I'm a little more calm that when I first started in this thread so I'll try and keep myself civil this time around. I'm obviously against the concept of the Geth being called *sentient beings* I view them as highly advanded programming/machines. As I define living creatures as just that living. Accuring in nature, DNA, genetic structure, etc. Also as a intelligent creature on a higher level of that of an animal it should have a defined concept of right and wrong (Even if varies with other species) Or the ability to understand and express emotion.Things the Geth do not have.
If given the parts and the technology anyone in the Mass Effect universe could construct a functional Geth from scratch. We can even rebuild broken and *dead* Geth . The only way for a human to be made is through the process of two other humans. Yes we have the whole concept of test tube babies. Again thats not a *natural* birth however. This applies to just about every other species in the ME Universe that we know of. Asari are kinda odd, but the bounding is still extracting DNA coding from the other party for reproduction. Geth are incapable of reproduction for the species. They are synthetic (Not natural or genuine; artificial or contrived) beings powered by advanded Artifical (Made in imitation of something natural; simulated) Intelligence. Both synthetic and artifical by definition are not natural. So no I cant except it as an equal. I would not put the value of a car or any other piece of hardware over the cost of a human life. Hell, I have a dog thats like part of my family that I would probably put over the value of those things too. Its a living creature with a personality all its own. It can not be replaced. It can not be rebuilt. A Geth can with little to no effort.
Show me a Geth that can honestly show signs of emotion and I might change my stance. Simply having the desire of self-preservation does not make it a living being to me, and certainly not on equal footing for any sort of rights. A fish doesnt want to get eaten by a bigger shark in the ocean. It has a sense of self-preservation. I'm not going to start up a campaign for equal fish rights however to not be eaten by sharks cause humans dont want to be eaten either. To be willing to view them as equals I can only compare them to our own species. You cant say to treat them the same and not compare them the same. Its a contradiction.
To factor in a religious slant for this argument too, the concepts of souls and afterlife etc, only serves to further compound the mess. So I'll avoid that one all together if possible. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If it comes down to sacrificing groups to the Reapers in ME3, the Geth are the first on the chopping block for me. I will not lose any sleep over it, nor would I in real life. Obviously I'm in the minority in this thread, but from the Mass Effect Universe I would appear to be in the majority.
[Poll] Who would you side with in the Quarian/Geth war?
Débuté par
scorptatious
, mai 28 2010 08:46
Retour en haut
#452
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 04:54
Teknor
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Then how is Geth developping high tech without genuine understanding ? Don't tell me they are just replicating organic stuff because they have unique tech like pulse rifles etc. Plus your "natural birth" and "building Geth from the scratch" are total BS which are not based on anything observable.
#453
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 04:57
Andrew_Waltfeld
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[quote]Shandepared wrote...
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I long ago gave up the concept of impossible (And orginality but that's another topic of discussion).[/quote]
Yeah, right on, keep the dream alive! Perhaps one day you'll prove Einstein wrong too! Then we can all say that we were there, we were there when Andrew_Waltfeld was a mere internet genius posting about his coming greatness to the Mass Effect fans back in the old days! [/quote]
Remember where you heard it first. To be honest, it's actually one of my child hood dreams to invent something that everyone uses on an daily basis like cellphones - computers etc. So when I do, I'll drop an line, perhaps sneak an few free models to you guys.
[quote]GothamLord wrote...
I'm a little more calm that when I
first started in this thread so I'll try and keep myself civil this time
around. I'm obviously against the concept of the Geth being called
*sentient beings* I view them as highly advanded programming/machines.
As I define living creatures as just that living. Accuring in nature,
DNA, genetic structure, etc.
[/quote]
True you could use the organic nature of "life" however really, there have been plenty of examples given throughout the topic of where the geth even mimic this basic process. An update of their code is similar to changing an DNA strand. It's really an question if view the geth on an equal or lower pestidal than other organic speices. I personally think that life isn't limited to simply organics.
[quote]
Also as a intelligent creature on a
higher level of that of an animal it should have a defined concept of
right and wrong (Even if varies with other species) Or the ability to
understand and express emotion.Things the Geth do not have.
[/quote]
Actually they Do. While the geth may not have emotions per say, they can "regret" actions like the morning war, talking with legion about it shows the geth later on regretted what happened. Or At least wish an different solution had happened. Also if you tell legion to back down when Tali and legion is having an fight, he willingly to stand down to keep everyone happy.
[quote]
If
given the parts and the technology anyone in the Mass Effect universe
could construct a functional Geth from scratch. We can even rebuild
broken and *dead* Geth . The only way for a human to be made is through
the process of two other humans.
[/quote]
we can repair humans as well and even in the game, you are revived from the "dead".
[quote]
Yes we have the whole concept of test
tube babies. Again thats not a *natural* birth however.
[/quote]
So because they are made in test tubes they are not human or alive? Is the requirement of life being that you have to an natural birth?
[quote]
This applies to
just about every other species in the ME Universe that we know
of. Asari are kinda odd, but the bounding is still extracting
DNA coding from the other party for reproduction. Geth are incapable of
reproduction for the species. They are synthetic (Not natural or
genuine; artificial or contrived) beings powered by advanded Artifical
(Made in imitation of something natural; simulated) Intelligence. [/quote]
Yes and no, Otherwise when an spieces reaches too low of a population to sustain the spieces, they are techinally non-living creatures now when they clearly are still alive, just unable to re-produce with enough genetic diveristy. Another problem is the fact that then if an Spieces becomes sterile and is no longer able to bear children, are they no longer living? (say an even more potent genophage)
The re-production for geth to be honest I dont think is even required and if it must, could be considered to be an "sterile" race, where they cannot have children. Since they can move from platform to platform, or server to server on an much needed basis. Instead of Diverise genetics being an requirement in order to live, an substanal amount of infrastructure is in order to house all the geth.
[quote]
Both
synthetic and artifical by definition are not natural. So no I cant
except it as an equal. I would not put the value of a car or any other
piece of hardware ove the cost of a human life. Hell, I have a dog
thats like part of my family that I would probably put over the value of
those things too.
[/quote]
Synthetic and Artifical is just an way of describing how it is made. We are organic machines anyway and our machines mimic that because that is what we are most famaliar with. You can easily compare humans to the geth if using the right analogies like we are just fleshy machines for example (which we are).
[quote]
Its a living creature with a personality all its
own. It can not be replaced. It can not be rebuilt. A Geth can with
little to no effort.
[/quote]
So legion does not have personality? The geth do have their quirks and an personality all to their own. Legion is more so considering that he is seperated from the geth collective for longer periods of time, and thus has an "distinct" personality seperate from the collective due to his experinces. Also I might add that the geth can and do die. If there is no carriers, servers or other geth nearby, then there is no place for them to pull out before the platform is terminated, thus they "die". A permenent loss of perspective is an bad loss for the geth, considering they lose many perspectives that can not be retrived or rebuilt.
[quote]
Show me a Geth that can honestly show signs
of emotion and I might change my stance.
[/quote]
emotions aren't required for life or sentient life for that matter. Otherwise dogs and so on wouldn't be considered living and sentient creatures.
[quote]
Simply having the desire of
self-preservation does not make it a living being to me, and certainly
not on equal footing for any sort of rights. A fish doesnt want to get
eaten by a bigger shark in the ocean. It has a sense of
self-preservation. I'm not going to start up a campaign for equal fish
rights however to not be eaten by sharks cause humans dont want to be
eaten either.
[/quote]
But you still consider it an living thing no? You forgot to mention that the fish can talk and reason with you as well.
[quote]
To be willing to view them as equals I can only compare
them to our own species. You cant say to treat them the same and not
compare them the same. Its a contradiction.
[/quote]
The only thing you can not apply to them is the narrow definition of "life" that is limited to only organics and most people agree that the definition isn't broad enough to include all forms of life.
[quote]
To factor in a
religious slant for this argument too, the concepts of souls and
afterlife etc, only serves to further compound the mess. So I'll avoid
that one all together if possible. Everyone is entitled to their own
opinion. If it comes down to sacrificing groups to the Reapers in ME3,
the Geth are the first on the chopping block for me. I will not lose
any sleep over it, nor would I in real life. Obviously I'm in the
minority in this thread, but from the Mass Effect Universe I would
appear to be in the majority.
[/quote]
Here here, everyone is indeed entitled to their opinon. I personally enjoy these kindof debates as they are plenty of food for thought especially when obersrving other people debating. The Mass Effect universe has been plagued by A.I's that haven't long to live and been treated crappy, Part of the reason why the geth aren't homoical like they are is due to the fact of their isolationist policy and oberiving how other spieces interact each other. Doing social experiments via the extranet etc. I have an sneaking suspecion the geth know more about us Organics then we do about ourselves.
but either way, I'm not losing sleep over this either.
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I long ago gave up the concept of impossible (And orginality but that's another topic of discussion).[/quote]
Yeah, right on, keep the dream alive! Perhaps one day you'll prove Einstein wrong too! Then we can all say that we were there, we were there when Andrew_Waltfeld was a mere internet genius posting about his coming greatness to the Mass Effect fans back in the old days! [/quote]
Remember where you heard it first. To be honest, it's actually one of my child hood dreams to invent something that everyone uses on an daily basis like cellphones - computers etc. So when I do, I'll drop an line, perhaps sneak an few free models to you guys.
[quote]GothamLord wrote...
I'm a little more calm that when I
first started in this thread so I'll try and keep myself civil this time
around. I'm obviously against the concept of the Geth being called
*sentient beings* I view them as highly advanded programming/machines.
As I define living creatures as just that living. Accuring in nature,
DNA, genetic structure, etc.
[/quote]
True you could use the organic nature of "life" however really, there have been plenty of examples given throughout the topic of where the geth even mimic this basic process. An update of their code is similar to changing an DNA strand. It's really an question if view the geth on an equal or lower pestidal than other organic speices. I personally think that life isn't limited to simply organics.
[quote]
Also as a intelligent creature on a
higher level of that of an animal it should have a defined concept of
right and wrong (Even if varies with other species) Or the ability to
understand and express emotion.Things the Geth do not have.
[/quote]
Actually they Do. While the geth may not have emotions per say, they can "regret" actions like the morning war, talking with legion about it shows the geth later on regretted what happened. Or At least wish an different solution had happened. Also if you tell legion to back down when Tali and legion is having an fight, he willingly to stand down to keep everyone happy.
[quote]
If
given the parts and the technology anyone in the Mass Effect universe
could construct a functional Geth from scratch. We can even rebuild
broken and *dead* Geth . The only way for a human to be made is through
the process of two other humans.
[/quote]
we can repair humans as well and even in the game, you are revived from the "dead".
[quote]
Yes we have the whole concept of test
tube babies. Again thats not a *natural* birth however.
[/quote]
So because they are made in test tubes they are not human or alive? Is the requirement of life being that you have to an natural birth?
[quote]
This applies to
just about every other species in the ME Universe that we know
of. Asari are kinda odd, but the bounding is still extracting
DNA coding from the other party for reproduction. Geth are incapable of
reproduction for the species. They are synthetic (Not natural or
genuine; artificial or contrived) beings powered by advanded Artifical
(Made in imitation of something natural; simulated) Intelligence. [/quote]
Yes and no, Otherwise when an spieces reaches too low of a population to sustain the spieces, they are techinally non-living creatures now when they clearly are still alive, just unable to re-produce with enough genetic diveristy. Another problem is the fact that then if an Spieces becomes sterile and is no longer able to bear children, are they no longer living? (say an even more potent genophage)
The re-production for geth to be honest I dont think is even required and if it must, could be considered to be an "sterile" race, where they cannot have children. Since they can move from platform to platform, or server to server on an much needed basis. Instead of Diverise genetics being an requirement in order to live, an substanal amount of infrastructure is in order to house all the geth.
[quote]
Both
synthetic and artifical by definition are not natural. So no I cant
except it as an equal. I would not put the value of a car or any other
piece of hardware ove the cost of a human life. Hell, I have a dog
thats like part of my family that I would probably put over the value of
those things too.
[/quote]
Synthetic and Artifical is just an way of describing how it is made. We are organic machines anyway and our machines mimic that because that is what we are most famaliar with. You can easily compare humans to the geth if using the right analogies like we are just fleshy machines for example (which we are).
[quote]
Its a living creature with a personality all its
own. It can not be replaced. It can not be rebuilt. A Geth can with
little to no effort.
[/quote]
So legion does not have personality? The geth do have their quirks and an personality all to their own. Legion is more so considering that he is seperated from the geth collective for longer periods of time, and thus has an "distinct" personality seperate from the collective due to his experinces. Also I might add that the geth can and do die. If there is no carriers, servers or other geth nearby, then there is no place for them to pull out before the platform is terminated, thus they "die". A permenent loss of perspective is an bad loss for the geth, considering they lose many perspectives that can not be retrived or rebuilt.
[quote]
Show me a Geth that can honestly show signs
of emotion and I might change my stance.
[/quote]
emotions aren't required for life or sentient life for that matter. Otherwise dogs and so on wouldn't be considered living and sentient creatures.
[quote]
Simply having the desire of
self-preservation does not make it a living being to me, and certainly
not on equal footing for any sort of rights. A fish doesnt want to get
eaten by a bigger shark in the ocean. It has a sense of
self-preservation. I'm not going to start up a campaign for equal fish
rights however to not be eaten by sharks cause humans dont want to be
eaten either.
[/quote]
But you still consider it an living thing no? You forgot to mention that the fish can talk and reason with you as well.
[quote]
To be willing to view them as equals I can only compare
them to our own species. You cant say to treat them the same and not
compare them the same. Its a contradiction.
[/quote]
The only thing you can not apply to them is the narrow definition of "life" that is limited to only organics and most people agree that the definition isn't broad enough to include all forms of life.
[quote]
To factor in a
religious slant for this argument too, the concepts of souls and
afterlife etc, only serves to further compound the mess. So I'll avoid
that one all together if possible. Everyone is entitled to their own
opinion. If it comes down to sacrificing groups to the Reapers in ME3,
the Geth are the first on the chopping block for me. I will not lose
any sleep over it, nor would I in real life. Obviously I'm in the
minority in this thread, but from the Mass Effect Universe I would
appear to be in the majority.
[/quote]
Here here, everyone is indeed entitled to their opinon. I personally enjoy these kindof debates as they are plenty of food for thought especially when obersrving other people debating. The Mass Effect universe has been plagued by A.I's that haven't long to live and been treated crappy, Part of the reason why the geth aren't homoical like they are is due to the fact of their isolationist policy and oberiving how other spieces interact each other. Doing social experiments via the extranet etc. I have an sneaking suspecion the geth know more about us Organics then we do about ourselves.
but either way, I'm not losing sleep over this either.
Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 05 juin 2010 - 05:05 .
#454
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 04:26
moochiphur
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- Members
- 27 messages
Thats a really good question! I have to say that after playing ME2 I'd have to go for the Geth. Ultimately they were slaves and they rose up to fair play to them. Plus i love legion.
#455
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 04:45
Inverness Moon
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- 1 721 messages
You're being narrow-minded if you believe that life can only exist in organic form. And you claim that an intelligent creature should have a defined concept of right and wrong, why exactly? And emotions are completely irrelevant, imho.GothamLord wrote...
I'm a little more calm that when I first started in this thread so I'll try and keep myself civil this time around. I'm obviously against the concept of the Geth being called *sentient beings* I view them as highly advanded programming/machines. As I define living creatures as just that living. Accuring in nature, DNA, genetic structure, etc. Also as a intelligent creature on a higher level of that of an animal it should have a defined concept of right and wrong (Even if varies with other species) Or the ability to understand and express emotion.Things the Geth do not have.
The way I see it, you're trying to say if its not like humans its not alive, which is a rather racist thing to say imho. Legion addresses this in part during his loyalty mission:
"No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthromorphism."
And further more unrelatedly:
"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
Whether humans are created by natural means or unnatural means (like Shepard who was recreated), that does not change whether or not they are human if the body is identical. Whether life is created through natural or artificial means does not determine whether or not they are of equal value, that is determined by their own merits as a sentient being. And saying you would not put the value of a car or something else over human life is misleading, because a car is not a sentient being like the geth. And yes, dogs can be cloned and replaced, it's been done before.If given the parts and the technology anyone in the Mass Effect universe could construct a functional Geth from scratch. We can even rebuild broken and *dead* Geth . The only way for a human to be made is through the process of two other humans. Yes we have the whole concept of test tube babies. Again thats not a *natural* birth however. This applies to just about every other species in the ME Universe that we know of. Asari are kinda odd, but the bounding is still extracting DNA coding from the other party for reproduction. Geth are incapable of reproduction for the species. They are synthetic (Not natural or genuine; artificial or contrived) beings powered by advanded Artifical (Made in imitation of something natural; simulated) Intelligence. Both synthetic and artifical by definition are not natural. So no I cant except it as an equal. I would not put the value of a car or any other piece of hardware over the cost of a human life. Hell, I have a dog thats like part of my family that I would probably put over the value of those things too. Its a living creature with a personality all its own. It can not be replaced. It can not be rebuilt. A Geth can with little to no effort.
As I said before, emotions are irrelevant. Sharks and other fish are not sentient, so that is not relevant either. The geth are not organic, trying to judge them by comparing them to organics is the wrong thing to do.Show me a Geth that can honestly show signs of emotion and I might change my stance. Simply having the desire of self-preservation does not make it a living being to me, and certainly not on equal footing for any sort of rights. A fish doesnt want to get eaten by a bigger shark in the ocean. It has a sense of self-preservation. I'm not going to start up a campaign for equal fish rights however to not be eaten by sharks cause humans dont want to be eaten either. To be willing to view them as equals I can only compare them to our own species. You cant say to treat them the same and not compare them the same. Its a contradiction.
How prevalent your views are in the Mass Effect universe is irrelevant. The majority in that universe think the reapers are a myth. The majority also thinks the quarians are a bunch of vagrants and thieves. Those two beliefs are obviously both wrong according to BioWare.To factor in a religious slant for this argument too, the concepts of souls and afterlife etc, only serves to further compound the mess. So I'll avoid that one all together if possible. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If it comes down to sacrificing groups to the Reapers in ME3, the Geth are the first on the chopping block for me. I will not lose any sleep over it, nor would I in real life. Obviously I'm in the minority in this thread, but from the Mass Effect Universe I would appear to be in the majority.
In my opinion, the geth are a new and unique form of life, even as far as synthetics go. I think they have an interesting future ahead of them and would want to make sure they are not destroyed.
From what I have observed, I would consider a lot of people that argue against the geth to be racist. Some people are racist with those of a different skin color. Some people in the Mass Effect universe are racist against those that are not human. And some more people are racist against those that are not organic. I just view this as different magnitudes of the same thing. Their point of view is based on how geth differ from humans and how that makes them inferior to not have what humans have, rather than focusing on what the geth do have. I'll reiterate what Legion said: No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthromorphism.
Modifié par Inverness Moon, 05 juin 2010 - 04:53 .
#456
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 04:52
tonnactus
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GothamLord wrote...
We can even rebuild broken and *dead* Geth .
And you could clone humans.
#457
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 04:54
Inverness Moon
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Cerberus rebuilt the broken and dead Commander Shepard.tonnactus wrote...
GothamLord wrote...
We can even rebuild broken and *dead* Geth .
And you could clone humans.
#458
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 05:04
Pacifien
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- 11 527 messages
I was going to say Cerberus's rebuild of dead Shepard would be more like a rebuild of a disabled geth, but then I realized this wasn't true at all and tonnactus's comparison to cloning was a little bit closer to the truth. If a single geth had the capabilities of an AI, then yes, the rebuild is like what Cerberus did to Shepard in that you need only install the programming of the "dead" AI into the new platform.
But a single geth doesn't have the capabilities of an AI, it's the amalgam of different geth that create the AI construct. To lose one geth in the collection alters the abilities of that AI in subtle ways. To add one geth to the collection would do the same.
The only geth that works differently is Legion. He's an amalgam of 1,183 programs and demonstrates no ability that I can see in the game of being able to integrate with nearby geth to further his processing power. So long as his programs remain the same, his perspective will remain the same. Unless his hardware can create variations in interpreting the informatin, much as the quantum blue box that EDI uses would be different from another quantum blue box.
Cloning isn't the best analogy, in fact, it's almost like the reverse of what I described. For AI, you have the same programming but different platforms. Cloning is more like the same platform but different programming. Unless someone could refine Okeer's method of imprinting on a fully grown specimen.
All this talk of the rights of an AI and whatnot makes me wonder how those in the debate might view the Ford vs. Huerta situation. Unlike the jumpstart done for Shepard's brain, we have a situation in which a person's brain functioning and decisions were processed through a data storage box.
But a single geth doesn't have the capabilities of an AI, it's the amalgam of different geth that create the AI construct. To lose one geth in the collection alters the abilities of that AI in subtle ways. To add one geth to the collection would do the same.
The only geth that works differently is Legion. He's an amalgam of 1,183 programs and demonstrates no ability that I can see in the game of being able to integrate with nearby geth to further his processing power. So long as his programs remain the same, his perspective will remain the same. Unless his hardware can create variations in interpreting the informatin, much as the quantum blue box that EDI uses would be different from another quantum blue box.
Cloning isn't the best analogy, in fact, it's almost like the reverse of what I described. For AI, you have the same programming but different platforms. Cloning is more like the same platform but different programming. Unless someone could refine Okeer's method of imprinting on a fully grown specimen.
All this talk of the rights of an AI and whatnot makes me wonder how those in the debate might view the Ford vs. Huerta situation. Unlike the jumpstart done for Shepard's brain, we have a situation in which a person's brain functioning and decisions were processed through a data storage box.
Modifié par Pacifien, 05 juin 2010 - 05:10 .
#459
Guest_Jeirt_*
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 05:38
Guest_Jeirt_*
Guest_Jeirt_*
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The war with the geth isn't the quarian's fault. They created the geth as tools to be used, not knowing that their shared intelligence would make them smarter, and ultimately sentient when in groups. You might argue that they should never have experimented with AIs in the first place, but considering how technological the quarian society is, it would have happened sooner or later anyway. The only wrongdoing they committed is overreacting upon the geth's dawning intelligence and curiosity. The perfect solution to this dispute would be peace, which I am for.
However, if I had to pick a side, it would be the geth. As miserable as I'd feel about it, it's the right thing to do. They're fighting for their continued existence, while the quarians' only goal is taking back their homeworld and getting rid of their enviro-suits. As important as this may be to them, I place life* above all else. The geth aren't even hostile, they're staying where they are, observing organics from afar, trying to understand them and their actions. If the quarians became hostile and attacked them, I wouldn't stand for it.
*Even if the geth aren't technically alive. This would be a valid reason to side with the quarians, since they're just trying to take back their homeworld from toasters that became intelligent enough to turn on their masters, so to speak. My stance is very blurry on this. While I also don't consider the geth to be "alive" in our understanding of the word, I do appreciate them as sentient beings, capable of coherent thought.
However, if I had to pick a side, it would be the geth. As miserable as I'd feel about it, it's the right thing to do. They're fighting for their continued existence, while the quarians' only goal is taking back their homeworld and getting rid of their enviro-suits. As important as this may be to them, I place life* above all else. The geth aren't even hostile, they're staying where they are, observing organics from afar, trying to understand them and their actions. If the quarians became hostile and attacked them, I wouldn't stand for it.
*Even if the geth aren't technically alive. This would be a valid reason to side with the quarians, since they're just trying to take back their homeworld from toasters that became intelligent enough to turn on their masters, so to speak. My stance is very blurry on this. While I also don't consider the geth to be "alive" in our understanding of the word, I do appreciate them as sentient beings, capable of coherent thought.
Modifié par Jeirt, 05 juin 2010 - 05:44 .
#460
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 06:08
Vaenier
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Was his mind still capable of preforming complex creative problem solving? Or was it merely providing responces based on his memories?Pacifien wrote...
All this talk of the rights of an AI and whatnot makes me wonder how those in the debate might view the Ford vs. Huerta situation. Unlike the jumpstart done for Shepard's brain, we have a situation in which a person's brain functioning and decisions were processed through a data storage box.
#461
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 06:19
Pacifien
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The quarians actually weren't experimenting with AI. The fact the geth were able to reach AI ability was an unforeseen development as the quarians mounted a large amount of small tweaks to the system. Even the outbreak of war was an unforeseen development, as the quarians thought the geth were only on the verge of AI ability, not actual AIs. Malfunctioning VIs in this case. Malfunctioning VIs that were questioning the concept of a soul.
Picking a side in the war for me is all about circumstances. If I believe what Legion says, the geth have no desire to venture beyond the Veil other than to help combat the Reaper situation that threatens their existence as well. At this point, the geth would only take the offense if they viewed it as a pre-emptive defense, much as salarians are said to do.
However, Legion says whenever the quarians felt there was a chance of victory, they have attacked every time. Which makes me think that the quarians have had their confrontations against the geth after they had fleed their worlds and become wandering refugees. Again, this is me taking Legion at his word, and there are some people who wouldn't be so quick to trust him. Viewing the geth are perfectly capable of deception, I suppose.
Outside of Legion's comments, the quarians have shown an interest in retaking their homeworld from the geth. So it wouldn't surprise me if they took the first step in a war between the two. And I fully agree with Kal'Reegar that the quarians better be damn crafty in how they go about it because they'll get slaughtered in a conventional war.
I don't think war is a likely issue at the moment. For one, you have the option of completely tearing the quarian people apart into different factions. The quarians are in a very vulnerable state as it is, it would be suicide for them to declare war on someone without a united front. And already there are signs that they are beyond uniting as some quarians are actively looking for a new homeworld to colonize.
The only way I can see the quarians succeeding in a war against the geth is if Admiral Xen succeeded in her research to alter geth programming to return them to a serviant role of the quarians. However, she only has access to the heretics for her research, and we don't know how the heretics and true geth have diverged in their development. Also, she only has access to mobile platforms and not the mainframe. She has a considerable task ahead of her and she suffers from overconfidence in herself and underestimation of the geth.
Picking a side in the war for me is all about circumstances. If I believe what Legion says, the geth have no desire to venture beyond the Veil other than to help combat the Reaper situation that threatens their existence as well. At this point, the geth would only take the offense if they viewed it as a pre-emptive defense, much as salarians are said to do.
However, Legion says whenever the quarians felt there was a chance of victory, they have attacked every time. Which makes me think that the quarians have had their confrontations against the geth after they had fleed their worlds and become wandering refugees. Again, this is me taking Legion at his word, and there are some people who wouldn't be so quick to trust him. Viewing the geth are perfectly capable of deception, I suppose.
Outside of Legion's comments, the quarians have shown an interest in retaking their homeworld from the geth. So it wouldn't surprise me if they took the first step in a war between the two. And I fully agree with Kal'Reegar that the quarians better be damn crafty in how they go about it because they'll get slaughtered in a conventional war.
I don't think war is a likely issue at the moment. For one, you have the option of completely tearing the quarian people apart into different factions. The quarians are in a very vulnerable state as it is, it would be suicide for them to declare war on someone without a united front. And already there are signs that they are beyond uniting as some quarians are actively looking for a new homeworld to colonize.
The only way I can see the quarians succeeding in a war against the geth is if Admiral Xen succeeded in her research to alter geth programming to return them to a serviant role of the quarians. However, she only has access to the heretics for her research, and we don't know how the heretics and true geth have diverged in their development. Also, she only has access to mobile platforms and not the mainframe. She has a considerable task ahead of her and she suffers from overconfidence in herself and underestimation of the geth.
#462
Posté 05 juin 2010 - 06:25
Pacifien
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The argument for the defense states Huerta was in full control once his motor functions and memories were transfered to synthetic analogues. It's never clarified if every memory made the transfer or if there was some degradation in the process. I guess the thinking is that if the data storage box has all his memories, all his decisions from the past, then it will interpret his memories and past actions just as his own brain would. Which would mean that a machine is considered to have the same capabilities as a complex organic brain.Vaenier wrote...
Was his mind still capable of preforming complex creative problem solving? Or was it merely providing responces based on his memories?Pacifien wrote...
All this talk of the rights of an AI and whatnot makes me wonder how those in the debate might view the Ford vs. Huerta situation. Unlike the jumpstart done for Shepard's brain, we have a situation in which a person's brain functioning and decisions were processed through a data storage box.
#463
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 05:30
Cpl_Facehugger
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[quote]Shandepared wrote...
No, because dogs don't have thumbs and so aren't nearly as dangerous as armed machines. [/quote]
Okay.
[quote]
...and this wasn't one of those cases.
You also aren't really reading my post. I have said repeatedly that the quarians couldn't know the geth's intentions one way or another, all they could judge their decision on was their capabilities. With that in mind the best choice is to try and neutralize the geth before they get stronger. [/quote]
No, I am reading your post. It's not my problem if you can't see how Geth asking the Quarians if they have souls is an indicator of their intentions.
Seriously, do you have some sort of script set up to just argue for the renegade action no matter what?
[quote]Your industrial base is going to get gutted no matter what because you can't keep these constructs as property anymore.[/quote]
If you follow through with diplomacy, those factories are still available to produce goods and contribute to the economy, they just aren't owned by quarians any more. Which is obviously a much more economically beneficial state than "factories destroyed, most quarians dead."
[quote]No, an extreme outcome would be either peace with the geth or extinction for the quarians. Attacking eliminated the possibility of a peaceful outcome but also mitigated the chances of total extinction.
[/quote]
Except that it didn't mitigate the chances of total extinction. It increased them. Attacking an AI race like that is pretty much the worst thing you can do, since AI can reproduce far faster than organics possibly can without the lead time it takes organics to learn to fight.
By attacking the geth, the quarians locked themselves into a war that they had no hope of winning, unless they could magically recapture or eliminate all the factories capable of producing geth.
[quote]I was hoping somebody would be dumb enough to bring this up just so I could shoot it down. If you tell the geth that you want to work things out peacefully but then start evacuating civilians you are indicating to them that you don't trust them and you are getting prepared for hostile action. They too can't know your intentions for certain, only your capabilities. They'll know enough to know that your dangerous and that if you've gotten your civilians out of the way that you will be more willing and able to commit to war. So, bad move there.
Even a defensive posture can be considered provactive.[/quote]
It should be pretty simple to say "this is a precautionary measure juts in case you turn out to be hostile. If not, there's nothing to worry about."
The geth, being rational entities, would likely understand the logic.
[quote]For the reasons I just explained, yes. I'll repeat it again: you can't afford to hope that they are peaceful and then find out that they aren't. [/quote]
That's paranoid though. They've given you absolutely no reason to believe they're hostile and a reason to believe they're peaceful, since they asked questions and conspicously not made any hostile moves. Rational nations don't leap to war like that. Because war is expensive and damaging. Particularly when fought against an AI race.
[quote]
No, it doesn't tell you anything about their desires. One geth asked questions relating to its existence. That neither proves nor disproves hostile intent. What it does show is developing self-awareness and intelligence and both of those things allow for hostile action.[/quote]
The mere fact that a geth is asking questions rather than picking up arms to kill its quarian masters is a rather good sign. Further, the way the geth work, which the quarians should certainly be aware of given that they programmed them this way, is basically a collective consciousness, with the each individual geth runtime having a vote in the concensus. Ergo, the fact that it's "one" geth asking the question doesn't matter. The quarians just forgot that when you get a critical mass of runtimes communicating, what you get is a dead ringer for sapience.
[quote]What are you gonna do, shoot Sovereign off the Citadel with your pistol? He's already docked to it so he's no longer trying to do anything remotely. Saren's task is finished.[/quote]
Gee, maybe use the control you have from that enormous master control terminal to boot Sovereign from the system?
[quote]Sure, kid, in a few weeks you can totally rebuild civilization. [/quote]
Not a few weeks. Did I say a few weeks? I don't think I did.
[quote]Yeah, that couldn't possible encourage the geth to make a first strike, now could it?[/quote]
Not any more than building warships and weapons would encourage an organic nation to do so.
[quote]
Yes, I've explained that several times. Here's an example from another site:
You have two species that have just made contact.
They each have two options: attack or make peace
The outcomes work out like this:
Race A attacks and Race B makes peace; Race B goes extinct and Race A is safe.
Race A makes peace and Race B attacks; Race A goes extinct and Race B is safe.
Race A attacks and Race B attacks; both are deciminated but both survive.
Race A makes peace and Race B makes peace; both live in peace and everyone wins.
So you see, only by attacking can you prevent the possibility of extinction.[/quote]
Ah, game theory. Totally divorced from the real world and morality as well.
Game theory is far too simplistic to apply to the real world. The fact that you are doing so is rather amusing. Or it would be if it wasn't so sadly naive.
[quote]The risk outweighs the benefits because the risk is EXTINCTION. [/quote]
Don't you get it? The risk of fighting the AI is extinction! Unless you eliminate the lion's share of geth (practically impossible for the situation,) you consign yourself to fighting an enemy who is outright superior to you in nearly relevant field of warfighting!
No, because dogs don't have thumbs and so aren't nearly as dangerous as armed machines. [/quote]
Okay.
[quote]
...and this wasn't one of those cases.
You also aren't really reading my post. I have said repeatedly that the quarians couldn't know the geth's intentions one way or another, all they could judge their decision on was their capabilities. With that in mind the best choice is to try and neutralize the geth before they get stronger. [/quote]
No, I am reading your post. It's not my problem if you can't see how Geth asking the Quarians if they have souls is an indicator of their intentions.
Seriously, do you have some sort of script set up to just argue for the renegade action no matter what?
[quote]Your industrial base is going to get gutted no matter what because you can't keep these constructs as property anymore.[/quote]
If you follow through with diplomacy, those factories are still available to produce goods and contribute to the economy, they just aren't owned by quarians any more. Which is obviously a much more economically beneficial state than "factories destroyed, most quarians dead."
[quote]No, an extreme outcome would be either peace with the geth or extinction for the quarians. Attacking eliminated the possibility of a peaceful outcome but also mitigated the chances of total extinction.
[/quote]
Except that it didn't mitigate the chances of total extinction. It increased them. Attacking an AI race like that is pretty much the worst thing you can do, since AI can reproduce far faster than organics possibly can without the lead time it takes organics to learn to fight.
By attacking the geth, the quarians locked themselves into a war that they had no hope of winning, unless they could magically recapture or eliminate all the factories capable of producing geth.
[quote]I was hoping somebody would be dumb enough to bring this up just so I could shoot it down. If you tell the geth that you want to work things out peacefully but then start evacuating civilians you are indicating to them that you don't trust them and you are getting prepared for hostile action. They too can't know your intentions for certain, only your capabilities. They'll know enough to know that your dangerous and that if you've gotten your civilians out of the way that you will be more willing and able to commit to war. So, bad move there.
Even a defensive posture can be considered provactive.[/quote]
It should be pretty simple to say "this is a precautionary measure juts in case you turn out to be hostile. If not, there's nothing to worry about."
The geth, being rational entities, would likely understand the logic.
[quote]For the reasons I just explained, yes. I'll repeat it again: you can't afford to hope that they are peaceful and then find out that they aren't. [/quote]
That's paranoid though. They've given you absolutely no reason to believe they're hostile and a reason to believe they're peaceful, since they asked questions and conspicously not made any hostile moves. Rational nations don't leap to war like that. Because war is expensive and damaging. Particularly when fought against an AI race.
[quote]
No, it doesn't tell you anything about their desires. One geth asked questions relating to its existence. That neither proves nor disproves hostile intent. What it does show is developing self-awareness and intelligence and both of those things allow for hostile action.[/quote]
The mere fact that a geth is asking questions rather than picking up arms to kill its quarian masters is a rather good sign. Further, the way the geth work, which the quarians should certainly be aware of given that they programmed them this way, is basically a collective consciousness, with the each individual geth runtime having a vote in the concensus. Ergo, the fact that it's "one" geth asking the question doesn't matter. The quarians just forgot that when you get a critical mass of runtimes communicating, what you get is a dead ringer for sapience.
[quote]What are you gonna do, shoot Sovereign off the Citadel with your pistol? He's already docked to it so he's no longer trying to do anything remotely. Saren's task is finished.[/quote]
Gee, maybe use the control you have from that enormous master control terminal to boot Sovereign from the system?
[quote]Sure, kid, in a few weeks you can totally rebuild civilization. [/quote]
Not a few weeks. Did I say a few weeks? I don't think I did.
[quote]Yeah, that couldn't possible encourage the geth to make a first strike, now could it?[/quote]
Not any more than building warships and weapons would encourage an organic nation to do so.
[quote]
Yes, I've explained that several times. Here's an example from another site:
You have two species that have just made contact.
They each have two options: attack or make peace
The outcomes work out like this:
Race A attacks and Race B makes peace; Race B goes extinct and Race A is safe.
Race A makes peace and Race B attacks; Race A goes extinct and Race B is safe.
Race A attacks and Race B attacks; both are deciminated but both survive.
Race A makes peace and Race B makes peace; both live in peace and everyone wins.
So you see, only by attacking can you prevent the possibility of extinction.[/quote]
Ah, game theory. Totally divorced from the real world and morality as well.
Game theory is far too simplistic to apply to the real world. The fact that you are doing so is rather amusing. Or it would be if it wasn't so sadly naive.
[quote]The risk outweighs the benefits because the risk is EXTINCTION. [/quote]
Don't you get it? The risk of fighting the AI is extinction! Unless you eliminate the lion's share of geth (practically impossible for the situation,) you consign yourself to fighting an enemy who is outright superior to you in nearly relevant field of warfighting!
Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 06 juin 2010 - 05:44 .
#464
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 06:02
Guest_Shandepared_*
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Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
If you follow through with diplomacy, those factories are still available to produce goods and contribute to the economy, they just aren't owned by quarians any more.
You can't replace machines with organic labor overnight.
Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
Except that it didn't mitigate the chances of total extinction. It increased them.
No, it mitigated them. If the quarians had been attacked first whilst attempting peace then it is likely far fewer of them would have survived. I've explained this countless times, I think you're just too simple-minded to understand it. Not that it is terribly complicated, mind you.
Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
It should be pretty simple to say "this is a precautionary measure juts in case you turn out to be hostile. If not, there's nothing to worry about."
You can tell them anything you want but it is your actions they are going to be judging. I can build a nuclear reactor and tell everybody that it is for peaceful purposes but that won't convince a lot of people.
Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
That's paranoid though.
You can't afford not to be when the survival of your civilization and species is in question.
Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
No, it doesn't tell you anything about their desires. One geth asked questions relating to its existence. That neither The mere fact that a geth is asking questions rather than picking up arms to kill its quarian masters is a rather good sign.
No, the fact that this geth is becoming self-aware is an extremely bad sign because you never designed it to be able to do that. It means you have lost control of that geth. Where one has developed awareness so too will others.
Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
Not any more than building warships and weapons would encourage an organic nation to do so.
Oh this is priceless. I would fling another insult at you here but something tells me this deserves a witty remark. I can't think up one at the moment so I'll just leave it at that.
Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
Ah, game theory. Totally divorced from the real world and morality as well.
Ironic that you'd call me naive whilst criticizing game theory for not being moral enough. Do you care to actually explain why it doesn't work? If you can make a good argument you might force a concession out of me. I'm betting you can't do it though.
Cpl_Facehugger wrote...
Don't you get it? The risk of fighting the AI is extinction!
Yes it is, but the chances of extinction are less than if you do nothing and allow the geth to make the first move.
#465
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 06:14
Inquisitor Recon
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This ridiculous conversation among geth and robot sympathizers has made me determined to exterminate the geth from the face of the galaxy. I'll save legion for last however. Perhaps I can reprogram simply because he does that cool head flap thing.
#466
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 06:24
Guest_Shandepared_*
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ReconTeam wrote...
This ridiculous conversation among geth and robot sympathizers has made me determined to exterminate the geth from the face of the galaxy. I'll save legion for last however. Perhaps I can reprogram simply because he does that cool head flap thing.
You have my support.
#467
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 07:17
Vaenier
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After participating in this thread for a bit, I have come to the conclusion that is it impossible to use logic to reason with a person's paranoia. Racism is immune to morality arguments. And the human race would most likely shoot first and ask question later. I feel sad now. -.=.-
#468
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 07:20
Guest_Shandepared_*
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Vaenier wrote...
I feel sad now. -.=.-
It is gratifying to hear that. (so to speak)
#469
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 07:22
Sereaph502
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IF they go to war? probably the quarians.
However, that's an IF, because according to legion, the geth have kept the Quarian homeworld nice and tidy, and are waiting for them to come back. So because of that, I can't see a war happening unless the Quarians decide to go in there guns blazing. I'm sure Shepard will figure something out.
Tali and Legion are two of my most favorite characters though, so it was hard for me to decide one over the other.
However, that's an IF, because according to legion, the geth have kept the Quarian homeworld nice and tidy, and are waiting for them to come back. So because of that, I can't see a war happening unless the Quarians decide to go in there guns blazing. I'm sure Shepard will figure something out.
Tali and Legion are two of my most favorite characters though, so it was hard for me to decide one over the other.
#470
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 07:36
Inverness Moon
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Why is that? I think you'd be included in the racist bucket, and if he doesn't I do.Shandepared wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
I feel sad now. -.=.-
It is gratifying to hear that. (so to speak)
Though I am sad that this all boils down to racism basically.
Modifié par Inverness Moon, 06 juin 2010 - 07:36 .
#471
Guest_Shandepared_*
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 07:52
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Inverness Moon wrote...
Though I am sad that this all boils down to racism basically.
I'm sad that you think that. Let's bond over it.
#472
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 10:33
Inverness Moon
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Give Sea-Bond a try.Shandepared wrote...
Inverness Moon wrote...
Though I am sad that this all boils down to racism basically.
I'm sad that you think that. Let's bond over it.
#473
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 11:03
ShamieGTX
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Comrade Bork wrote...
No middle ground? Why can't we negotiate peace? I thought I read somewhere that the Quarian homeworld is relatively unchanged, and that the Quarians could readjust easily. Why don't they enter a partnership with the Geth? Quarians farm the planet, do whatever it is they do, and Geth help rebuild/defend. Then when reconstruction is over, the two work as economic partners. Quarians and Geth combined would create some of the best tech in the known universe. Then grant the Geth and the Quarians a joint-embassy on the Citadel.
Legion himself said they Keep the Quarian Homeworld at peak condition for there Creators, and that It is possible to make peace, since the True Geth have no intention of wiping out the quarians that the only reason they went to war was because they defended themselves, in the end it was quarian stupidity that landed them where they are now, So Paragon or Not My main Shepard is going to Side with My good ol' pal Legion, my secondary replays will go for quarians just to see the outcome
#474
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 11:53
TheAzureVanguard
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Tali and Legion are 2 of my faves so its hard to decide.
Ultimately I'd probably want the Quarians to win IF one group had to be totally wiped out and the other live.
However the best scenario would be for the Quarians to win back their planets. The Geth to recognize their losses and move.
The Geth may be AI but they are still life....so they have to be respected.
Ultimately I'd probably want the Quarians to win IF one group had to be totally wiped out and the other live.
However the best scenario would be for the Quarians to win back their planets. The Geth to recognize their losses and move.
The Geth may be AI but they are still life....so they have to be respected.
#475
Posté 06 juin 2010 - 11:56
Nightwriter
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The geth can't feel pain. The geth have no children. You won't find a recording of, "Be good for daddy! Mommy loves you very much!" on a geth ship. When geth are killed it will not send the family of said geth reeling in broken waves of grief. There will never be little innocent baby geth waiting for daddy geth to come home from the war and finding out that time will never come.
The geth can lose millions of platforms, and it would mean nothing. What would it mean to lose millions of quarians?
But the geth are sentient, and I believe they are a form of life. Life is to be valued, and I do value the geth. I don't think they did anything wrong. It's just that there are more vulnerable forms of life, and there are less vulnerable forms of life, and quarians are more vulnerable. Thus I feel they are to be protected more, just because of what they have to lose. Their entire culture is at risk of annihilation here if they go to war; the geth's is not.
The geth can lose millions of platforms, and it would mean nothing. What would it mean to lose millions of quarians?
But the geth are sentient, and I believe they are a form of life. Life is to be valued, and I do value the geth. I don't think they did anything wrong. It's just that there are more vulnerable forms of life, and there are less vulnerable forms of life, and quarians are more vulnerable. Thus I feel they are to be protected more, just because of what they have to lose. Their entire culture is at risk of annihilation here if they go to war; the geth's is not.
Modifié par Nightwriter, 06 juin 2010 - 11:56 .
