752 réponses à ce sujet

[ObserverStatus]

Shandepared wrote...

Gee, who might be at fault here? It couldn't possibly be the geth who secluded themselves behind the Veil and murdered any peaceful ambassadors sent to establish contact with them.

They've done quite a lot to earn that distrust, resentment, and misunderstanding.

Can you give an example of this happening?

Modifié par bobobo878, 07 juin 2010 - 05:43 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Gee, who might be at fault here? It couldn't possibly be the geth who secluded themselves behind the Veil and murdered any peaceful ambassadors sent to establish contact with them.

They've done quite a lot to earn that distrust, resentment, and misunderstanding.

So let me get this straight. The geth are evil and to blame for everything because they peacefully secluded themselves.

The bastards.

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Gee, who might be at fault here? It couldn't possibly be the geth who secluded themselves behind the Veil and murdered any peaceful ambassadors sent to establish contact with them.

They've done quite a lot to earn that distrust, resentment, and misunderstanding.

So let me get this straight. The geth are evil and to blame for everything because they peacefully secluded themselves.

The bastards.

Randomly attacking people who go into their character does not make their seclusion peaceful. And they actively hunted the Quarians off of their colonies at the end of the war. Both the Geth and the Quarians are at fault here. They both were pretty damn close to genocide. The Geth killed women and children.

[ObserverStatus]

Nizzemancer wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

The zerg swarm because nobody can survive it.

*cough*Raynor*cough*Fenix*cough*protossmissionsinthebroodwarcampaign*cough*

We'll see...

What? Fenix didn't survive, in "true colors" Kerrigan ripped him a new one,  and Raynor is dead on the inside.

[Collider]

Oops. Wrong thread!

Modifié par Collider, 07 juin 2010 - 06:00 .

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

The Quarians only knew of a few models who were sapient. That does not fairly qualify as genocide.

Are you certain? Where is this stated?

When the quarians tried to destroy the geth, the entire geth population rose up en masse, suggesting it was not only a few models that had become sentient, but all of them.

Collider wrote...

Randomly attacking people who go into their character does not make their seclusion peaceful. And they actively hunted the Quarians off of their colonies at the end of the war. Both the Geth and the Quarians are at fault here. They both were pretty damn close to genocide. The Geth killed women and children.

Their character?

Anyway, Haestrom was just beyond the Perseus Veil, just on the edge of geth space, and it was swarming with heretic geth. How do you know it hasn't been the heretic geth waiting there abducting or killing people all this time?

Also, I think we all know war has a way of making us lose sight of things. We have done awful things to our fellow human beings ourselves during war, just because the hostility makes us start seeing them as only "the enemy". This goes for both the quarians and the geth. You're right, they're both at fault.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 07 juin 2010 - 06:08 .

[ObserverStatus]

Collider wrote...

The Quarians only knew of a few models who were sapient. That does not fairly qualify as genocide.

A few models could be thousands of geth.

[Collider]

bobobo878 wrote...

Collider wrote...

The Quarians only knew of a few models who were sapient. That does not fairly qualify as genocide.

A few models could be thousands of geth.

Model as in individual geth bodies.

[ObserverStatus]

I'll admit that I haven't read Revelation, but so far this talk about the Geth killing anyone who enters their territory doesn't make them sound any worse than the Turians.

[ObserverStatus]

Collider wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Collider wrote...

The Quarians only knew of a few models who were sapient. That does not fairly qualify as genocide.

A few models could be thousands of geth.

Model as in individual geth bodies.

Yes, each body contains many geth.

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...

Collider wrote...

The Quarians only knew of a few models who were sapient. That does not fairly qualify as genocide.

Are you certain? Where is this stated?

When the quarians tried to destroy the geth, the entire geth population rose up en masse, suggesting it was not only a few models that had become sentient, but all of them.

It's stated in the codex and Tali also mentions it. My point was that the Quarians only knew of a few models. The fact that the Geth developed sapience was something they did not expect in the first place, after all.

Collider wrote...
Their character?

Oops. I meant territory.

Anyway, Haestrom was just beyond the Perseus Veil, just on the edge of geth space, and it was swarming with heretic geth. How do you know it hasn't been the heretic geth waiting there abducting or killing people all this time?

It wasn't abduction. The True Geth attacked whomever came into their territory. Do you really think there would be no communication at all between Geth and Organics if the Geth just let organics waltz into their territory? Considering the Geth response to the Quarians, I am not surprised at all that they just attack anyone who goes into their turf. They basically just want to left alone for the most part - Legion was the one and only attempt at communication that the Geth had. And even then, the Geth never attempted to have peace or negotiation with the organics. They just slaughter everyone who goes near them.

Also, I think we all know war has a way of making us lose sight of things. We have done awful things to our fellow human beings ourselves during war, just because the hostility makes us start seeing them as only "the enemy". This goes for both the quarians and the geth. You're right, they're both at fault.

I think both of them acted in an incorrect manner. The Quarians should have contacted the Council or considered other options. The Geth shouldn't have killed innocents, including children (nearly all Quarians died). And they both should have tried to negotiate and make peace, but they didn't.

Modifié par Collider, 07 juin 2010 - 06:18 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Murdering ambassadors =/= peaceful.

What I said though was that they only have themselves to blame for the amount of distrust and hostility they encounter in the galaxy. The Council took their side during the Morning War. The geth have had every opportunity to join with or at least exist on peaceful terms with the rest of the galaxy. They've chosen not to.

The Council refused to help the quarians. That is not the same thing. I don't believe for a second the Council would've actually helped the geth with the war. All they did was leave the quarians to their fate.

And I find it takes a certain lack of reasonable understanding to say it's the geth fault they didn't come to the Council. Do you honestly think that option would occur to them? It was called the Morning War (which was sad, btw).

The dawn of their sentience and the lesson that organics are hostile literally happened simultaneously. They wouldn't want to seek aid from more organics. Even so, do you think they could understand the concept of asking for help? Of political interaction?

[Collider]

bobobo878 wrote...

Collider wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Collider wrote...

The Quarians only knew of a few models who were sapient. That does not fairly qualify as genocide.

A few models could be thousands of geth.

Model as in individual geth bodies.

Yes, each body contains many geth.

The Geth are programs. They are not comparable to individual organics. The fact that there are heretics among the Geth mean that not all of the Geth were the same. Only a few geth bodies (for example, random Geth trooper #123112) exhibited sapience. The rest didn't.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

It's stated in the codex and Tali also mentions it. My point was that the Quarians only knew of a few models. The fact that the Geth developed sapience was something they did not expect in the first place, after all.

Well I suppose if it was only a few models they intended to destroy (what Codex entry is that, btw?) then the magnitude of the ethical crime is considerably lesser.

Still, they did try to kill sentient beings. And once they had discovered all the geth were sentient, they continued to try and kill them. I can certainly understand why. Their first move was made out of fear, but it triggered a huge revolt that blew up in their face, and in a panic all out war was triggered.

Collider wrote...

It wasn't abduction. The True Geth attacked whomever came into their territory. Do you really think there would be no communication at all between Geth and Organics if the Geth just let organics waltz into their territory? Considering the Geth response to the Quarians, I am not surprised at all that they just attack anyone who goes into their turf. They basically just want to left alone for the most part - Legion was the one and only attempt at communication that the Geth had. And even then, the Geth never attempted to have peace or negotiation with the organics. They just slaughter everyone who goes near them.

I can understand why they'd do it, too. Sometimes we act like it's only inorganic life that kills those who enter their territory.

Just like organics have no reason to think the geth are anything but hostile, I'm sure the geth have no reason to think organics are anything but hostile. So why shouldn't they attack anyone they see?

Misunderstanding on both sides.

[ObserverStatus]

Shandepared wrote...

gmartin40 wrote...
Those machines don't have A.I. and they don't feel like the Geth do.

That's completely irrelevent. You can't commit genocide against a machine, no matter how sophisticated, for the reasons I specified.

And what reasons are those?  I haven't read all your posts, but so far I haven't read any reason for machines like the geth no being alive apart from them being machines.

Modifié par bobobo878, 07 juin 2010 - 06:39 .

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...

Collider wrote...

It's stated in the codex and Tali also mentions it. My point was that the Quarians only knew of a few models. The fact that the Geth developed sapience was something they did not expect in the first place, after all.

Well I suppose if it was only a few models they intended to destroy (what Codex entry is that, btw?) then the magnitude of the ethical crime is considerably lesser.

It should be one of the Quarian or Geth codex entries. But it's also on the Mass Effect wiki. The geth destroy whatever foreign ship come into their territory, no negotiation whatsoever.

Still, they did try to kill sentient beings.

Not killing. Shutting them down. You can reboot machines that you shut down. Just like your computer.

And once they had discovered all the geth were sentient, they continued to try and kill them.

That's false. They only knew of a few models when they tried to shut them down. And I believe the word you're looking for is sapient.

Collider wrote...
I can understand why they'd do it, too. Sometimes we act like it's only inorganic life that kills those who enter their territory.

Not really an excuse. The Geth are intelligent enough to open channels with the ships coming in and just tell them to go away.

Just like organics have no reason to think the geth are anything but hostile, I'm sure the geth have no reason to think organics are anything but hostile. So why shouldn't they attack anyone they see?

Misunderstanding on both sides.

Misunderstanding is essentially the root of the problem. I can see why the Quarians hate the geth - the Geth are basically the T80s (or whatever, I only have a basic knowledge of the terminator series) who kill all organics on sight to them.

That's the only interaction the Quarians have had with the Geth (after they became sapient) - so it's very easy for them to believe that the Geth are programmed to be hostile towards organics in general. On the other side, the Geth's interaction with organics has only been violent (admittedly, this is partly the Geth's fault when they kill ambassadors and innocents). In other words, neither side knows that the other isn't bloodthirsty.

Modifié par Collider, 07 juin 2010 - 06:40 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Shandepared wrote...

gmartin40 wrote...

Those machines don't have A.I. and they don't feel like the Geth do.

That's completely irrelevent. You can't commit genocide against a machine, no matter how sophisticated, for the reasons I specified.

Hmm, modern definitions of genocide preclude sentient machines (because we don't have any yet).

You are right, but only because our definition of genocide doesn't handle a nonexistent hypothetical.

[ObserverStatus]

megatron999 wrote...

After carefully thinking about it I would probably choose the Quarrians. The reasno for this is
1. Geth are machine based and could be "hacked" by Reapers and used against you
2. Tali is cute

Although Legion is Cool I have more loyalty to the Quarrians then the Geth as they keep on trying to kill me!!

How do you know? You've never seen her face.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

It should be one of the Quarian or Geth codex entries. But it's also on the Mass Effect wiki. The geth destroy whatever foreign ship come into their territory, no negotiation whatsoever.

I was not asking for where it says that the geth kill anyone who ventures into their territory, though. I was asking where it says that when the quarians tried to wipe them out they only knew a few models were sentient.

Collider wrote...

Not killing. Shutting them down. You can reboot machines that you shut down. Just like your computer.

The entire game has consistently played out like the quarians intended to completely wipe them out. From Mass Effect Wiki:

"When the geth became sentient and began to question their masters, the
quarians attempted to exterminate them."

Exterminate. That's a pretty clear word, Collider. Another entry uses the word destroy. You tell me.

Collider wrote...

That's false. They only knew of a few models when they tried to shut them down. And I believe the word you're looking for is sapient.

See the above Wiki quote. They did become sentient.

And I wasn't referring to when they tried to shut them down. I mean, first they tried to shut them down, thinking it was only a few. Then the whole geth race revolted and they realized it was way more than a few. Despite this they still proceeded to fight a long and nasty war, continuing to kill geth even though they knew now they were all sentient and they were killing sentient beings.

Though I can understand why, since they were already taking losses on their side.

Collider wrote...

Not really an excuse. The Geth are intelligent enough to open channels with the ships coming in and just tell them to go away.

Lol. It's not an excuse for us either and we still do it.

The geth do what they think they need to in order to protect themselves and their territory. What they do is wrong, but the paranoia is not unearned. Just like it's not unearned for me if I choose to sink a slug into the first geth I see without trying to talk to it first.

Collider wrote...

Misunderstanding is essentially the root of the problem. I can see why the Quarians hate the geth - the Geth are basically the T80s (or whatever, I only have a basic knowledge of the terminator series) who kill all organics on sight to them.

That's the only interaction the Quarians have had with the Geth (after they became sapient) - so it's very easy for them to believe that the Geth are programmed to be hostile towards organics in general. On the other side, the Geth's interaction with organics has only been violent (admittedly, this is partly the Geth's fault when they kill ambassadors and innocents). In other words, neither side knows that the other isn't bloodthirsty.

What's this ambassador thing I keep hearing about?