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[Poll] Who would you side with in the Quarian/Geth war?


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#551
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Vaenier wrote...

You cant call them a race and then say they are not alive.


It is a term of convenience. What else am I supposed to call them when I'm refering to the geth in Mass Effect?

They're cool characters? Well they're not characters really...

They were certainly cool enemies, but they aren't really enemies anymore...

They're neat constructs? That just sounds awkward.

The quarians are a race, the turians are a race, the asari are a race, and the geth basically represent a race too except they are machines so really they're a... I don't know, but I just call them a race.

#552
Inverness Moon

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A lot of the crap against the geth is based on the belief that synthetics are inferior to organics (racism), etc.

Some people are pretty arrogant--imho--to call the geth inferior when they do not even understand their own existence. As Legion said, we're plagued by questions of existence because we do not understand ourselves.

Shandepared wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

You cant call them a race and then say they are not alive.


It is a term of convenience. What else am I supposed to call them when I'm refering to the geth in Mass Effect?

They're cool characters? Well they're not characters really...

They were certainly cool enemies, but they aren't really enemies anymore...

They're neat constructs? That just sounds awkward.

The quarians are a race, the turians are a race, the asari are a race, and the geth basically represent a race too except they are machines so really they're a... I don't know, but I just call them a race.

BioWare calls them a race too, so I guess that is settled.

#553
Nightwriter

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Pacifien wrote...

So who here would pick a side based on the circumstances that started the war?


Not me.

The geth and the quarians are stuck in the past when they need to be looking at the future. I think the same goes for a lot of people here.

The Reapers make our differences utterly insignificant. We are all about to die as one. We should fight for the right to exist as one.

#554
Andrew_Waltfeld

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Nightwriter wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

just to throw in my own obersevation, the geth wouldn't like losing programs, losing programs means less brain power for them, less perspectives and opinons. It would be like - It would be like if All the european countries just simply vanished. The geth would lose too many perspectives, it would slow them down, and they will have to cope with it. We humans hate each most others guts, but we also care in a limited sense for each other, if the european countries suddenly vanished, we would be. WTH? did they die? did they leave the collective? if they died, why? Did someone do it? If so, who did it? Will they do it to us? IF they will not do it to us, why did they do it the europeans? Should we avenge the loss of perspectives and opinons?

The geth culture is in risk of annihilation as well considering this. Their culture is their collective nature of sharing their opinons, it's like big-*** forum where they debate, and form opinons on many inputs and views like we are doing right now discussing this issue. Of course this happens at all FTL speeds for them, but yes. They are a nation unto themselves and operate as such, each with it's own opinon and views on everything.

Just my thoughts on that.


Hmm. I admit ignorance as to the specifics of what is contained in a single geth. I was under the impression each geth is a bit like a terminal, impersonal, a mobile platform tapped into the greater geth network. And every program they have could be housed in their Dyson Sphere.

Still - the geth population is infinitely greater than the quarian population. Legion gives us an idea as to its size. If the geth suffered the loss of 17 million it would hardly matter. If the quarians lost that many they'd be wiped out. And the geth can repopulate quicker.


"One death is an tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

The loss of 17 million geth is equally tragic, for the quarians it will mean extinction yes, but for the geth, it would still hurt just as much.

Just another obersvation -

The loss of 17 million would be like if New York City  (or an combination of a few major cities) vanished under an nuclear bomb(s), or an comet/asteriod impact(s). It would still impact in an similar way to the geth, perhaps for different reasons, but I can guantee you this - the geth aren't going to like whoever killed 17 millon geth and mostly likely will attempt to kill them. They aren't going to act Meh, I lost 17 million o well. We lost more people in the WTC then at pearl harbor and it turned an fairly "peace not war" nation into an blood thristy nation for almost an year hunting down the btards and the group they were affiated with and we're still dealing with the aftereffects of that bloody thirstyness.

If your in an large group, you operate within that group despite not knowing everyone (say an job at an corporation) and then suddenly someone whacks 17 people in that group, I can almost gauntee you, that group is going to be mighty ****ed. It's not just for the fact the group lost 17 people that they may or may not knew, it's the fact that even though some people in the group hated them, they are STILL part of the group, and will react to the threat because 17 of that group fell.

It's like... if someone dies in your family, you didn't really know them, didn't really hang out with them, barely talked to them, your more than likely to still go to the furneral. Why? Because they were family, wether you knew them, or you hate them, most people will still show up to it because they were still apart of the family and if someone killed said family member, most famailies will hate that person's guts.

Because of the geth and their collectiveness, you need to apply group mentality instead of an single person. At least that is another obersvation of mine.

=========



Shandepared wrote...

There is no such thing as a geth
civilian, there is no such thing as genocide against a machine. The
value of a geth program will never equal the value of a quarian life or
any organic life. You can destroy all the geth and delete all their
programs and as long as you have their code saved somewhere you could
easily bring them back with no harm done. You can't do that with a
quarian.

I don't see the war as equal because it is not equal.
The quarians did nothing wrong and the geth are dangerous rogue A.I. .


I can bring back almost every single quarian or organic life that died now, thanks to Cerbersus, but hey, thanks to their research, we can now bring back the geth from the dead, abiet at an 4 billion credit cost per life. Still feasbile.

With that response done I am sure we can reasonably say that neither
quarians nor geth are coming out squeeky clean. Regardless of your
views.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 07 juin 2010 - 04:38 .


#555
onelifecrisis

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Nightwriter wrote...

I think the same goes for a lot of people here.


People "here" on the forum are stuck in reality's past? Or stuck in the game's past? Or people "here" in the game are stuck in the game's past? Or... people here in the game are stuck in the forum's past? No, wait... argghh... mind=blown.

On topic:
Forgetting about the reapers for a minute, I'd not side with either of them. In some hypothetical scenario where I was forced to pick a side, I'd side with the Geth. Tali will forgive me. Probably.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 07 juin 2010 - 04:55 .


#556
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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

I can bring back almost every single quarian or organic life that died now, thanks to Cerbersus, but hey, thanks to their research, we can now bring back the geth from the dead, abiet at an 4 billion credit cost per life. Still feasbile.

 
Let's see, 4 billion times seventeen-million = actually I'm not going to attempt that.

Not to mention that depending on how a quarian is 'kille'd you may NOT be able to bring them back. Shepard was quite lucky to have his brain intact.

For a geth it is simple though: upload a copy to a database. You can even take the code and print it out on paper. You can duplicate it quickly and easily. All you need to ressurect the geth is a computer for it to inhabit.

They're not the same, not at all. You can't duplicate a quarian.

#557
Teknor

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Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

I can bring back almost every single quarian or organic life that died now, thanks to Cerbersus, but hey, thanks to their research, we can now bring back the geth from the dead, abiet at an 4 billion credit cost per life. Still feasbile.

 
Let's see, 4 billion times seventeen-million = actually I'm not going to attempt that.

Not to mention that depending on how a quarian is 'kille'd you may NOT be able to bring them back. Shepard was quite lucky to have his brain intact.

For a geth it is simple though: upload a copy to a database. You can even take the code and print it out on paper. You can duplicate it quickly and easily. All you need to ressurect the geth is a computer for it to inhabit.

They're not the same, not at all. You can't duplicate a quarian.


If you have perfect data about quarian's neurological pattern and brain structure you can perfectly replicate a quarian. It's not impossible. So a quarian is just another machine just like geth with different configuration and hardware.

#558
Pacifien

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Not entirely sure you could even bring the quarian dead back to life if we're talking deaths in the thousands or millions. Shepard took 4 billion credits and two years, and apparently there were some close calls where the whole project could have failed.

Geth do have backups of their programs, but you'd have to wonder if the quarians would ever allow a geth an opportunity to reboot itself into a new platform. It's not enough to defeat the geth on their homeworld, they'd have to make sure the geth don't have the means to come back.

#559
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Teknor wrote...

If you have perfect data about quarian's neurological pattern and brain structure you can perfectly replicate a quarian. It's not impossible. So a quarian is just another machine just like geth with different configuration and hardware.


Explain this pseudo-science to me.

#560
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Shandepared wrote...

Teknor wrote...

If you have perfect data about quarian's neurological pattern and brain structure you can perfectly replicate a quarian. It's not impossible. So a quarian is just another machine just like geth with different configuration and hardware.


Explain this pseudo-science to me.


There is nothing pseudo about it. It's theoratically possible. You construct it accordingly and voila you got your quarian back. 

#561
Pacifien

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I agree that it's theoretically possible if one had a very thorough understanding of how a brain is mapped. It's not enough that Cerberus jumped started Shepard's brain, the Illusive Man had real concern in altering the brain in any fashion (hence the lack of control chip) because to do so could possibly change Shepard's thought patterns. So there is some knowledge of how brains are mapped, but to the degree that you can reconstruct a brain from scratch based on a neurological pattern and brain structure?

#562
Inverness Moon

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I have no doubt that organics could be copied just as the geth are. It's just more difficult because the geth are software-only, but organics are a combination of hardware and software, messily constructed to boot, so it would be quite the chore to get everything in the right place. Of course I'm talking about copying the memories and stuff along with the body. It is relatively easy to clone a body.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 07 juin 2010 - 05:33 .


#563
Teknor

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I think they have that knowledge because Shep's brain can't be intact after that incident. Neurons die very quickly without blood flow. They had to regrow it from scratch.

#564
Inverness Moon

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Teknor wrote...

I think they have that knowledge because Shep's brain can't be intact after that incident. Neurons die very quickly without blood flow. They had to regrow it from scratch.

It wasn't really explained in ME2 how much of Shepard is synthetic now, so I'm wondering if that will even come up in ME3 and if it is important.

#565
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Deleted.

Modifié par Shandepared, 07 juin 2010 - 05:41 .


#566
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Inverness Moon wrote...

It wasn't really explained in ME2 how much of Shepard is synthetic now, so I'm wondering if that will even come up in ME3 and if it is important.


It was magic so don't expect a rational explanation.

Inverness Moon wrote...

I have no doubt that organics could be copied just as the geth are.


I have no doubt that you really believe that, I also have no doubt that you've got no clue what you're talking about.

Teknor wrote...

There is nothing pseudo about it. It's theoratically possible. You construct it accordingly and voila you got your quarian back. 


How do you know exactly how to put things together? You need to know the location of every single neuron before the quarian, human, batarian, whatever, gets killed. In such case you're simply repairing the damage done, you're not creating a new one or even duplicating it.

With the geth there's no work involved: copy-paste the code and you've got another. You can't copy-paste the quarian.

This is all moot though because we don't even know exactly what a memory IS in physical terms.

In any cae, it's interesting to watch you all inadvertently justify genocide if only to try and prove to me that organic lives are as worthless as synthetic "lives".

Modifié par Shandepared, 07 juin 2010 - 05:46 .


#567
Teknor

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If you know how to repair a machine whole, you can rebuild it with given resources. Plus sometimes repairing is more difficult than creating a new.

#568
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Teknor wrote...

If you know how to repair a machine whole, you can rebuild it with given resources. Plus sometimes repairing is more difficult than creating a new.


True, now perhaps you'd like to make a statement that has an actual point behind it which supports your position in this argument?

#569
ShamieGTX

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i will say it again, I Support the Geth, Quarians only got what they got because they got all paranoid the geth got sentient, they all overreacted "ZOMG! ITz Alived! Itz QUESTIONinz Watz Itz Does! KILL IT KILL IT KILLZ IT!" the Geth reacted by defending themselves, so in my opinion the quarians can stay a bunch of nomads, look for another planet or w.e if they do think going into war against the Geth is good, they can be ready to have my shepard's boot up there ass, even if it means killing Tali too...

#570
Pacifien

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In order for Cerberus to revive Shepard, they should need to know how Shepard's brain reacted before death. This is technology that we in the real world in no way have the capability of achieving at the moment, and all research on the brain is just to get even the most rudimentary understanding of how it works. You can look at an MRI of someone playing the violin, get an idea of what part of the brain usually activates when that person is playing. But then you get a violin player who has suffered brain damage in that portion of the brain, but over time, rediscovers that ability to play again. That's how difficult it is to understand the human brain, it has the ability to redirect itself to use other portions of itself when there is damage. But then again, there is some brain damage that no amount of redirection repairs.

The brain is a series of neurons firing in some manner that evolves over time. This is why people say a brain is just a biological computer. It's just electrons firing in a specific pattern leading a human being to touch his finger to his nose. Or create a pizza. Or organize a massive defense against the Reaper threat.

Theoretically, an advanced enough civilization could know the intricate designs of a brain to the point where they can recreate it. Does such a civilization exist in the Mass Effect universe? Not sure, but Cerberus comes damn close just getting Shepard's brain working again.

That's not to say that recreating a brain is as easy as rebooting a program from a backup. So no, I don't think the annhilation of the quarian species is on the same scale as doing so with the geth. However, the geth only overcome annhilation if they are able to reboot. If you want to truly damage your enemy and gain the advantage, completely dead is probably better than dead until respawn.

Modifié par Pacifien, 07 juin 2010 - 06:06 .


#571
Teknor

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"If you can repair the damage done to the brain, you can rebuild it too" (that includes memory etc) was my point.

#572
Inverness Moon

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Shandepared wrote...

It was magic so don't expect a rational explanation.

Pretty much. I don't see how Shepard could have is memories, much less the rest of his/her mind intact after such a long period of decay. I imagine the body could be repaired after that time, of course, but it wouldn't be the same person.

Shandepared wrote...

I have no doubt that you really believe that, I also have no doubt that you've got no clue what you're talking about.

Believe what you want.

Shandepared wrote...

How do you know exactly how to put things together? You need to know the location of every single neuron before the quarian, human, batarian, whatever, gets killed. In such case you're simply repairing the damage done, you're not creating a new one or even duplicating it.

With the geth there's no work involved: copy-paste the code and you've got another. You can't copy-paste the quarian.

This is all moot though because we don't even know exactly what a memory IS in physical terms.

We may not know exactly what it is in physical terms, but it is physical, meaning it can be manipulated with sufficient technology.

Yes, it's easier to copy geth, because they were designed, organics were not. The difficulty involved in such a copy is not as relevant as the idea that it is possible.

Shandepared wrote...

In any case, it's interesting to watch you all inadvertently justify genocide if only to try and prove to me that organic lives are as worthless as synthetic "lives".

:wizard:

#573
Mouton_Alpha

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Shandepared wrote...
In any cae, it's interesting to watch you all inadvertently justify genocide if only to try and prove to me that organic lives are as worthless as synthetic "lives".

Wiat, what, i thought it was you who were the **** one ;)

Kidding, kidding

#574
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Well I'm glad that we've able to reach a form of consensus.

#575
Inverness Moon

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Shandepared wrote...

Well I'm glad that we've able to reach a form of consensus.

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