752 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

Shandepared is definitely trolling at this point. He has hit the defensive wall, just repeating that they are different and thus not the same...



Are you so out for blood that would would go out of your way to murder all Geth programs if they decided to just leave into the space between stars and never return? Would you hunt them down just because you must kill that which is different?



Then why must you side with the attackers, instead of just asking the Geth to leave. They do not want the planet, they will give it back happily. All they want is to be left alone, away from people like you.

[getblunted69]

id side with the geth as long as it wasnt the heretics...

[Lulia]

I'd side with the Quarian - you know... the race that is actually alive.



I'm surprised anyone would side with the Geth, even the "good" geth.



You can't hurt them physically and you can't hurt them mentally or emotionally - they are dead in every real sense of the word.



Their "desire" to be free, isn't due to them yearning to be free and rejecting the concept of hurting living things but due to a glitch in their programing.



They haven't gained a soul, they are simply defective.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

If it quacks like an duck, looks like an duck, it probably isn't an elephant.

Nor is it necessarily a duck.

Nor is it necessarily not.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...


Haha... to spite you. Not really. I am proving an point.

Is you now?

64 quadrillion credits is not a solution.

Yes, you can't accept that geth are sentient machines by your reasoning, I reason that 64 Quadrillion credits isn't a problem because I don't put an pricetag on organic lives. Big whoop if it costs 64 quadrillion credits, not like anyone is going to keep track of everything. I provided an means. A fesbile means. The pricetag is ireleveant in our arguement.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Yes I do. By the fact that the REST of this galaxy doesn't have this technology. Let's see, quarians has tech A. Quarians get booted off of homeworlds.... The rest of the galaxy doesn't have Tech A. Connect the dots.

Why would only quarians have this tech? They were contributing members of the Citadel and this was technology they employed on a wide scale. I find it hard to believe it would disseminated, most especially considering VI's are common place.

Yes well considering we have heard this tech only existing in the quarian space... yeah I would believe it. You kidding me? had humans had heard of that tech, we be all over it like free cookies or an free food if we could get our hands on it. 

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Once Again.... *cough* okeer's mind imprint *cough*

A good point, but that is Collector tech, tech that is not well understood, and which was lost outside of Grunt. Of-course I'm sure you saved the Collector base, so...

Then again, we don't know to what extent those imprints could change somebody. You may recall that while the imprints gave Grunt memories he knew already that they were not his memories and his personality, his likes and dislikes, were his own. He was not the obedient soldier that Okeer wanted him to be. So even if you could use that technology to give other quarians memories you still would not be saving the quarian who originally had the memory; you'd just be giving that memory to their twin.

Grunts implants failed because he couldn't plant meaning with the infomation. It can be perfected. The point being, the only thing that makes us different is our memories and experinces and genetics. that's pretty much it, copy them all 100%, your going to get another me or you.

Andrew Waltfeld wrote...

The brain acts more like computer because we BASED IT off of ourselves.

 
We designed our own brains? News to me.

Ok, so the sentence was structured wrong. My bad, but you should have gotten the context with the following paragraph.  Though, you might want to I dunno respond to the rest of my arguement if you wanna prove me wrong, or are you going to hop-scotch all across mine and not bother responding.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Explain that to me.

It is simple, really. Everything that is you is made up of specific atoms arranged in specific positions doing specific things, like with the geth. The geth were designed by sentients and are therefore relatively easier to manipulate and duplicate. This is much harder with organics because we were not designed, but evolved. But, were we ever to find out how to manipulate an arrangement of atoms in space on such a basic level, duplicating a human would become as easy as with a geth.

They are simply two roads to the same end, each with its own advantages and disadvantages depending on your POV. Some people view being difficult to manipulate as an advantage or evidence of superiority, some do not. But assuming that such a thing is impossible is narrow-minded.

Shandepared wrote...

No, they are not. A mind requires a brain and the geth do not have a brain. They have computer programs which ni no way resemble a brain.

Considering that geth were designed by organic brains to do the things that organic brains can do, I find it hard to believe they in no way resemble a brain. I said this a long time ago, let's not go in circles.

You argument shows a lack of understanding about what a mind is. You're making stuff up, basically.

Shandepared wrote...

True an individual brain cell does not allow a mind but then brain cells aren't what is important; it's the structure of the brain. Geth have no brain structure because they have no brain. Until I see proof that a brain is not needed to have a mind I won't believe the geth have minds, and thus I won't believe they are living beings.

You're being narrow-minded again.. It is the structure that is important, not the material used to create the structure. You can build houses out of wood, brick, metal, other uncommon materials, or use everything at once, but they're still houses.

Until you see proof? Mass Effect is Sci-Fi, you don't get physical proof, you have to exercise your mind, something you seem to be quite adverse to doing considering your illogical arguments and assumptions. You've already tried to alter, or just completely ignore established canon, so I have no reason to believe anything BioWare says fits into what you consider proof.

Now then, if you're trying to argue that the geth don't have minds you're talking to a brick wall. The geth are sentient therefore must have minds, just because we don't know how they work exactly doesn't mean they don't have them. We don't even know how our own work exactly.

Shandepared wrote...

No, you can't. When I dismiss the geth as being alive and having rights I give reasons for it. How are you going to account for the money and time required to ressurrect that many people? You claim to have some programing knowledge which tells me you of all people should appreciate just how big that number is. Give me a reason for dismissing it that advances your argument. Doing it to spite me doesn't help you any.

Stop trying to sidetrack the argument with useless notions such as money. Organics cost more because they were not designed with cost effectiveness in mind, or at all. That does not necessitate a superior design.

Shandepared wrote...

I never said cloning wasn't possible, but cloning doesn't bring someone back from the dead. All it creates is a physical twin, a twin that does not have the same mind or experiences. It is an entirely separate person.

And you can copy geth programs, doesn't mean memories will go with it.

Shandepared wrote...

That is an extremely unspecific term to use. An organic brain operates nothing like a computer does. If you designed a computer to work like a brain it wouldn't work at all. None of the same components, structure, and perhaps none of the same capabilities.

The quarians designed some computer programs to work like their brains, they're called the geth.

You're making unfounded assumptions again.

Edit: If you're trying to play devil's advocate you're doing a terrible job of it, but that is just my opinion.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 08 juin 2010 - 03:32 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

If if's and buts were candy and nuts.

Should I assume then you can't disagree?

I don't care if you find it hard to believe or not. A computer program is not a brain. It might simulate some of the functions but it isn't accomplishing them the same way a brain is.

If I don't know what a mind is then why don't you tell me instead of leaving me to wallow in ignorance?

I did not say that a computer programs were organic brains, but I'm sure you knew that. And of course a geth program wouldn't accomplish things the same way an organic brain would, because it's not organic. But what is important is that a geth program is capable of a digital analog (simulation) of some of the functions of an organic brain, which you acknowledged, so that is the end of that.

It's also not my responsibility to make sure that you know what you're talking about. Dictionary.com is there for you. But I'll summarize and say that "organic" is not in the definition of mind.

And please put some more effort into what you're saying, you're clearly not being serious about what you say or how you respond, and it shows in the way that you respond to something other than what I said.

If you call a preference for reality narrow-mindedness then I concede I am narrow-minded. I think you are a bit to eager to believe in that which has not yet been done and may not even be possible.

Mass Effect is not reality, if you're going to argue about the lore then you can't constrain yourself with reality. You need to use your brain and some logic to think about what would be possible in the future, beyond what is currently reality.

I have yet to find a logical reason why an organic brain is the only pathway to sentience, in fact there is more reason to believe that it isn't.

Where?

Nevermind, it seems it was CmdrFenix that did that. I apologize.

I never said anything about superior design.

You implied it. You think organics are superior to synthetics for some reasons, one of those seems to be that organics can't be easily duplicated, memories and all, like the geth. Am I wrong?

Yes it does. The geth transmit themselves and their memories over vast differences. This means their memories are not in any way physical things. They are strictly information, part of the geth's program.

Their memories are stored as data files, but those files are not part of the geth programs themselves. They can transfer memories without transferring the programs and vice versa, that is what I was saying.

Cloning a human would be like copying a geth program without copying the memories along with it. It would make different decisions if it has a different perspective than the program it was copied from, the same goes for a human clone.

If I am then so are you.

Prove it.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Yes, you can't accept that geth are sentient machines by your reasoning, I reason that 64 Quadrillion credits isn't a problem because I don't put an pricetag on organic lives.

It doesn't matter if you don't because others do and they'll be the ones paying for it.

No it doesn't matter actually in the arguement. The question at hand was wether or not I could provide an legitmate means to save 17 million quarians, I provided two means of doing so. One is an literally copy/paste, the other is repairing the dead.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Ok, so the sentence was structured wrong. My bad, but you should have gotten the context with the following paragraph.  Though, you might want to I dunno respond to the rest of my arguement if you wanna prove me wrong, or are you going to hop-scotch all across mine and not bother responding.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove at this point. I think you're trying to equate quarians with geth by arguing that you can preserve or ressurect a quarian the way you can a geth.

At this point? I was bacially telling you to go back to previous previous post and provide counter-arguements to them like to my "why an organic brain is the same as an computer" and why somehow, my copya/pasta method with the quarians is different other than an 64 quadrillion pricetag. The pricetag does not matter because the entire basis for my arguement was proving that I could do the same to the quarians as you could with copying the geth. The method matters not as long as it exists. If the method exists, then it means that I can do the same to the quarians as I can to the geth.

However the differences between the two go way beyond that.

and the differences between the two go where? They both do similar functions (Live, build, learn etc), they may not do it the same way, but there is multiple models of bridges that are made. Each gets things from one side to another. The only difference is how they do it, and I am proving my point that I presented another bridge design, you say it can't be done, why? because the price tag? The price tag doesn't matter, assuming the money magically appears, then yes, It can be done.

Unless you got some counter-arguements, I won the arguement on the copy/pasta geth/quarians and that organic brains are the same as computers.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 08 juin 2010 - 05:11 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Can't disagree about what, that we're made up of atoms or that if you could perfectly replicate that person you'd have a double? No, I don't disagree with that. However that isn't possible.

Whether or not it is possible now isn't the point. But I've gotten enough out of this.

You said basically said they were functionally the same. The core of your argument seems to be that geth are just as alive as we are because they posses minds just like we do. I disagree on account of the fact that a computer program is not a brain and that consciousness may very well require a physical brain to achieve, more specifically, it may require an organic brain.

I know what you're saying, but I don't see a reason why an organic brain would be necessary. If a digital analog can perform the same functions using different methods, then why couldn't consciousness be achieved?

Such as?

Such as we are a product of the way our brain functions not the materials it uses, those are just a means to an end. That is why I see no reason to believe artificial intelligence is impossible.

Organic lives are more valuable, among those reasons is that they can't be duplicated the way a geth can. In addition to that they percieve reality completely differently and have emotions, they have a consciouness and a mind. I don't believe a computer can be conscious.

I don't think differences in the perception of reality are important, neither are emotions.

Would you agree then, that organic lives would become less valuable if they could be duplicated as easily as the geth? But even then, part of that value comes from individualism and the inability to share information. If you asked the geth to choose between destroying a platform like Legion, and all data inside it, or destroying a quarian. I would not be surprised if they saved the quarian, because the difference between geth is perspective.

But anyhow, why can't a computer be conscious?

You know this how?

Legion says as much.

A.I. doesn't exist and is not yet proven to be possible so you can't possibly assume that geth are alive and state it as fact. If I'm making assumptions so are you.

I should not have to explain to you the difference between the Mass Effect universe, reality, and which I am talking about at the time.

[ShamieGTX]

GETH ALL THE WAY BABY! Legion can kick ass in a firefight and kick a computers ass hacking it!



Tali...not so much...

[Mercedes-Benz]

The Quarians of course, they are organics, the Geth are not.

[Vaenier]

Emotions and pain are not even close to relevant in this topic. They are not required to be alive by any definition. Humans with mental disorders that do not allow them to feel pain or emotions are no less alive than any other. Please stop using them to justify that Geth are not alive.

[Vaenier]

Shandepared wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Emotions and pain are not even close to relevant in this topic.

They help us weigh the value of a life against that of a computer program.

Thank you for ignoring the argument, and only viewing the opening summary...

[Nightwriter]

Vaenier wrote...

Emotions and pain are not even close to relevant in this topic. They are not required to be alive by any definition. Humans with mental disorders that do not allow them to feel pain or emotions are no less alive than any other. Please stop using them to justify that Geth are not alive.

I think I know what you're trying to say.

We tend to define life based on our own state of being, and since we are emotional creatures capable of feeling pain we define life that way. Which is, I have to admit as an intellectual thinker, wrong.

But look at it this way - a plant is alive. I know that. And life is precious. I value plants. But plants have no nerve endings. They cannot feel pain. They are a form of life, no less a form than my own, but they are a different form. Now ask me to choose between a human life and the life of a plant. To make it even, give that plant sentience, like the geth (or else it's a poor comparison). What will I probably choose?

What I'm trying to say is the ability to feel pain is important. It doesn't make the geth any less a form of life, but it is important. Life's preciousness is in part defined by its vulnerability. How vulnerable are geth? 

How vulnerable are organics?

[Vaenier]

Pain can be argued as a weakness, thus making the Geth superior. I envy Geth for their ability to not feel pain. No limits.

Not feeling pain being a reason to commit genocide is just stupid.

A sentient plant has just as much reason as a human to live. The only way to chose between them is how you personally know them. But if you enter this situation with prejudice, then it is a pointless argument.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

I suppose to properly answer that question we'd need a definitive understanding of what it is and what causes it. Currently we don't.

Then you can't rule out something like the geth until we're able to answer that question. But if were're not going to get into subjects like the soul, I see no reason why it would not be possible, we use computer programs for simulating many other things, I don't think a brain is out of the question. It is just a matter of matter of understanding our own brains then being able to create a program that responds to input in the same way that our brains do.

The materials may be essential to performing said functions. For instance, how would you give a robot emotions?

Why would you give a robot emotions? I would not something like that interfering with logical thought processes.

Maybe the question you want to ask is how you would make robots feel? In which case the answer would be you can't make them feel in the way that organics do because they don't exist in the same way that organics do. If that wasn't your question, then emotions could be simulated by applying modifiers to the chances of certain courses and/or categories of action depending on a certain variables that represent how much of an emotion is being felt.

What Legion says is relevant here: "Your brain exists as chemistry, electricity. Like AIs, you are shaped by both hardware and software. We are purely software. Mathematics."

To give programs like the geth emotion would mean another step in the mathematical formulas they use to determine what they do.

Well I do.

Why?

To a degree. However organics can also be made to feel various kinds of pain, a machine can't. You can't hurt a machine like you can a person. Certainly you could program the machine to display the appearance of pain, but the actual painful sensation would not be there.

Pain is a means to an end; a rather unpleasant one. What point are you trying to make?

The entire point behind the geth is that sharing of sensory information, specifically experiences, directly.

I don't think you understand the point I was making, simply that geth programs and memory files can be transferred separately or at the same time, and that transferring or copying a program without memory files is like cloning.

Nightwriter wrote...

What I'm trying to say is the ability to feel pain is important. It doesn't make the geth any less a form of life, but it is important. Life's preciousness is in part defined by its vulnerability. How vulnerable are geth?

How vulnerable are organics?

The importance of things like pain and emotion is entirely a matter of opinion, to say other forms of life--whether they be organic or synthetic--are inferior because they lack these is racist.

The geth may be less vulnerable individually than organics, but as a whole, their race is more unique.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 08 juin 2010 - 11:40 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

No it doesn't matter actually in the arguement. The question at hand was wether or not I could provide an legitmate means to save 17 million quarians, I provided two means of doing so.

It's not legitimate if no one can afford it and secondly you haven't proven you can do it.

I could care less if it costs 64 dollars or 68 quadrillion dollars, The price is i-revelent to me is just the same as you think the geth aren't alive due to computer programming. You think that because we don't have A.I. right now, that it can not be possible. I think that there shouldn't be an price on life in general and if someone had the will to ressurrect 17 million quarians, they already have an idea on how to get it done and the money is irelevent in their eyes as well.

The technology Okeer used only gave Grunt vague memories of which he had no attatchment to.

Only vague because the imprint failed. If the connection succeeded, grunt would have been vastly different.

You could presumably create new quarians, yes, but again this is not the only side to my argument. I've also maintained from the begining that the geth are not live due to their nature of computer programs. They don't posses organic brains and until proven otherwise (in reality) I'm not going to believe that consciousness is possible without an organic brain.

Ain't my problem if you can't have suspendence of belief. Suspendence of belief is what advances us. Star trek gave birth to the idea of cellphones and numerous other technology that we now use everyday. If everyone had that attutude, we still be in the 60s-70s.

So I'll concede that with the right technology and funding it might be possible to copy organics like you can a geth, but that still doesn't equate a synthetic "life" to an organic life.

Never said it does.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Unless you got some counter-arguements, I won the arguement (snip) that organic brains are the same as computers.

No you haven't. They aren't the same, period. Entirely different compostion, structure, and result.

.... it's analogy of how things work. You have something that you know, and you compare it to something you don't know. There's your definition of analogy. They do similar functions and do the same results. They have the same results and the structure is very similar actually if you ADHER to canon of the ME universe.

Alright fine this is going to be an waste of my time, but wth, might as well give it an shot.

Legion = 1081 programs makes him who he is.

Brain = many neurons yes?

The geth programs operate in parallel to form an intelliegence  that walks, talks, shoots you, learns etc. yes? (assuming you don't ignore canon, you gonna say yes. If you don't, then uh too bad, Bioware said so)

Therefore geth programs = neurons. (still with me? very simple. A = B stuff here, should have learned this in Highschool)

So if geth programs = Neurons then Geth programs = a organic brain. Because an organic brain is equal to an bunch of neurons yes?

If you don't accept canon, then there is further point in this arguement because you aren't adhering to canon. period. I have made the logic chain so clear now, a kid in middle school can follow it and agree to it. If something acts like an duck, quacks like an duck, looks like an duck then it's an bloody duck. Plain and simple.

Just because you think the geth are so seperate an race than organics and can not be considered alive just because they don't feel pain, well they just have the krogan berserking going on... full swing without emotion. Big whoop. We can keep going back and forth, and there is enough knowledge in the ME universe and in general about what we know right now as humans to keep coming up with counter-arguements and you scrambling with arguements to the point where your ignoring entire statements and arguements.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 09 juin 2010 - 12:10 .