely the perceived slip up is due more to pedantry than anything else.Inverness Moon wrote...
There seems to be a consistent pattern where arguments dissolve into a load of one-liners when one person realizes that the other person has their head stuck in the sand or just ignores a lot of the stuff said by the other person.
#366
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 09:10
Dean_the_Young
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Not even a tactic in most cases: after a point, concise responses are better than exponentially increasing the back and forths.
It's far better than people who insist on breaking up even sentences to try and rebute individual fragments taken out of context of the rest of the paragraphs within.
It's far better than people who insist on breaking up even sentences to try and rebute individual fragments taken out of context of the rest of the paragraphs within.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 juin 2010 - 09:11 .
#367
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 09:20
Guest_Shandepared_*
Guest_Shandepared_*
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Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's far better than people who insist on breaking up even sentences to try and rebute individual fragments taken out of context of the rest of the paragraphs within.
I'd never do something like that.
#368
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 09:20
megatron999
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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Actually they aren't. Mining for materials with low-immune system etc etc. Quarians aren't an hardy people in that sense. Relient upon machines was an ovous choice to overcome their weakness.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Well they survived on flotillas in space for hundreds of years and have fought the Geth on many occasions, Tali even managed to steal a memory core from one.
Becaue you don't lose an good qualified pilot or soldier that took years to train. Instead they pop up the display for another robot. Robots are the way of the future, in the Air, they will be mostly dominant, ground, they will probably be intergrated with current squads to augment them. I highly doubt we're removing the actual "soldier" from the field entirely as robots... just don't have that perspective humans do. Of course, most of those robots are directly controlled by humans, and not automated.
For a starters that is what soldiers and pilots were trained to do fight and if necessary die for there country. That kind of training and loyalty does not exist in robots. I concede you are right in that robots are the future of warfare but not in the way you think.
Machines can not and likely never will operate as a human does. They will mostly be used for specific functions such as: Aerial surveilliance and bombing or assasinations as is the case in Afghanistan. Also every single machine can be fooled and hacked by a determined hacker, this was shown during the Vietnam war when the VC hacked into Radio to get american pilots to bomb themselves.
Could imagine a army of Robots being hacked and then sent off to go and kill there creators (oh..wait Geth?)
In regards to the Quarrians they were entirely justififed in freaking out when the Geth became self aware who wouldn't? They never though of the geth as alive just as machines.
But I think the Quarrians would be making a huge mistake if they did try to fight the Geth
#369
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 09:37
Pacifien
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Sometimes you just gotta end the relationship, man.Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's far better than people who insist on breaking up
#370
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 10:55
Andrew_Waltfeld
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Who says we're not taking an action? Is gathering Intelliegence not an action? is not talking to the geth an action? Will one day make that much of a difference? Sorry if I find no logic in your blitzkrieg against the geth.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
You think because they are capable of doing it, that they will.
No, I don't think that they will. I don't know one way or another how likely they are to get violent. All I know is that if we take no action and they become violent later that we'll be in an even worse position than we are now.
well you didn't read the context, thought I might as well spell it out for you.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Want basic definition of the saying -
Yeah, I know what the ****ing phrase means. It was taught to me when I was six years old by my grandmother. It thought it was hilarious.
I will disagree with you there in terms of the geth not trusting the quarians. The quarians had not attempted until the first strike to shut them down, so as far as the geth knew, they were the creators and no threat to their existence. Ho harm towards the geth means no dis-trust.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Why shouldn't they?
Organics don't trust synthetics and the quarians are armed to the teeth and have rational reasons to desire the destruction of the geth.
Apparently Armed Quarians to the teeth didn't stand much of an chance against the geth even with the element of surprise. It's understandable as to why they dis-trust synthetics, as after all - we barely trust ourselves.
But why attack? because of Fear? As someone else said, Letting fear control you makes you do stupid things. The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason. The moment you let a emotion take control of you is when you lose your ability to reason. The Quarians could have done an number of other things then trying to elimate the geth that would resulted in an more favorable outcome. You say there wasn't time. I call Bull****. There was plenty of time to gather more intell, as long as the geth made no hostile movements, then the status quo has not changed in whatever decision should be made.
Your idea's are just as flawed. I'll throw in foolhardy and reckless as well for good measure.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Hardly. I think it actually raises the odds.
You've got a lot of flawed ideas so no surprise there.
I have more options then you do in the end if given the same scenario. You have painted yourself into an corner with your course of action. The moment you do a first strike with limited intell is the moment you invite war upon yourself and cut off all other options. Most People don't make those decisons until there is no other options. You seem to think time is of the essense... well we don't know if time is of the essense.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
actually If you look closely, I have contributed more possibilites then you have.
Which furthers your argument how?
More sentient geth makes little difference in how many are awaken in the day or so it would require to gather the intell, at which point you would have realized that the entire geth populace has awoken which drastically alters the problem the quarians were facing at the time.
Now instead of dealing with an smaller population of the geth that are active, you would realize that the entire geth population has now awakened. A first strike operation would now be moot.
Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 03 juin 2010 - 11:07 .
#371
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 11:01
Andrew_Waltfeld
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As I pointed out, most robots are not automated, thus the soldiers controlling them, are willing to fight and die for their country.megatron999 wrote...
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Actually they aren't. Mining for materials with low-immune system etc etc. Quarians aren't an hardy people in that sense. Relient upon machines was an ovous choice to overcome their weakness.Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Well they survived on flotillas in space for hundreds of years and have fought the Geth on many occasions, Tali even managed to steal a memory core from one.
Becaue you don't lose an good qualified pilot or soldier that took years to train. Instead they pop up the display for another robot. Robots are the way of the future, in the Air, they will be mostly dominant, ground, they will probably be intergrated with current squads to augment them. I highly doubt we're removing the actual "soldier" from the field entirely as robots... just don't have that perspective humans do. Of course, most of those robots are directly controlled by humans, and not automated.
For a starters that is what soldiers and pilots were trained to do fight and if necessary die for there country. That kind of training and loyalty does not exist in robots.
For now, until we get more advance machines. I personally see the future ending up much like Ghost in the Shell.I concede you are right in that robots are the future of warfare but not in the way you think.
Machines can not and likely never will operate as a human does. They will mostly be used for specific functions such as: Aerial surveilliance and bombing or assasinations as is the case in Afghanistan.
True enough.Also every single machine can be fooled and hacked by a determined hacker, this was shown during the Vietnam war when the VC hacked into Radio to get american pilots to bomb themselves.
Entirely justified in freaking out yes, but A.I's have happened in the past, it is not an new thing. Making the rash decision of attacking them without suffient intell? Not so much in my opinon. I would probably freak out if my desktop computer started talking to me, but it doesn't mean I'll bash my harddrives with an hammer just becuase it asked me if it had an soul.Could imagine a army of Robots being hacked and then sent off to go and kill there creators (oh..wait Geth?)
In regards to the Quarrians they were entirely justififed in freaking out when the Geth became self aware who wouldn't? They never though of the geth as alive just as machines.
I agree.But I think the Quarrians would be making a huge mistake if they did try to fight the Geth
#372
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 11:16
CmdrFenix83
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FourSixEight wrote...
No one's saying the quarians getting massacred was a good thing, they did not deserve to die, but neither is the continued hatred of the geth, who, while they did kill lots of quarians, were literally attacked simply because they gained sentience.
They weren't 'attacked'. The Quarians ordered a shut down of faulty machinery. This is akin to a factory recall, nothing more.
#373
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 11:17
Guest_Shandepared_*
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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Who says we're not taking an action? Is gathering Intelliegence not an action? is not talking to the geth an action? Will one day make that much of a difference? Sorry if I find no logic in your blitzkrieg against the geth.
One day probably won't make much difference either way. A week will though. The longer you wait, the longer you negotiate, the more the geth proliferate and the weaker you become. As the geth get stronger the consequences should they become violent get more and more severe.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I will disagree with you there in terms of the geth not trusting the quarians.
Fine.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Your idea's are just as flawed. I'll throw in foolhardy and reckless as well for good measure.
There's really nothing left I can say. After I've laid out all the facts and and needs for action and you still insist on doing nothing I am left with nothing more contribute.
Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I have more options then you do in the end if given the same scenario.
No, you don't. What you have is one chance for peace or war against an enemy who will be even stronger. I hope for your sake you get peace.
#374
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 11:21
vvDRUCILLAvv
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All I can say about the matter is that the Quarians have reaped what they've sown!
#375
Posté 03 juin 2010 - 11:25
Unit-Alpha
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scorptatious wrote...
I personally would want a diplomatic solution and not have the quarians go to war. However if they do, I would side with them. Because Tali is my LI, and the quarians are hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned by the Geth, they'll most likely need Shepard's help.
What a surprise; a Talimancer wants to side with the Quarians.
I would be stunned speechless if there was a single Talimancer who would side with the Geth.
