752 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Vaenier wrote...

Pain can be argued as a weakness, thus making the Geth superior. I envy Geth for their ability to not feel pain. No limits.
Not feeling pain being a reason to commit genocide is just stupid.
A sentient plant has just as much reason as a human to live. The only way to chose between them is how you personally know them. But if you enter this situation with prejudice, then it is a pointless argument.

But I'm not arguing genocide.

I thought this debate was about, if we absolutely had to choose, which side would we pick, and why?

Obviously in the game I will be I advocating for peace and absolutely nothing else.

That we could ever commit genocide against the geth at this point in time is a laughable notion to me. If I entered into war with the quarians against the geth it would just be to make sure they got out of it alive before they totally slaughtered themselves. There are just too many geth.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

That's my point, there is a vast difference between the two. It may stop at emotions or it may go futher than that.

Even so, our brains work by responding to input from our body. Why couldn't a program be created to respond to input in the same manner?

I'm sure this line of thought is why brains are compared to computers, because they both work require input of some sort to work and they do what they're programmed to do, whether that is learning and reasoning or simply reacting on instinct like an animal.

Why what? (I don't feel like going back and looking up what we're responding to there)

That the welfare of an organic is more important than the welfare of an unfeeling machine.

What does this have to do with pain?

How does this advance your argument, what are you driving at? In any case 'cloning' with the geth is a little weird because they are not individuals.

It is a clarification.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 08 juin 2010 - 11:54 .

[Vaenier]

Nightwriter wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Pain can be argued as a weakness, thus making the Geth superior. I envy Geth for their ability to not feel pain. No limits.
Not feeling pain being a reason to commit genocide is just stupid.
A sentient plant has just as much reason as a human to live. The only way to chose between them is how you personally know them. But if you enter this situation with prejudice, then it is a pointless argument.

But I'm not arguing genocide.

I thought this debate was about, if we absolutely had to choose, which side would we pick, and why?

Obviously in the game I will be I advocating for peace and absolutely nothing else.

That we could ever commit genocide against the geth at this point in time is a laughable notion to me. If I entered into war with the quarians against the geth it would just be to make sure they got out of it alive before they totally slaughtered themselves. There are just too many geth.

The Quarians that wish to go to war also wish to use a virus not unlike the one the Heretics were creating to brainwash the Geth and turn them into slaves. Deleting their sentient is genocide.

The original question is flawed in its assumption that all Quarians feel this way. The Quarians are far from unified. If you bring Legion with you on Tali's loyalty mission, you clearly see three distinct factions forming within the Quarians. One seeking a new world away from the Geth. One seeking to reconsile past mistakes and seek peace with the Geth. And one who wishes to commit massive genocide and violently take back their homeworld from the Geth. The peace seekers are not just a tiny minority. The whole trial is a power play for control of the admiralty board.

Geth will never seek out and attack the Quarians. They will always be the defensive party. The Quarian faction will be the aggressors.

I really hope bioware doesnt chicken out and retcon this...

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
*snip*
Oh bull****. We had the beginings of cell-phones two decades before Star Trek. That show, nor any other fiction, has ever invented a goddamn thing.

Agreed, but the whole point of science fiction is the creation of an environment in which science (probably or not) has altered the world beyond what is possible by today's standards. Preferably, on my part, that science is within the realm of the theoretical, but some science fiction takes that **** and runs with it and beyond.

To say we can't argue about the existence of AI or the possibility the human brain can be mapped is defeating the whole purpose of setting the story in a science fiction setting. You might as well stick to stories set in the modern day. Read historical accounts. Play with your iPad.

And seriously, how realistic can you even get with the science in Mass Effect when most of the species just happened to evolve along a bipedal form and blue space babes just happen to want to have sex with you. If you're unwilling to allow lateral thinking to some of the concepts, you're approaching it wrong.

[Nightwriter]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

What I'm trying to say is the ability to feel pain is important. It doesn't make the geth any less a form of life, but it is important. Life's preciousness is in part defined by its vulnerability. How vulnerable are geth?

How vulnerable are organics?

The importance of things like pain and emotion is entirely a matter of opinion, to say other forms of life--whether they be organic or synthetic--are inferior because they lack these is racist.

The geth may be less vulnerable individually than organics, but as a whole, their race is more unique.

I have never said they were inferior. Why must people cling to this word? I have said we are more vulnerable.

It is also, I think, racist to say they are more unique.

There are billions of geth. There are only 17 million quarians. If 17 million geth are lost, it will hardly matter. They're just mobile platforms. Their culture will not have been gone forever.

[Pacifien]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
That the welfare of an organic is more important than the welfare of an unfeeling machine.

What does this have to do with pain?

I think this thread has established that there are some people who are unwilling to treat synthetics like the geth on an equal status to organic civilizations. Feelings have everything to do with it, I suppose.

[implodinggoat]

How the hell do the Geth have so much support in this poll? I mean 47% of the votes? Holy Hell.



I mean think about it the Geth have no individuality so killing all of them is really just like killing one guy maybe two depending on what you think of Legion. On top of that you're kidding yourself if you don't think the race of sentient machines which gave you so much hell in ME1 have suddenly ceased to be a threat merely because Legion told you so.

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
*snip*
There are billions of geth. There are only 17 million quarians. If 17 million geth are lost, it will hardly matter. They're just mobile platforms. Their culture will not have been gone forever.

If the quarians did fight the geth, I doubt they'd stop at destruction count of 17 million. You'd want to destroy their mainframe, their platform factories, you'd want to wipe them all out. When fighting against a synthetic race, at what point can you declare victory or a truce?

The problem the quarians have is that they appear to be working on an all-or-nothing approach, not surprising if their knowledge of the geth is limited to the actions of the heretics. If Legion approached a quarian with a white flag, they'd probably still shoot and wonder what the flag might have meant later.

Modifié par Pacifien, 09 juin 2010 - 12:23 .

[Collider]

I agree with Night in that I would side with peace first and foremost. If I had to choose sides, I would choose depending on the circumstance.

[Vaenier]

Pacifien wrote...

If Legion approached a geth with a white flag, they'd probably still shoot and wonder what the flag might have meant later.

The flag was a super powerful weapon that would have doomed the Quarians with its magnificent death beams...

Modifié par Vaenier, 09 juin 2010 - 12:17 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Why couldn't a program be created to respond to input in the same manner?

It could certainly respond the same way, but would it process it exactly the same way? Of-course not, because it isn't an organic brain. I have no doubt that we can create clever machines which can recieve inputs and give us outputs that are indistinguishable from what a human woul do. However I question that internally the machine is thinking or feeling the way a human does, and if it isn't then I question whether we should even consider it alive.

The machine wouldn't be thinking or feeling the same as a human internally, it isn't supposed to, and i don't think it could because it wouldn't exist as a human does. I just don't think that something needs to think or feel like a human to be alive.

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

What does this have to do with pain?

That should be obvious.

It isn't. Pain is a means to an end, I don't even know why you brought it up.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

I could care less if it costs 64 dollars or 68 quadrillion dollars, The price is i-revelent to me is just the same as you think the geth aren't alive due to computer programming. You think that because we don't have A.I. right now, that it can not be possible. I think that there shouldn't be an price on life in general and if someone had the will to ressurrect 17 million quarians, they already have an idea on how to get it done and the money is irelevent in their eyes as well. [/quote]

I forgot that you already have 100 quadrillion credits to your name, so of-course you wouldn't need to worry about the cost. I concede then.
[/quote]
I wish, but my main point being - the situation would be very similiar to the sheppard ressurection, just on an more massive scale. Anyone who got the balls to do that already got something in mind on how to go about doing it.


[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Only vague because the imprint failed. If the connection succeeded, grunt would have been vastly different.[/quote]
 
Maybe. Why'd it fail though? 
[/quote]
Who knows, perhaps okeer rushed it because of jidore and our arrival on the planet. Perhaps okeer was simply "knowledge knowledge knowledge" and grunt was like "so knowledge... cool. wth am I suppose to do?"

either way, memories and knowledge was transfered to grunt. He certainly knew how the collectors were gonna bust into the normandy.

[quote]
[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Ain't my problem if you can't have suspendence of belief. Suspendence of belief is what advances us. Star trek gave birth to the idea of cellphones and numerous other technology that we now use everyday. If everyone had that attutude, we still be in the 60s-70s.[/quote]

Oh bull****. We had the beginings of cell-phones two decades before Star Trek. That show, nor any other fiction, has ever invented a goddamn thing.
[/quote]
http://www.filmjunk....s-in-use-today/

Have fun. I said ideas, they didn't actually invent it.

[quote]
[quote]Andew_waltfeld wrote...

.... it's analogy of how things work.[/quote]

Analogies do not prove anything.
[/quote]
Mine did. Unless you know, you wanna point out something that was wrong in my logic chain.



[/quote]

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
Admiral Xen seems to feel the same way I do and that sets a precedent that even within the Mass Effect universe my opinion on the geth and A.I. in general is not unheard of.

I know it's not unheard of. That's not the point so much as taking that belief and saying any evidence or thoughts to the contrary simply aren't feasible.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
Anti-Talimancer sentiment and Legion-Lust.

That's right. I hate the Tali/Shepard romance and all who support it with the passionate fire of a thousand suns, just as much as I yearn for Legion's embrace with the same passion.

Modifié par Pacifien, 09 juin 2010 - 12:22 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

You might as well stick to stories set in the modern day.

Admiral Xen seems to feel the same way I do and that sets a precedent that even within the Mass Effect universe my opinion on the geth and A.I. in general is not unheard of.

yes it's pre-dominant, however xen doesnt know jack**** on the geth and the circumstances of the herectics etc. When marines on recon in geth space don't know that there are two fractions of geth running around, then ovious what you learn in game is certainly different from how the rest of the galaxy percieves it. Hell most people on the citadel, don't even know what geth look like.

[Nightwriter]

Pacifien wrote...

If the quarians did fight the geth, I doubt they'd stop at destruction count of 17 million. You'd want to destroy their mainframe, their platform factories, you'd want to wipe them all out. When fighting against a synthetic race, at what point can you declare victory or a truce?

The problem the quarians have is that they appear to be working on an all-or-nothing approach, not surprising if their knowledge of the geth is limited to the actions of the heretics. If Legion approached a geth with a white flag, they'd probably still shoot and wonder what the flag might have meant later.

Well, I want them both to survive. I would fight for peace.

But if I absolutely couldn't have peace, and war was imminent, I'd take a look at both sides' odds.

The first thing I'd readily see is the geth have a huge advantage. Huge. They have:

1.) Numbers. Numbers, numbers, numbers. They enormously outnumber the quarians
2.) Invulnerability. The quarians can't fight war against other organics because of their immune systems. Against geth? God, they'll be massacred.
3.) Rapid reproduction - geth can make new geth way faster than quarians can make new quarians.
4.) Omnipresence. The geth's neural network will make battle strategy ridiculously weighted in their favor...
5.) The geth are a collective. They're "we". It's not as much of a loss when they lose numbers.

And that's just off the top of my head. Not to mention the geth know about Rael's research now. Even if you side with Tali or persuade your way out of the confrontation, Legion sees evidence of the research and they're going to defend against it.

[Vaenier]

Nightwriter wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

If the quarians did fight the geth, I doubt they'd stop at destruction count of 17 million. You'd want to destroy their mainframe, their platform factories, you'd want to wipe them all out. When fighting against a synthetic race, at what point can you declare victory or a truce?

The problem the quarians have is that they appear to be working on an all-or-nothing approach, not surprising if their knowledge of the geth is limited to the actions of the heretics. If Legion approached a geth with a white flag, they'd probably still shoot and wonder what the flag might have meant later.

Well, I want them both to survive. I would fight for peace.

But if I absolutely couldn't have peace, and war was imminent, I'd take a look at both sides' odds.

The first thing I'd readily see is the geth have a huge advantage. Huge. They have:

1.) Numbers. Numbers, numbers, numbers. They enormously outnumber the quarians
2.) Invulnerability. The quarians can't fight war against other organics because of their immune systems. Against geth? God, they'll be massacred.
3.) Rapid reproduction - geth can make new geth way faster than quarians can make new quarians.
4.) Omnipresence. The geth's neural network will make battle strategy ridiculously weighted in their favor...
5.) The geth are a collective. They're "we". It's not as much of a loss when they lose numbers.

And that's just off the top of my head. Not to mention the geth know about Rael's research now. Even if you side with Tali or persuade your way out of the confrontation, Legion sees evidence of the research and they're going to defend against it.

Why would you try to help a race that starts a war against such odds? Its one thing if they were being hunted by Geth, but the Quarians are in an unofficial truce with the Geth for 300 years. Quarians would be committing suicide, then they deserve to die.

[Collider]

That's thinking in too broad of terms, Vaenier. Many smaller countries have started wars against larger countries. Does that mean ALL of the populace of the smaller country should die? It's pretty despicable to suggest so. It's not like the population of the smaller country has to believe and agree with what their government is doing. Most of the U.S. population does not support the failing war in the Middle East, does not mean we should be attacked by terrorists.



And you must think of the innocent children.

[Inverness Moon]

This isn't about odds, it's about right and wrong.



I don't care how bad the odds are for the quarians, I would not side with them if I believe they are in the wrong. The most I would do was make sure the geth only kill the quarians that wish to fight and not those that want peace with the geth. But I doubt I'd need to tell them that after 300 years.