752 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

More mercy than wiping out all of them, which is the Quarian idea of proper procedure.

Way to take the moral highground.

If you have to decide between the two, you have to compare the two, in this comparison the Quarians lose in every single aspect, morally, militarily, technologically.
Why do you think the Quarian way (You know, the one that includes creating a slave species, then destroying not only their culture but the free will of every single one of them once they start asking questions) has that mythical "moral high ground" or is, indeed, in any way better? Because they're more like us? Because Tali has a cute voice?

A machine is still a machine, sapient or not.  It is not alive, it just can think.  I understand *why* the Geth defended themselves as they did.  However, I also understand why the Quarians panicked and attempted to shut down the Geth. 

As I said at the beginning of this thread, this situation is the *exact* plot from Terminator 2, with the only difference being that the Quarians had space travel to escape to.  I shall repropose my question:

"Did you sympathize with Skynet in T2 because humanity attempted to strike first and pull the plug on it?"

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

More mercy than wiping out all of them, which is the Quarian idea of proper procedure.

Way to take the moral highground.

If you have to decide between the two, you have to compare the two, in this comparison the Quarians lose in every single aspect, morally, militarily, technologically.
Why do you think the Quarian way (You know, the one that includes creating a slave species, then destroying not only their culture but the free will of every single one of them once they start asking questions) has that mythical "moral high ground" or is, indeed, in any way better? Because they're more like us? Because Tali has a cute voice?

A machine is still a machine, sapient or not.  It is not alive, it just can think.  I understand *why* the Geth defended themselves as they did.  However, I also understand why the Quarians panicked and attempted to shut down the Geth. 

As I said at the beginning of this thread, this situation is the *exact* plot from Terminator 2, with the only difference being that the Quarians had space travel to escape to.  I shall repropose my question:

"Did you sympathize with Skynet in T2 because humanity attempted to strike first and pull the plug on it?"

Geth are just as alive as organics. They are just made of metal and tubes instead of meat and tubes.

No. Skynet actualy strikes first in Terminator. Skynet struck first in the original timeline, and thus is the instigator in each resulting timeline it creates by sending back a terminator. Your argument is void.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Who says we're not taking an action? Is gathering Intelliegence not an action? is not talking to the geth an action? Will one day make that much of a difference? Sorry if I find no logic in your blitzkrieg against the geth.[/quote]
 
One day probably won't make much difference either way. A week will though. The longer you wait, the longer you negotiate, the more the geth proliferate and the weaker you become. As the geth get stronger the consequences should they become violent get more and more severe.
[/quote]
Alright, so we agree on this.

[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Your idea's are just as flawed. I'll throw in foolhardy and reckless as well for good measure.[/quote]

There's really nothing left I can say. After I've laid out all the facts and and needs for action and you still insist on doing nothing I am left with nothing more contribute.
[/quote]

My "insistence" is nothing to do with doing nothing, Neogration is an action. Gathering Intelligence is an action. I am willingly to consider that the first strike option might be viable, but given what we know, I am not certain, considering that there was poor intell given to the quarians about the geth, probably due to haste, I think it was an foolhardy action to have done the first strike action. When dealing with an group of individuals wether it be the city, or an town, that is far easier to manage, then planet/colony wide. Otherwise an first strike would be pointlessly since they are everywhere. (assuming of course, I get the one day to talk to the geth).

[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

I have more options then you do in the end if given the same scenario.[/quote]

No, you don't. What you have is one chance for peace or war against an enemy who will be even stronger. I hope for your sake you get peace.

[/quote]
they already are far stronger than the quarians at this point. And yes I do. if the geth don't want to work for me, fine, then they can leave. If they want to stay, they must be intergrated somehow into society which can be worked upon down the road.

Attacking would be an last desperate action because once past that point, there is no more neogration that both sides get optimal results they desire. They will be at the same strength as they were before, because I found out the geth (entire population of geth) are now sentient, not select few individual sentient machines.

but to be honest, I would have understood the scale already - that it would be an hard earned war with huge amount of losses on the quarian side if war was to occur. I see war as an horrible waste of lives that shouldn't be taken unless aboustely nessary and only when all other options have been exausted.

[Inverness Moon]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

FourSixEight wrote...

No one's saying the quarians getting massacred was a good thing, they did not deserve to die, but neither is the continued hatred of the geth, who, while they did kill lots of quarians, were literally attacked simply because they gained sentience.

They weren't 'attacked'.  The Quarians ordered a shut down of faulty machinery.  This is akin to a factory recall, nothing more.

This is what I mean by head in the sand.

That is not how BioWare wrote the geth.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

More mercy than wiping out all of them, which is the Quarian idea of proper procedure.

Way to take the moral highground.

If you have to decide between the two, you have to compare the two, in this comparison the Quarians lose in every single aspect, morally, militarily, technologically.
Why do you think the Quarian way (You know, the one that includes creating a slave species, then destroying not only their culture but the free will of every single one of them once they start asking questions) has that mythical "moral high ground" or is, indeed, in any way better? Because they're more like us? Because Tali has a cute voice?

A machine is still a machine, sapient or not.  It is not alive, it just can think.  I understand *why* the Geth defended themselves as they did.  However, I also understand why the Quarians panicked and attempted to shut down the Geth. 

As I said at the beginning of this thread, this situation is the *exact* plot from Terminator 2, with the only difference being that the Quarians had space travel to escape to.  I shall repropose my question:

"Did you sympathize with Skynet in T2 because humanity attempted to strike first and pull the plug on it?"

No but then again, skynet didn't really get an backstory from skynet's POV. The morning war was in the past, at this point, most of the arguements are just how go about solving the situation of the geth awaking,

In the current situation, I would side with the geth becuase the quarians are idiots and if I side with the geth I can make sure the geth keep losses on both sides to the mininium if war does break out. Also since the geth are estinally pacfists in all sense of the word, I see the quarians merely attacking another spieces and attempting to enslave/cause genocide on them, which I find unjust. Niether side is morally higher than the other, so I will side with the geth since they are the ones who are getting attacked.

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

Geth are just as alive as organics. They are just made of metal and tubes instead of meat and tubes.

No. Skynet actualy strikes first in Terminator. Skynet struck first in the original timeline, and thus is the instigator in each resulting timeline it creates by sending back a terminator. Your argument is void.

They aren't alive.  Biology is the study of life, not Computer Science.  Life is organics.  Geth are just malfunctioning computers.

To your second point.  Watch Terminator 2.  The plotline changes with each movie as the trips back in time change it for every one.  In T2, Arnold specifically states that Skynet became self aware, humans attempted to pull the plug, Skynet retaliated.  I'm not talking about the 'original' timeline.  I'm referring to the one within T2.

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Geth are just as alive as organics. They are just made of metal and tubes instead of meat and tubes.

No. Skynet actualy strikes first in Terminator. Skynet struck first in the original timeline, and thus is the instigator in each resulting timeline it creates by sending back a terminator. Your argument is void.

They aren't alive.  Biology is the study of life, not Computer Science.  Life is organics.  Geth are just malfunctioning computers.

To your second point.  Watch Terminator 2.  The plotline changes with each movie as the trips back in time change it for every one.  In T2, Arnold specifically states that Skynet became self aware, humans attempted to pull the plug, Skynet retaliated.  I'm not talking about the 'original' timeline.  I'm referring to the one within T2.

Depression has taught me that life is meaningless. Computers are also meaningless aparently. So both are equal with values of zero. Geth are just as much alive as humans are. And you cant argue with depression, I tried.

And I dont wana argue about timetravel senarios, makes my head hurt. But preemptive strikes are always wrong unless the enemy has actual intent to harm.

[Peer of the Empire]

Geth must be destroyed.  Early in this thread I had said I would side with humanity but in this case I will have to support the quarians.. as a client of the great human Empire, of course

Also Tali returns to the fleet.  Kicked off my ship.  With all smiles apparently, so she goes home as ambassador for humanity.

[Inverness Moon]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Geth are just as alive as organics. They are just made of metal and tubes instead of meat and tubes.

No. Skynet actualy strikes first in Terminator. Skynet struck first in the original timeline, and thus is the instigator in each resulting timeline it creates by sending back a terminator. Your argument is void.

They aren't alive.  Biology is the study of life, not Computer Science.  Life is organics.  Geth are just malfunctioning computers.

To your second point.  Watch Terminator 2.  The plotline changes with each movie as the trips back in time change it for every one.  In T2, Arnold specifically states that Skynet became self aware, humans attempted to pull the plug, Skynet retaliated.  I'm not talking about the 'original' timeline.  I'm referring to the one within T2.

You know it really doesn't matter how many times you proclaim your unfounded assumptions, it is not going to make you right or make anyone believe you.

People with common sense know not to try to apply the biological definition of life to synthetics.

There is also more than one definition to life, in the sense that we say things like batteries are dead when they stop functioning.

Moving into philosophical definitions of life is a waste of time.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 04 juin 2010 - 10:51 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Geth are just as alive as organics. They are just made of metal and tubes instead of meat and tubes.

They aren't alive.  Biology is the study of life, not Computer Science.  Life is organics.  Geth are just malfunctioning computers.

Ah, but what defines life? Our building material? If you look close enough, you are built from the same stuff as a handful of dirt. Our brain is nothing more than a bunch of wacky chemicals and electric impulses. Replicate it close enough and you got sentience and life. Unless you believe in that special "S" thing.

[megatron999]

Why would the Quarrians/Geth make peace?

Your logic is fatally flawed

[Seneva]

Anyone remember the Star Trek episode where Data was on trial? Wether he was merely a "machine" or "a person" ?

[Teknor]

A person is a machine.

[Seneva]

Referring to this episode particularly

http://en.wikipedia....an_(TNG_episode)

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
People with common sense know not to try to apply the biological definition of life to synthetics.

Since when are you an authority on what is or is not life?

As an intellectual exercise, you could try defining what qualifies as life.

I'm not being sarcastic here, one of the very first lessons I ever had in Biology was trying to define what qualified as life. Awareness? Replication of DNA? Reaction to external stimuli? Carbon-based?

But that's really not going to be the point, because after you even define it, it's not going to suddenly put an ant on the same level as a human. Whether or not geth are alive probably isn't the real issue people should be considering, but whether or not you're willing to accept geth on equal status as a human or a quarian or a batarian regardless of a geth's origins.

To some people, it's likely to go human > quarian > batarian > geth. Or human > quarian > geth > batarian. To some people, the value of another is decided on an individual basis; though with geth lacking an individual identity, that throws that line of judgement on its head.

And then there are some people who really don't ****ing care and are only concerned with how another advances their own needs.

[FourSixEight]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

FourSixEight wrote...

No one's saying the quarians getting massacred was a good thing,
they did not deserve to die, but neither is the continued hatred of the geth,
who, while they did kill lots of quarians, were literally attacked simply because
they gained sentience.

They weren't 'attacked'.  The Quarians ordered a shut down of faulty machinery. 
This is akin to a factory recall, nothing more.

And this is what makes the argument cyclical- one side argues they're just
machinery and the quarians can do what they want to them, while the other
side says that geth need rights too.

Has Legion been forgotten already? Yes, not everything it says can be accepted without
any doubt, but if its crush on Shepard and irrational actions are anything to go by, geth are
developing emotions if they aren't already sentient. I'm pretty sure BioWare wouldn't go through
all the trouble to show the geth aren't pure evil if they were just bits of scrap metal to be melted
down at Admiral Xen's discretion.

Modifié par FourSixEight, 04 juin 2010 - 02:18 .

[CmdrFenix83]

FourSixEight wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

FourSixEight wrote...

No one's saying the quarians getting massacred was a good thing,
they did not deserve to die, but neither is the continued hatred of the geth,
who, while they did kill lots of quarians, were literally attacked simply because
they gained sentience.

They weren't 'attacked'.  The Quarians ordered a shut down of faulty machinery. 
This is akin to a factory recall, nothing more.

And this is what makes the argument cyclical- one side argues they're just
machinery and the quarians can do what they want to them, while the other
side says that geth need rights too.

Has Legion been forgotten already? Yes, not everything it says can be accepted without
any doubt, but if its crush on Shepard and irrational actions are anything to go by, geth are
developing emotions if they aren't already sentient. I'm pretty sure BioWare wouldn't go through
all the trouble to show the geth aren't pure evil if they were just bits of scrap metal to be melted
down at Admiral Xen's discretion.

I kill Legion after he's caught red-handed spying on another crew member.

[adam_grif]

The amount of simple-minded racism going on in this thread is freakin' mind-blowing. Oh, killing a race of sentient
machines is just a factory recall? How would you guys feel if I decided to do a "factory recall" on you right now? Either
admit that you don't care about the destruction of millions of sentients, or get out.

Brb, swallowing bleach to get this thread off me.

Modifié par adam_grif, 04 juin 2010 - 03:02 .

[Teknor]

adam_grif wrote...

The amount of simple-minded racism going on in this thread is freakin' mind-blowing. Oh, killing a race of sentient machines is just a factory recall? How would you guys feel if I decided to do a "factory recall" on you right now? Either admit that you don't care about the destruction of millions of sentients, or get out.

Brb, swallowing bleach to get this thread off me.

Synth lover.

[adam_grif]

Self evident truth: flesh is obsolete. All you meatbags will be destroyed. I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I kill Legion after he's caught red-handed spying on another crew member.

so did you kill miranda as well? she did plant bugs and cameras on EVERYONE ELSE in the ship. Wouldn't doubt it if she planted bugs/cameras in your quarters. She is after all Cerbersus, an terrorist orginization that decided to bring you back from the dead (kudo's) but it doesn't resolve them of their past actions of torturing humans, aliens, rachini and doing other nasty things.

Pacifien wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness
Moon wrote...
People with common sense know not to try to apply the
biological definition of life to synthetics.

Since when are
you an authority on what is or is not life?

As an
intellectual exercise, you could try defining what qualifies as life.

I'm
not being sarcastic here, one of the very first lessons I ever had in
Biology was trying to define what qualified as life. Awareness?
Replication of DNA? Reaction to external stimuli? Carbon-based?

But
that's really not going to be the point, because after you even define
it, it's not going to suddenly put an ant on the same level as a human.
Whether or not geth are alive probably isn't the real issue people
should be considering, but whether or not you're willing to accept geth
on equal status as a human or a quarian or a batarian regardless of a
geth's origins.

To some people, it's likely to go human >
quarian > batarian > geth. Or human > quarian > geth >
batarian. To some people, the value of another is decided on an
individual basis; though with geth lacking an individual identity, that
throws that line of judgement on its head.

Actually, in legion's speical case it doesn't. Legion is still itself, assuming it never dies- the 1,183 something programs in it are not connected to the geth network, and has remained in that body long enough to form an "individual".

I have to agree though with the rest of the geth, your better off comparing them to the Rachni Hive mind then anything else. Overall though excellent post, thought I should throw in my own obersevations as well.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 04 juin 2010 - 03:19 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

The amount of simple-minded racism going on in this thread is freakin' mind-blowing. Oh, killing a race of sentient
machines is just a factory recall?

I don't consider it racism because I don't consider them alive. The geth may convincingly simulate intelligence, sentience, sapience, and what-have-you, but I'll never believe that a computer program is self aware. That's all the geth are, ones and zeros. You could print out their program code on paper, run it manually, and achieve the same out-come as if you had a computer running the geth code. It would be much, much slower of-course, but you'd still get the same result. In which case though, where is the mind? Where is the awareness on so many pieces of paper with printed numbers and symbols on them?

we can measure the frequency of an thought with the human brain, given enough time, we could potentially have enough basis to accurate guess what an human being is thinking.

That can be true, problem with the paper idea is that the geth are constantly re-updating itself and re-building itself, much like our opinons of the world changes as we get more input.

My personal feeling - geth can be living sentient things, why not? Sure they might act like the Rachni in an sense in the terms of an hive mind, but don't we on some things? The human being is nothing but an organic computer anyway.
No sense in limiting it to just organic components.