752 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

You know it really doesn't matter how many times you proclaim your unfounded assumptions, it is not going to make you right or make anyone believe you.

People with common sense know not to try to apply the biological definition of life to synthetics.

Since when are you an authority on what is or is not life?

Since I could read the definitions out of a dictionary.

Shandepared wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

The amount of simple-minded racism going on in this thread is freakin' mind-blowing. Oh, killing a race of sentient
machines is just a factory recall?

I don't consider it racism because I don't consider them alive. The geth may convincingly simulate intelligence, sentience, sapience, and what-have-you, but I'll never believe that a computer program is self aware. That's all the geth are, ones and zeros. You could print out their program code on paper, run it manually, and achieve the same out-come as if you had a computer running the geth code. It would be much, much slower of-course, but you'd still get the same result. In which case though, where is the mind? Where is the awareness on so many pieces of paper with printed numbers and symbols on them?

I see, based on what you said I have to assume you believe in the soul and that is why you say a computer program could not have one. Is that true?

If not, I see no reason why an advanced computer program could be created that would mimic how a human brain operates. I think it is quite easy to say that a digital analogue of the human brain (like Cortana from Halo) would be self-aware.

By the way, how do you think the geth could be asking if they had a soul if they were not self-aware?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 04 juin 2010 - 03:36 .

[adam_grif]

I don't consider Shandepared to be alive. Sure, he may convincingly simulate intelligence, sentience,

sapience, and what-have-you, but I'll never believe that a series of neurons can be self aware. They're

just a series of glorified copper wires that fire signals across gaps. How can what ammounts to a

fleshy computer possibly be intelligent or self aware? After all, you could just draw a huge mathematical

representation of Shandepared's brain and apply the laws of physicss to them, and get all the exact

same outputs as the brain does. It would be much slower of course, but you'd still get the same result.

Where is the mind? Where is the awareness on so many pieces of paper with printed numbers

and symbols on them?





The problem of explaining sentience is one of philosophy, but if you cannot even prove to me that you

are sentient, how can you possibly expect it of someone else?

[Pacifien]

I'm curious to know if those who feel there are limitations to a computer simulating life if they've ever thought about technological singularity. Because a geth dyson sphere could arguably have power beyond what an organic brain is capable of achieving or comprehending.

But that totally doesn't have anything to do with choosing quarians versus geth. Unless you're very interested in seeing what happens when the geth build a dyson sphere.

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I kill Legion after he's caught red-handed spying on another crew member.

so did you kill miranda as well? she did plant bugs and cameras on EVERYONE ELSE in the ship. Wouldn't doubt it if she planted bugs/cameras in your quarters. She is after all Cerbersus, an terrorist orginization that decided to bring you back from the dead (kudo's) but it doesn't resolve them of their past actions of torturing humans, aliens, rachini and doing other nasty things.

Actually, yes.  On my main playthrough I made sure Miranda died as well.  Difficult since there's only 1 way to kill her, but I still do it.  I don't condone Cerberus' actions, nor do I forgive them.  They are, however, a necessary evil against the Reapers. 

The Geth, as far as I'm concerned, are still enemies, and Legion's sob story was nothing more than a fairy tale designed to earn Shepard's trust.  He was caught spying on a crew member, I would have told Tali to shoot him as a spy had it been an option.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 04 juin 2010 - 04:37 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Pacifien wrote...

I'm curious to know if those who feel there are limitations to a computer simulating life if they've ever thought about technological singularity. Because a geth dyson sphere could arguably have power beyond what an organic brain is capable of achieving or comprehending.
But that totally doesn't have anything to do with choosing quarians versus geth. Unless you're very interested in seeing what happens when the geth build a dyson sphere.

No matter how advanced a machine becomes, it's still a machine.  They are *not* living beings.  They are no more alive than farm equipment or a computer.  They are an *imitation* of life, not life itself.  To consider them as such is to anthropomorphize them.

[Inverness Moon]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

I'm curious to know if those who feel there are limitations to a computer simulating life if they've ever thought about technological singularity. Because a geth dyson sphere could arguably have power beyond what an organic brain is capable of achieving or comprehending.
But that totally doesn't have anything to do with choosing quarians versus geth. Unless you're very interested in seeing what happens when the geth build a dyson sphere.

No matter how advanced a machine becomes, it's still a machine.  They are *not* living beings.  They are no more alive than farm equipment or a computer.  They are an *imitation* of life, not life itself.  To consider them as such is to anthropomorphize them.

Obviously machines aren't organic life because they're not organic, what's your point?

[Pacifien]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
No matter how advanced a machine becomes, it's still a machine.  They are *not* living beings.  They are no more alive than farm equipment or a computer.  They are an *imitation* of life, not life itself.  To consider them as such is to anthropomorphize them.

I'm not anthropomorphizing them, I'm wondering what happens when they achieve technological singularity, which is a concept not limited to living beings.

[GreenDragon37]

Geth. Personally, I prefer peace between the two. I like the Quarians, I really do, and Tali is my LI. But if the Quarians are stupid enough to go to war, then I will have to side with the Geth, if not to prevent more Quarian lives from being lost than there will be, but because the Quarins started it, it's been 300 years, they had a way out, they have reaped what they sown, and they want to go to war again? If this is the case, then the cause is lost.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 04 juin 2010 - 04:56 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Obviously machines aren't organic life because they're not organic, what's your point?

That *is* the point.  They aren't life.  They aren't alive.  They don't get treated as such.  The Geth are faulty machinery.  Performing a function that not intended by the builders.  A shut down was ordered as they had the potential to be dangerous.  This is more akin to the recent Toyota recall than anything resembling genocide. 

To treat the Geth as anything more than machines is to anthropomorphize them and treat them as if they really were living beings.  They are not, and terms such as 'kill' and 'genocide' do not apply to them.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 04 juin 2010 - 05:03 .

[Teknor]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Obviously machines aren't organic life because they're not organic, what's your point?

That *is* the point.  They aren't life.  They aren't alive.  They don't get treated as such.  The Geth are faulty machinery.  Performing a function that not intended by the builders.  A shut down was ordered as they had the potential to be dangerous.  This is more akin to the recent Toyota recall than anything resembling genocide. 

To treat the Geth as anything more than machines is to anthropomorphize them and treat them as if they really were living beings.  They are not, and terms such as 'kill' and 'genocide' do not apply to them.

You are just a organic machine too so what's your point ? Don't tell me you have a soul please. 

[Pacifien]

Teknor wrote...
You are just a organic machine too so what's your point ? Don't tell me you have a soul please. 

I imagine it goes something like this: organic > machine. Always.

Don't personally agree. I value my car more than some people.

Don't judge, it's a really ****in' car.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I kill Legion after he's caught red-handed spying on another crew member.

so did you kill miranda as well? she did plant bugs and cameras on EVERYONE ELSE in the ship. Wouldn't doubt it if she planted bugs/cameras in your quarters. She is after all Cerbersus, an terrorist orginization that decided to bring you back from the dead (kudo's) but it doesn't resolve them of their past actions of torturing humans, aliens, rachini and doing other nasty things.

Actually, yes.  On my main playthrough I made sure Miranda died as well.  Difficult since there's only 1 way to kill her, but I still do it.  I don't condone Cerberus' actions, nor do I forgive them.  They are, however, a necessary evil against the Reapers. 

Ok cool, at least your not using an double standard like some people do. IE - Legion was spying on tali, so I shot him, Miranda was spying on EVERYONE, but I decided to bone her instead. 

The Geth, as far as I'm concerned, are still enemies, and Legion's sob story was nothing more than a fairy tale designed to earn Shepard's trust.  He was caught spying on a crew member, I would have told Tali to shoot him as a spy had it been an option.

Your view, though I respectly have to say your wrong, but it is all an matter of perspective and opinon.

[CmdrFenix83]

Teknor wrote...

You are just a organic machine too so what's your point ? Don't tell me you have a soul please. 

I don't believe in a soul.  I am alive.  I breathe.  I eat.  I feel pain.  Our cats are alive.  They also breathe, eat, feel pain, etc.  A machine is a machine.  I will always prioritize life over a machine.  The Geth cannot do these things.  They can simulate or imitate life, but no amount of imitation will make it actually alive. 

Legion would be the perfect choice for high-risk assignments precisely because it isn't a living being.  If it gets destroyed, there's no real loss.  The platform can be recreated and the software can be installed into it again, and the only difference you would have between that Legion and the prior one would be the data in its' memory.  Nothing more.

Even a clone(which I see as an affront to nature) will not be the exact same individual as the one with its' identical DNA.  Its' experiences and upbringing will shape it differently and it will still be a unique individual.

[Teknor]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Teknor wrote...

You are just a organic machine too so what's your point ? Don't tell me you have a soul please. 

I don't believe in a soul.  I am alive.  I breathe.  I eat.  I feel pain.  Our cats are alive.  They also breathe, eat, feel pain, etc.  A machine is a machine.  I will always prioritize life over a machine.  The Geth cannot do these things.  They can simulate or imitate life, but no amount of imitation will make it actually alive. 

Legion would be the perfect choice for high-risk assignments precisely because it isn't a living being.  If it gets destroyed, there's no real loss.  The platform can be recreated and the software can be installed into it again, and the only difference you would have between that Legion and the prior one would be the data in its' memory.  Nothing more.

Even a clone(which I see as an affront to nature) will not be the exact same individual as the one with its' identical DNA.  Its' experiences and upbringing will shape it differently and it will still be a unique individual.

A machine is a sum of its parts working in unison. What you call life or being alive is just your parts perfoming their duty. Same can be said for Geth too. 

[Nightwriter]

In fiction we must forgo the immersion-breaker that robots' feelings are only simulations.

Yes, it is impossible for a machine to feel, but C-3PO is still anxious and cowardly, R2-D2 is still brave and spunky, the Doctor on Voyager is still offended when he is dehumanized, and Legion still gets angry with you if you side with Tali.

There's no point denying these feelings are real when the writer intends them to be real, implausible as that may be.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Teknor wrote...

You are just a organic machine too so what's your point ? Don't tell me you have a soul please. 

I don't believe in a soul.  I am alive.  I breathe.  I eat.  I feel pain.  Our cats are alive.  They also breathe, eat, feel pain, etc.  A machine is a machine.  I will always prioritize life over a machine.  The Geth cannot do these things.  They can simulate or imitate life, but no amount of imitation will make it actually alive. 

So they aren't living because this is an requirement to be alive? Sucks for those people who can't feel pain, apparently they aren't Alive, someone must inform them. Same must be said for those people who don't feel emotions.

There is an point where if it walks and acts like an duck, it's an duck. Plain and Simple.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

In fiction we must forgo the immersion-breaker that robots' feelings are only simulations.

Yes, it is impossible for a machine to feel, but C-3PO is still anxious and cowardly, R2-D2 is still brave and spunky, the Doctor on Voyager is still offended when he is dehumanized, and Legion still gets angry with you if you side with Tali.

There's no point denying these feelings are real when the writer intends them to be real, implausible as that may be.

Legion isn't 'mad' at you.  Anger isn't something the Geth are capable of.  Legion states flat out that it understands your decision.

There's also no reason for me to apply suspension of disbelief when it comes to AI.  I can like the character without considering it to be a living being.  I can like Cortana, Bishop, R2-D2, and C-3PO without the need to view them as alive.  In fact, originally, the only reason C-3PO and R2-D2 had personalities at all was because they had eccentricities within their programming developed from going so long without a memory wipe.  That was how they explained only those two droids having personalities and none of the others.  (God I hate Lucas and the prequels)

I'm well aware that the writers want us to sympathize with the Geth.  In fact, Shepard is forced to through dialogue options.  Talking to Tali back in ME1, you literally were given no choice beyond condemning the Quarian's actions against them.  You can't agree with them even if the character you're roleplaying would.  Frankly, it annoys me.

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

So they aren't living because this is an requirement to be alive? Sucks for those people who can't feel pain, apparently they aren't Alive, someone must inform them. Same must be said for those people who don't feel emotions.

There is an point where if it walks and acts like an duck, it's an duck. Plain and Simple.

Personally, if I lost the ability to feel anything(paralyzed, as you suggest), I would be begging everyone around me to put me out of my misery.  That would be a horrible existence. 

To the second part, everyone feels emotions.  Everyone.  There is no human being alive that doesn't feel them.  Just because they can control how the emotion effects them does not mean the emotional response isn't there. 

And a mechanical duck could be designed to walk like a duck and act like one.  That doesn't make it anything more than a robot imitating a duck.  I could put on the uniform of a police officer and stand in the street and direct traffic, but that doesn't make me a cop, just an imitation of one.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

So they aren't living because this is an requirement to be alive? Sucks for those people who can't feel pain, apparently they aren't Alive, someone must inform them. Same must be said for those people who don't feel emotions.

There is an point where if it walks and acts like an duck, it's an duck. Plain and Simple.

Personally, if I lost the ability to feel anything(paralyzed, as you suggest), I would be begging everyone around me to put me out of my misery.  That would be a horrible existence. 

Actually refering to people who aren't Paralyzed, the nerve endings don't work properly, so they don't register pain. so they could accidently burn themselves if they aren't careful or break something without even realizing it.

To the second part, everyone feels emotions.  Everyone.  There is no human being alive that doesn't feel them.  Just because they can control how the emotion effects them does not mean the emotional response isn't there. 

Actually was refering to people who are pyschopaths.

And a mechanical duck could be designed to walk like a duck and act like one.  That doesn't make it anything more than a robot imitating a duck.  I could put on the uniform of a police officer and stand in the street and direct traffic, but that doesn't make me a cop, just an imitation of one.

and if you watched an group of cops for an very long time looking at all aspects of their duties, eventually you could do the job of an cop no? Suddenly your imiation of an cop is now a full blown where if someone lined you up with an bunch of cops, then they would not be able to tell you apart from the real cops.

either way, It's an really and difference of opinons. Personally enjoy these kindof debates, much food for thought is bought up on these forums.

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Actually refering to people who aren't Paralyzed, the nerve endings don't work properly, so they don't register pain. so they could accidently burn themselves if they aren't careful or break something without even realizing it.

Actually was refering to people who are pyschopaths.

and if you watched an group of cops for an very long time looking at all aspects of their duties, eventually you could do the job of an cop no? Suddenly your imiation of an cop is now a full blown where if someone lined you up with an bunch of cops, then they would not be able to tell you apart from the real cops.

either way, It's an really and difference of opinons. Personally enjoy these kindof debates, much food for thought is bought up on these forums.

I don't think it's possible for the nerve endings of the entire body to 'not work properly'.  You can kill the nerve endings from a burn or even callous up your skin to the point where pain cannot be sense from there, but that doesn't prevent you from feeling pain eeverywhere.

Psychopaths have plenty of emotions.  The do what they do because they enjoy it.  That's an emotion. 

To be a cop, you actually have to have a badge and join a police force.  Even if you can imitate them with 100% accuracy, if you aren't officially a member of a police organization, they can arrest you for impersonating a police officer.  No amount of immitation matters without actually being one.

I'm actually enjoying this today myself, as this has been mostly civil.  More than I can say for the other times I've participated in the Geth vs Quarians topics.

[Pacifien]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I don't think it's possible for the nerve endings of the entire body to 'not work properly'.  You can kill the nerve endings from a burn or even callous up your skin to the point where pain cannot be sense from there, but that doesn't prevent you from feeling pain eeverywhere.

Well, you can be born that way, but I don't think that actually has any relevance to the debate here.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Psychopaths have plenty of emotions.  The do what they do because they enjoy it.  That's an emotion.

A psychopath lacks empathy, but can still feel other emotions, I'm sure.  Which is another comment of mine that I don't think actually has any relevance to the debate here, but whatever.

[CmdrFenix83]

Pacifien wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I don't think it's possible for the nerve endings of the entire body to 'not work properly'.  You can kill the nerve endings from a burn or even callous up your skin to the point where pain cannot be sense from there, but that doesn't prevent you from feeling pain eeverywhere.

Well, you can be born that way, but I don't think that actually has any relevance to the debate here.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Psychopaths have plenty of emotions.  The do what they do because they enjoy it.  That's an emotion.

A psychopath lacks empathy, but can still feel other emotions, I'm sure.  Which is another comment of mine that I don't think actually has any relevance to the debate here, but whatever.

Huh.  Thanks for that link.  I had no idea such a thing existed.  Though those individuals could still feel pain... just not physical pain.   Semantics, I know, but still.

And indeed.  I never said anything about empathy, just emotions.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I don't think it's possible for the nerve endings of the entire body to 'not work properly'.  You can kill the nerve endings from a burn or even callous up your skin to the point where pain cannot be sense from there, but that doesn't prevent you from feeling pain eeverywhere.

http://www.associate..._feel_pain.html

I was slightly wrong, it is an disease and got the wrong way around, my bad. It's when the nerves can't connect with the brain properly.

Psychopaths have plenty of emotions.  The do what they do because they enjoy it.  That's an emotion. 

hmmm probably the wrong analogy, I forgot what they call it, but it's when people do not feel joy, nor sorrow, not depressed or happy, nothing, aboustely nothing but logic of the situation.

To be a cop, you actually have to have a badge and join a police force.  Even if you can imitate them with 100% accuracy, if you aren't officially a member of a police organization, they can arrest you for impersonating a police officer.  No amount of immitation matters without actually being one.

I'm actually enjoying this today myself, as this has been mostly civil.  More than I can say for the other times I've participated in the Geth vs Quarians topics.

True enough, I conceed the police point. I just feel limiting life to "organic" puts limits on our potential. Eventually we will be to the point where we will seeing more and more "cyborgs" around.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 04 juin 2010 - 07:14 .

[Pacifien]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Psychopaths have plenty of emotions.  The do what they do because they enjoy it.  That's an emotion. 

hmmm probably the wrong analogy, I forgot what they call it, but it's when people do not feel joy, nor sorrow, not depressed or happy, nothing, aboustely nothing but logic of the situation.

It's probably a personality disorder like schizoid, but I'm not sure a schizoid personality translates into a completely logical individual.

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

True enough, I conceed the police point. I just feel limiting life to "organic" puts limits on our potential. Eventually we will be to the point where we will seeing more and more "cyborgs" around.

Well technically Shepard is a cyborg.  A cyborg is an integration of man and machine.  However, it is completely impossible to remove the consciousness of an organic brain and put it into a machine.  Even if you remove the brain and manage to get it hooked up to a completely mechanical body.  The brain is still there, and that's essentially what a 'person' is.  You can't 'download' a person into something.  The brain is required.

Which is something even 'true' AI share with organics within the ME universe.  You can't copy an AI from one piece of hardware to another.  You have to actually remove the piece of hardware and install it into something else to move it.  Geth aren't even true AI.  They're just VI's working in parallel.