752 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

Shandepared wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Quarians would be committing suicide, then they deserve to die.

Way to take the moral highground.

If they bang their heads into a wall repeatedly, I will try to stop them, I wont start doing it with them.

I support stopping all genocide. be it the Geth on quarians, or the more likely Quarians against geth. I want peace, but people are saying they will help the quarians commit genocide just because they dont want them suffering from a war they started themselves.

Modifié par Vaenier, 09 juin 2010 - 12:42 .

[Vaenier]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Why would you try to help a race that starts a war against such odds? Its one thing if they were being hunted by Geth, but the Quarians are in an unofficial truce with the Geth for 300 years. Quarians would be committing suicide, then they deserve to die.

 The Migrant Fleet is dying and they have nowhere else to go. What else are they supposed to do? Just wait and die out

The Quarians are far from unified. If you bring Legion with you on
Tali's loyalty mission, you clearly see three distinct factions forming
within the Quarians. One seeking a new world away from the Geth. One
seeking to reconsile past mistakes and seek peace with the Geth. And one
who wishes to commit massive genocide and violently take back their
homeworld from the Geth. The peace seekers are not just a tiny minority.
The whole trial is a power play for control of the admiralty board.

Side with either of the first two factions.

[Nightwriter]

Vaenier wrote...

Why would you try to help a race that starts a war against such odds? Its one thing if they were being hunted by Geth, but the Quarians are in an unofficial truce with the Geth for 300 years. Quarians would be committing suicide, then they deserve to die.

Exactly what Collider said. It's not fair to punish an entire race for the actions of a few.

You yourself said the quarians are hardly unified. Many want peace, many are sorry, many just want to live and be happy.

Yet if the Admiralty Board is swayed in favor of war, purely by the actions of two or three people, to war they all will go.

[Vaenier]

Nightwriter wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Why would you try to help a race that starts a war against such odds? Its one thing if they were being hunted by Geth, but the Quarians are in an unofficial truce with the Geth for 300 years. Quarians would be committing suicide, then they deserve to die.

Exactly what Collider said. It's not fair to punish an entire race for the actions of a few.

You yourself said the quarians are hardly unified. Many want peace, many are sorry, many just want to live and be happy.

Yet if the Admiralty Board is swayed in favor of war, purely by the actions of two or three people, to war they all will go.

I see civil war more likely. I already designed a mission for ME3 that can have you take your side in the geth/quarian war while using exactly the same level and enemies. Bioware loves the easy road.

And I would never help the Geth commit genocide on the Quarians.

Modifié par Vaenier, 09 juin 2010 - 12:54 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Scientists weren't sitting there thinking "I need to invent an ipad or tricorder." Rather computers got smaller and so we started adding additional functions to our phones and calculators and we gradually created the devices we had today. I don't believe for a moment that any TV show influenced the creation of those devices.

Then your clearly misinformed about the nature of geeks and people who invent this stuff. We live and breathe this stuff. This technology doesn't get invented or advanced unless one of us gets the bright idea to do it. Most of the time it does come from science fiction. Somehow, I am not surprised that you don't know this or believe this to be true. I shudder at what other things you are mis-informed about.

Btw, The link is perfectly valid. this isn't some paper i'm writing for college. To be honest at this point, your dancing around the hot coals trying to avoid them by twitching any which way you want.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Mine did. Unless you know, you wanna point out something that was wrong in my logic chain.

If your position is that strong you shouldn't need an analogy.

Do you even know the definiton of analogy? You clearly side-stepping my arguement completely if your going to try to BS on this one. I am going to assume you have no arguement unless you want to respond with one. Our entire arguement is COMPARING two things together.

Otherwise, I am will start assuming from this point on, if you don't respond to my past arguement or any future ones with something that is an fatal flaw in the logic, then I assume I won it.  Your attempting to dodge the bullet on this arguement and to be honest, your horribly failing in my POV.

And I don't mean these one-liners with the begining quoted and some line similiar to -

"Ah yes, analogies, a form of logic based in reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in an certain respect on the basis of known similarity between the things. We have dimissed this claim."

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 09 juin 2010 - 12:56 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Btw, The link is perfectly valid. this isn't some paper i'm writing for college. To be honest at this point, your dancing around the hot coals trying to avoid them by twitching any which way you want.

Sure.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

 I basically assumed that your attempting to dodge the bullet on this arguement and to be honest, your horribly failing in my POV.

Okay.

cute.

[UpDownLeftRight]

Why do some of you consider emotion to be an important aspect of a "living" entity?(genuine curiosity)

We do not "feel" pain, we experience functions of our "programming". If A punches B, B won't truly "feel" pain. B will react to the stimuli of her/his nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances. Love is no different. We do not truly "feel" love.
Dopamine, Estrogen, nerve growth factors(NGF), Norepinephrine, Oxytocin, Serotonin, Testosterone and Vasopressin are what we call "love". The most important ones are NGF, Oxytocin and Serotonin. Exactly why they do what they do is not really known. But they are the reasons we "feel"/"experience" love.

We do not "feel". We "feel" because our brains tell us to "feel". We experience the consequences of different stimuli, only made possible through our biological "programming". If an AI is programmed to "feel", are those emotions any different? If they are, in what way?

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 09 juin 2010 - 12:58 .

[Nightwriter]

Inverness Moon wrote...

This isn't about odds, it's about right and wrong.

I don't care how bad the odds are for the quarians, I would not side with them if I believe they are in the wrong. The most I would do was make sure the geth only kill the quarians that wish to fight and not those that want peace with the geth. But I doubt I'd need to tell them that after 300 years.

See, I'm the opposite.

It's useless to think about right and wrong for me when I know there are innocents on both sides.

What happened three hundred years ago? It was three hundred years ago. They both made mistakes. And I can understand why both made them.

And it would be different when it comes to the quarians if I didn't know that the few who do want to fight could very well get everyone who doesn't want to fight killed.

[Vaenier]

Shandepared wrote...

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Why do some of you consider emotion to be an important aspect of a "living" entity?(genuine curiosity)

I explained the importance of emotion quite thoroughly.

That direction of this discussion dead ended a while ago. We are onto the Quarians not being a unified race and thier possible suicide by starting a war they cant win on their own.

[Nightwriter]

Vaenier wrote...

I see civil war more likely. I already designed a mission for ME3 that can have you take your side in the geth/quarian war while using exactly the same level and enemies. Bioware loves the easy road.

And I would never help the Geth commit genocide on the Quarians.

I’m not so sure, Vaenier.

The quarian fleet has worked this way for a long, long time. I am not so sure we can safely say civil war is most likely.

For three hundred years they have been alone in space, depending solely on themselves and their military government for their very survival. If there is ever a race that would be unlikely to have a civil war – that simply can’t afford a civil war – it’s the quarians.

[Vaenier]

Nightwriter wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I see civil war more likely. I already designed a mission for ME3 that can have you take your side in the geth/quarian war while using exactly the same level and enemies. Bioware loves the easy road.

And I would never help the Geth commit genocide on the Quarians.

I’m not so sure, Vaenier.

The quarian fleet has worked this way for a long, long time. I am not so sure we can safely say civil war is most likely.

For three hundred years they have been alone in space, depending solely on themselves and their military government for their very survival. If there is ever a race that would be unlikely to have a civil war – that simply can’t afford a civil war – it’s the quarians.

People dont like dieing for a war they dont believe in.

But this avenue of discussion is pure opinion, so we wont get very far here.

[Heimdall]

I would broker peace



Shepard "Alright, so the quarians get their homeworld back and the geth can hold onto most of their territory and gain access to the galactic economy... Now signthe treaty before I shoot you both!"



My Shepard wouldn't say that though, he's incredibly Paragon.

[Vaenier]

Well I am done for the night. So I will clarify my cryptic position, atleast so I remember what it is.

I believe that the Quarians will fragment, and if the faction that wants to enslave the Geth does start a war, I would do everything in my power to stop them. [This is atleast what I feel will happen based on my playthroughs.]

If for some inconsevable reason the Geth start a war, I will help the Quarians survive. This would require everything we know being a lie, but Bioware can retcon whatever they want.

If the entire Quarian race all decide to go to into a war they can not win. I will try to stop it, but I wont help them commit genocide just to survive.

Good Night.

[Nightwriter]

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Why do some of you consider emotion to be an important aspect of a "living" entity?(genuine curiosity)

We do not "feel" pain, we experience functions of our "programming". If A punches B, B won't truly "feel" pain. B will react to the stimuli of her/his nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances. Love is no different. We do not truly "feel" love.
Dopamine, Estrogen, nerve growth factors(NGF), Norepinephrine, Oxytocin, Serotonin, Testosterone and Vasopressin are what we call "love". The most important ones are NGF, Oxytocin and Serotonin. Exactly why they do what they do is not really known. But they are the reasons we "feel"/"experience" love.

We do not "feel". We "feel" because our brains tell us to "feel". We experience the consequences of different stimuli, only made possible through our biological "programming". If an AI is programmed to "feel", are those emotions any different? If they are, in what way?

But why does that make those feelings any less real or any less important? 

You can take everything we are down to electro-chemical reactions if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that we are susceptible to those reactions and the geth are not.

If the geth were programmed to feel, yes, I would value that just as much and those feelings would be just as valid.

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
I explained the importance of emotion quite thoroughly.

Are you referring to this?

Shandepared wrote...
To a degree. However organics can also
be made to feel various kinds of pain, a machine can't. You can't hurt a
machine like you can a person. Certainly you could program the machine
to display the appearance of pain, but the actual painful sensation
would not be there.

Once again, your emotions are programs. Nothing more. You do not feel, you do what your brain tells you to do. So once again, why is "emotion" important?

On another not, why is there even a need to define "life"?*(if you think that there is a need)

*genuine curiosity

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Nightwriter wrote...

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Why do some of you consider emotion to be an important aspect of a "living" entity?(genuine curiosity)

We do not "feel" pain, we experience functions of our "programming". If A punches B, B won't truly "feel" pain. B will react to the stimuli of her/his nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances. Love is no different. We do not truly "feel" love.
Dopamine, Estrogen, nerve growth factors(NGF), Norepinephrine, Oxytocin, Serotonin, Testosterone and Vasopressin are what we call "love". The most important ones are NGF, Oxytocin and Serotonin. Exactly why they do what they do is not really known. But they are the reasons we "feel"/"experience" love.

We do not "feel". We "feel" because our brains tell us to "feel". We experience the consequences of different stimuli, only made possible through our biological "programming". If an AI is programmed to "feel", are those emotions any different? If they are, in what way?

But why does that make those feelings any less real or any less important? 

You can take everything we are down to electro-chemical reactions if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that we are susceptible to those reactions and the geth are not.

If the geth were programmed to feel, yes, I would value that just as much and those feelings would be just as valid.

to throw my two cents into the arguement.

and if we decided to put an bunch of sensors all over their bodies where they get pricked or hit they would register an number that says "pain" or "damage"? If I remember correctly, Star trek NG had data who could do that I believe.

Susceptible to this just makes us slightly different from the geth but it isn't an huge ground-breaking difference, the krogan are immune to pain when they are berserking, so does that mean because they can't feel pain at times they now are less organic? No. Pain can be overcome as can anything else. "Rage is one hell of an anthestic" - Zaeed.


Emotions does not make anything more or less alive. They are
merely just another function. Pain is merely an indicator that our
current body is receiving damage.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 09 juin 2010 - 01:44 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

double post. my bad.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 09 juin 2010 - 01:44 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
I disagree on account of the fact that earlier today I had a large chip of wood insert itself beneath my finger nail and into my cuiticle. It hurt.

Shandepared wrote...

I disagree on account of the fact that
earlier today I had a large chip of wood insert itself beneath my finger
nail and into my cuiticle. It hurt.

Ouch, that does hurt. My condolences.

But still. There's no real pertinence here. It "hurt" because your brain told you to feel that. It is there to make
you aware of it. Like an anti-virus.


You didn't truly "feel" pain. You reacted to the stimuli of your nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 09 juin 2010 - 01:54 .