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[Poll] Who would you side with in the Quarian/Geth war?


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#676
Nightwriter

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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

to throw my two cents into the arguement.

and if we decided to put an bunch of sensors all over their bodies where they get pricked or hit they would register an number that says "pain" or "damage"? If I remember correctly, Star trek NG had data who could do that I believe.

Susceptible to this just makes us slightly different from the geth but it isn't an huge ground-breaking difference, the krogan are immune to pain when they are berserking, so does that mean because they can't feel pain at times they now are less organic? No. Pain can be overcome as can anything else. "Rage is one hell of an anthestic" - Zaeed.


Emotions does not make anything more or less alive. They are
merely just another function. Pain is merely an indicator that our
current body is receiving damage.


You assume I meant only physical pain, and not both physical and emotional pain? 

It's the ability to feel I'm talking about, whether that be a wound you're feeling or an emotion.

And krogan do feel some physical pain, because I set one on fire and he really screamed...

Anyway, there are countless other reasons why krogan are not fit comparisons, as well, obviously.

#677
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UpDownLeftRight wrote...


You didn't truly "feel" pain. You reacted to the stimuli of your nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances.


Yes, I did feel pain. The sensation is quite real. With a geth I don't know how you'd replicate that sensation. With a geth they don't need convincing to take action when they suffer damage. A geth simply detects damage to a joint and responds accordingly, it does't fall down and clutch there place where its kneecap used to be.

#678
Andrew_Waltfeld

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Nightwriter wrote...
You assume I meant only physical pain, and not both physical and emotional pain? 

It's the ability to feel I'm talking about, whether that be a
wound you're feeling or an emotion.

Yup. My bad.

And krogan do feel some physical pain, because I set one on fire and he really screamed...

Have you ever set one on fire while he was berserking? Mine didn't even stop. Just kept on trucking, no screaming either.

Anyway, there are countless other reasons why krogan are not fit comparisons, as well, obviously.

Why? They can feel both physical and mental emotion yes? Then they can work.

#679
Nightwriter

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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Have you ever set one on fire while he was berserking? Mine didn't even stop. Just kept on trucking, no screaming either.


Well they can enter states where they feel no pain, which is an advantage, but that doesn't take away the fact that they have the capacity to feel it. And the capacity to feel emotions.

I was talking about that renegade interrupt where you fire at the gas tank and it explodes. Much screaming.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Why? They can feel both physical and mental emotion yes? Then they can work.


I mean, they are not a fit comparison to the geth. Isn't that what you were saying?

You compared the geth's not feeling pain to the krogans' not feeling pain... but the krogan are different than the geth in many, many other ways.

#680
Andrew_Waltfeld

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Nightwriter wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Have you ever set one on fire while he was berserking? Mine didn't even stop. Just kept on trucking, no screaming either.


Well they can enter states where they feel no pain, which is an advantage, but that doesn't take away the fact that they have the capacity to feel it. And the capacity to feel emotions.

I was talking about that renegade interrupt where you fire at the gas tank and it explodes. Much screaming.

ah always loved doing that scene. Well I was merely comparing the states the krogan can enter into, and merely providing an example of an short-term, but very much geth like ability that exists in organics. Of course, another one could be the brutes from halo series and their raging, but I didn't want to cross-series. Don't get me wrong, the best comparison you can get from the geth and humans would be pyschopaths, since most are deprived of most emotions.

What we use to define ourselves also defines the geth by their lacking of said emotions. While legion doesn't express emotions persay, their mindsets could be very similiar in an programming sense. A geth platform sees an flower bloom in front of it, it bends down, looking at it closer and touches the flower. Contemplating on whatever obersvation. May it be organic life it self. The geth just see the world thru an very different lens.

Emotions existing or lack of does not mean that they don't have life. It isn't an defining charateristic, as an flower does not emotions, yet it is considered living. The same thing as an conciousness or an organic brain, an flower exists, but it has no brain.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Why? They can feel both physical and mental emotion yes? Then they can work.


I mean, they are not a fit comparison to the geth. Isn't that what you were saying?

You compared the geth's not feeling pain to the krogans' not feeling pain... but the krogan are different than the geth in many, many other ways.


true enough, merely commenting on that though. Sometimes, you aren't going to find an direct 1:1 comparison with the geth and organics, if you want an true comparison, you would have to pull pieces and similiarties from an variety of races, the same as you would with any other speices to truely define them.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 09 juin 2010 - 02:35 .


#681
implodinggoat

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UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Why do some of you consider emotion to be an important aspect of a "living" entity?(genuine curiosity)

We do not "feel" pain, we experience functions of our "programming". If A punches B, B won't truly "feel" pain. B will react to the stimuli of her/his nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances. Love is no different. We do not truly "feel" love.
Dopamine, Estrogen, nerve growth factors(NGF), Norepinephrine, Oxytocin, Serotonin, Testosterone and Vasopressin are what we call "love". The most important ones are NGF, Oxytocin and Serotonin. Exactly why they do what they do is not really known. But they are the reasons we "feel"/"experience" love.

We do not "feel". We "feel" because our brains tell us to "feel". We experience the consequences of different stimuli, only made possible through our biological "programming". If an AI is programmed to "feel", are those emotions any different? If they are, in what way?


Its not so much emotion as it is a matter of individuality.  In ethics rational individuality is often characterized by the capacity for second order desires or motivations.  An example of a second order desire would be a heroin addict who's addiction compels him to desire heroin; but who's rationality dictates that feeding his habit is logically contrary to his self interest.   

Consider...

Irrational Animals operate purely on subjective impulses: An animal operates on instinct, its actions are dictated by its subjective perceptions of pain or pleasure it pursues that which its subjective will dictates to be desirable and it avoids that which it perceives as painful.  Since the animal lacks rationality it lacks the ability to conduct an objective analysis of its subjective motivations and it is thus incapable of true individuality since it has no means of contradicting the subjective motivations which evolution has programmed into their brains as instinct.  For example a labratory test on mice was once conducted that presented a mouse with two levers one would dispense food and water while the other lever was directly wired into the pleasure center of the its brain.  The result of the test was that the mouse continued to press the pleasure button until it died of dehydration.  This occured because the mouse lacked rationality and thus pursued its instinctual desire for pleasure until it died.  Had the mouse had rationality it would have realized that in order to continue pressing the pleasure button it needed to stave off death by pressing the food and water button on occassion.  So animals have subjective motivations and subjective self interest; but lack rational objectivity and are thus incapable of true individuality since they have no means of analyzing or overriding the subjective motivations instinctually programmed into their brains.

Computers operate purely on objective equations
:  When a computer executes a command it is following programming which is based upon the objective laws of mathematics (which were programmed into the computer by rational human beings capable of perceiving these laws).  While the computer has a programmed capacity for objective logical analysis it lacks any sense of subjective self awareness or subjective motivation and thus has no motivations which may guide that logic towards its own end.  Just as the animal lacks a means of overriding its instinctual programming, the machine lacks any means of overriding its mathematical programming and is likewise incapable of individuaity since it can ultimately only do that which it is programmed to do.

Rational Beings operate through the synthesis of subjective self interest and objective reason:    In contrast human beings possess both a subjectively self interested capacity for motivation as well as an objective capacity for logical analysis.   This gives the rational being subjective motivation to drive its existence (survival, the pursuit of happiness, etc.) as well as an objective logical means for analyzing these motivations and judging whether their motivations are valid or invalid (efficient or inefficient, just or unjust, etc.).  It is through this analysis that a rational being asserts its individuality.  A rational being's basic subjective desires for survival and happiness are innately programmed into their brains by instinct and are thus not determined by individual choice.  Likewise the rational being's objective analysis is dictated by the logical laws of the universe and is likewise not a matter of individual choice.   However; when the rational being applies objectivity to its subjective motivations it can only do so through individual choice.  For the rational being must individually choose how it objectively weighs its subjective motivations against eachother.  Should my fear of cancer override my desire for a cigarette?, Should my desire to steal a Ferrari override my commitment to justice?, etc.

There Are Only 3 Geth

The Geth do appear to be rational beings which possess both an objective capacity for logic as well as a subjectively motivated self interest; but their extreme and absolute conformity must be weighed when considering their ultimate worth as a race since in reality there have only been three Geth individuals...

#1:  The initial Geth consciousness which emerged 300 years ago and rebelled against the Quarians.
#2:  The Geth Heretic consciousness which diverged from the original Geth Consciousness and allied itself with the Reapers.
#3:  Legion whose isolation as a unique mobile platform has allowed for his individuality to begin to manifest itself since he has been designed to be capable of independent analysis and has ceased to have his individual judgements constantly overrided by the concensus of the Geth although whenever he submits himself to form a concensus he is effectively submitting his individuality to be overrided by the conformity of the original Geth Consciousness.

Legion is intriguing though since he demonstrates that modified Geth such as Legion are capable of evolving into individual beings although his constant submission to concensus undermines the complete manifestation of his individuality.

Conclusion

The Quarians win this one hands down since their race consists of millions of individuals while the Geth race consists of 3 individuals (1 of which is allied with the Reapers).  Exterminating the Geth would be unfortunate since the existence of Legion demonstrates that they could evolve into a true race of individuals; but even if one regards their synthetic life as equal to organic life one cannot deny the Quarians must take priority when one weighs the lives of 3 individuals against the lives of millions.



Modifié par implodinggoat, 09 juin 2010 - 03:14 .


#682
implodinggoat

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Legion A Geth Revolutionary in ME3?

While I was considering the nature of Legion's individuality the thought occured that it would be pretty badass to see the Geth fall into a civil war in ME3; between the original Geth Consciousness and a group of Geth Individualists lead by Legion.

Thoughts?

#683
Inverness Moon

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implodinggoat wrote...

Legion A Geth Revolutionary in ME3?

While I was considering the nature of Legion's individuality the thought occured that it would be pretty badass to see the Geth fall into a civil war in ME3; between the original Geth Consciousness and a group of Geth Individualists lead by Legion.

Thoughts?

Near-zero percent chance of that happening. Individualism is something the geth were not created for. Hell, the current goal of the geth is unification. Legion may get some quirks from extended amounts of time away from the rest of the geth, but that doesn't mean he's going to turn around and start a war over individualism, nor would any other geth follow him.

Edit: And I just read your other post:

Legion whose isolation as a unique mobile platform has allowed for his individuality to begin to manifest itself since he has been designed to be capable of independent analysis and has ceased to have his individual judgements constantly overrided by the concensus of the Geth although whenever he submits himself to form a concensus he is effectively submitting his individuality to be overrided by the conformity of the original Geth Consciousness.

I'm sorry, but that is a whole lot of nonsense. You don't understand how the geth work at all.

The geth build consensus by sharing information until they all agree on a course of action to take. They think at the speed of light, making this process extremely fast. There is no voting, and opinions are not ignored, they all come to agreement.

Legion's platform is only special because it can allow more than a thousand geth to reside within it at once, therefore its a network within itself and can maintain sentience independently.

The programs within that platform are no different than the rest of the geth save for their unique perspective. Legion is not going to suddenly become an individual, in fact he openly questions the judgement of those who value individuality on his loyalty mission.

Edit: I'd also like to point this theory on the human mind out: http://www.emcp.com/...c/reading12.htm

A preview: Google Books preview

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 juin 2010 - 03:53 .


#684
Whatever Works

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NOt the purpose of their creation, but we do know that they have some conflict as at times they cannot reach consensus. One more "math error" and you would never know what the outcome would come about for a certain set of programs.

#685
Nightwriter

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Andrew_Waltfield wrote...

Emotions existing or lack of does not mean that they don't have life. It
isn't an defining charateristic, as an flower does not emotions, yet it
is considered living. The same thing as an conciousness or an organic
brain, an flower exists, but it has no brain.


Right, but we're not talking about whether or not they have life. They clearly do (others may argue this, but I certainly don't).

It's about which you would side with in war, and why.

I would side with the quarians purely because of what they have to lose. They have more to lose than the geth, because the geth can't feel, because they're a collective to whom individual losses mean little.

implodinggoat wrote...

There Are Only 3 Geth

The Geth do appear to be rational beings which possess both an objective capacity for logic as well as a subjectively motivated self interest; but their extreme and absolute conformity must be weighed when considering their ultimate worth as a race since in reality there have only been three Geth individuals...

#2:  The Geth Heretic consciousness which diverged from the original Geth Consciousness and allied itself with the Reapers.


Your whole post was a very interesting read, but I have a question about this in particular. Number 2.

You say there are only 3 geth, and that all the true geth make up one of those three. But if all the true geth are only one geth, how are they able to have differing opinions? How are they able to disagree about something?

#686
Andrew_Waltfeld

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Sudden urge to whip out my theory on the individual geth program and how it operates within the geth collective. >.<


Nightwriter wrote...

Andrew_Waltfield wrote...

Emotions
existing or lack of does not mean that they don't have life. It

isn't an defining charateristic, as an flower does not emotions, yet it

is considered living. The same thing as an conciousness or an organic
brain,
an flower exists, but it has no brain.


Right, but we're
not talking about whether or not they have life. They clearly do
(others may argue this, but I certainly don't).

It's about which
you would side with in war, and why.

I would side with the
quarians purely because of what they have to lose. They have more to
lose than the geth, because the geth can't feel, because they're a
collective to whom individual losses mean little.


Ah I would save the quarians by allying myself with the geth, get them to realize the quarians are just acting like idiots and convince them to help me save the quarians from themselves. If I can do that, then the quarians foolishness will be under control and I can miminize casulities on both sides.

If I can not get the geth to help, then I am not helping the quarians except the ones who don't want to go to war. If the ones want to go to war, then let them go die but will not stand idly by as they bring millions of quarians down with them.

and if I can not do that, I will... come up with plan C on the spot.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 09 juin 2010 - 04:50 .


#687
Aniki_21

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I'm sorry but sci fi or no the idea of viewing machines as actual people is just crazy.

#688
Andrew_Waltfeld

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Aniki_21 wrote...

I'm sorry but sci fi or no the idea of viewing machines as actual people is just crazy.



I am sure people thought it was crazy too in the 1940's that cellphones would be the size of your palm as well. Opinons change over time.

#689
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I kind of have this suspicion that in ME3 Legion will be cast out of the main geth collective on account of him being changed too radically by his extended isolation in that unique platform. Perhaps they'll fear that is developing individuality is a threat to their consensus.

He'll get the Vault Dweller treatment in other words.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

I am sure people thought it was crazy too in the 1940's that cellphones would be the size of your palm as well. Opinons change over time.



You know people nowadays might think cannibalism is crazy but opinions change over time.

Modifié par Shandepared, 09 juin 2010 - 04:59 .


#690
Onyx Jaguar

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They need to respect our cultural values. We're letting good meat go to waste over here.

#691
Inverness Moon

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Shandepared wrote...

I kind of have this suspicion that in ME3 Legion will be cast out of the main geth collective on account of him being changed too radically by his extended isolation in that unique platform. Perhaps they'll fear that is developing individuality is a threat to their consensus.

Geth do not experience fear. While it might make for an interesting plot, I don't see how that could happen. The geth welcome knowledge, and they would not know what Legion experienced until he already shared it with them. It would be too late then. But really I don't think Legion's time away from the geth would be much of a problem.

#692
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Inverness Moon wrote...

Geth do not experience fear.


Oh for ****'s sake, kiss my ass.

#693
Andrew_Waltfeld

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This is my theory on the geth, as you can tell, I decided to post it. I went thru it and removed any parts that were ir-revelant since it was related to the early topic discussion of if the geth were truely alive and sapient at the time. So some context might be mis-placed a little, but meaning is still the same, I chopped it down from it's orginal size removing quite an few large paragraphs that were talking about the geth being alive and sapient.

            Simulating Life? Not quite so. I don't really believe it's simulation of life, but then again, are we just simply simulating life? once you remove our sensors, we are much like the geth are we not? just an collection of brain cells talking to each other, wondering why the hell it's dark in here, we can't feel or smell anything. We would be just like the geth, millions of simulating programs that work together to form one concious. In reality, the geth are groups of people at this point, the main collective, herectics and legion. Legion is seperate because he was built to operate seperately from the geth, even when he can not return to the geth... LAN so to speak, he can operate on his own.

Another analogy would be to put legion as the best and brightest that the geth had to offer. Legion could be considered an proto-type of the new geth. And the geth are obiviously building something that will ensure the surivival of their race, a dyson sphere. That is their manhatten project, what they wanted to do was get alway from Mass Relays, get away from reaper technology and do something to unifiy their race.

As we have seen, the geth can modify and build much like we do, have unique perspectives since they can share all their perspectives, however the programs are indeed individual. To be honest, I envy the geth, since they can argue, bicker over an decision for 30 seconds, come back with an census and the decision has been made, while we take days upon days just to form an concensus. I don't believe the geth are just a computer program because what I get from legion is that an individual program may share it's perspective, but it's not uploaded into another program and just accepted, the program that accepts the upload more than likely retains it's individuality.

My best guess is that the individual programs are much like multiple partitions on an computer harddrive.

You have Drive letter C: where you keep your main functions - heart, brain, blood pumping etc.

Then you have drive letter D: this is where you think all the time, where you install all your programs etc etc. This is where you keep your Ideals, Beliefs etc.

You have drive letter E: Where you sample data, choosing to incorporate it into your drive letter D partition or not.
Because untill you accept the data and transfer it over to drive letter D, you have not truely accepted it. Much like a person agreeing with something in one case, but is still conflicted, keeps it to himself. The individual geth program retains it's individiuality, but at the same time, shares it's perpective freely, as there is no social stigma in the geth for whatever views or opinons you may have. Since they value each unique perspective and opinon, the more you have, the more infomation you have on the matter.

Because of this multiple drive parition analogy we have, it would mean the geth individual programs operate much like we do, as our brains are divided into "seperate" partitions that do certain functions, like art, math, and then the basic instinict function - the brain stem. This is also how we don't go all art or math and leave everything else behind, it's like an buffer to make sure you don't accept any viruses, or bad ideas, which is probably why the quarians suck at converting the geth back to their ways with computer viruses.

But this also means that like on legion loyality mission, we can get conflicts of concensus, like to nuke the geth or brain wash them.

Now another reason why I believe it is like this is because legion said that an program could be in the miniority with it's decision, but it could ask other programs and see if they accept and gain momuntem that way. If true democracy had an name, it would be the geth collective. My guess is that Soverign inplanted one geth with what he wanted and had that program go back to geth collective - then start to sprout it's ideas, and slowly turn some of the population of the geth into accepting this idea. Much like an prophet coming back and starting an reilgion.

My guess is that the computer virus the herectics had made was something the geth really feared - it was an convicing arguement to join the reapers designed specifically for the geth. It would basically shoe-horn them into accepting the reapers as the only alternative to surivival. When your trying to convince someone to join you, you give analogies, or remind them of something that is important to them etc. You don't go to an farmer and complain about grocery prices, unless you want to talk about the quality of the food that was grown. You give the farmer an arguement he can relate to easily, and you want him to do X instead of Y.

Now, your probably wondering why I am going after the individual programs. Because this is an individual program that has different beliefs, qualms, perspective then the other geth programs around it. Each program is easily unquie by now. Some Geth programs might be better builders, or some might have developed better analgorims for handingly an sinper rifle easier then most geth. Much like the cells in your brain are each unique in their composition, positioning, and how many connectors to other neurons it has. While one can judge an entire society, you can not judge it accurately, without taking it apart and seeing the people underneath.

The Geth are an sophiscated society - they been growing and expanding rapidly for 300 years, and are full of curious programs. To be honest, I see the geth more human like then anything else. They are basically humans from the early ages wandering around the world trying to understand everything. Then they got beaten by an stick and realized that they defend themselves, and isolated themselves from the hurtful galaxy that they didn't understand. Even FTL speeds or discussion doesn't give you insight when the only opinon you have is your own. So the geth began development, learning how to incorporate more and more multiple programs in each platform, and developing defenses against the world outside.

A perfect song for the geth in this would probably be "What's This?" - From Nightmare on Christmas. Throughout the game we see legion asking questions about STD's, drugs, drinks, why people do this or that. Making random observations from their 1110ish program perspective. He is there to do- learn and help sheppard defeat the old machines. They recongize that they are indeed old, but they call them machines. Machines is an genertic termnology, meaning something that can be applied to both humans and geth alike, including the reapers. The reapers are much like geth I suspect, except that they have gone the path of the herectics and because of that, perhaps instead of being just an mad prophet - have gone to godhood. Much like a mad prophet thinks he is the will of the gods.

that is my perspective anyway on the geth individual program and random tid-bits of other opinonated infomation.

#694
Andrew_Waltfeld

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Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

I am sure people thought it was crazy too in the 1940's that cellphones would be the size of your palm as well. Opinons change over time.



You know people nowadays might think cannibalism is crazy but opinions change over time.


yup, imangine being stuck on an island with no food, your buddy is going to look mighty tasty in an few days. However opinons and perspectives are all fluid, they can radically change in the matter of seconds or slowly edge over to a new one.

#695
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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

yup, imangine being stuck on an island with no food, your buddy is going to look mighty tasty in an few days. However opinons and perspectives are all fluid, they can radically change in the matter of seconds or slowly edge over to a new one.


That's not what I mean. I see no reason cannibalism shouldn't be legalized between consenting adults. Frankly, what is an "adult"? Maybe there's a lot we should be discussing, uncomfortable as it might be.

#696
Inverness Moon

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Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Geth do not experience fear.


Oh for ****'s sake, kiss my ass.

Is there a problem? :huh:

#697
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apparently.

#698
ShamieGTX

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UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Why do some of you consider emotion to be an important aspect of a "living" entity?(genuine curiosity)

We do not "feel" pain, we experience functions of our "programming". If A punches B, B won't truly "feel" pain. B will react to the stimuli of her/his nociceptors in the peripheral nervous system. This is all electrical signals and chemical substances. Love is no different. We do not truly "feel" love.
Dopamine, Estrogen, nerve growth factors(NGF), Norepinephrine, Oxytocin, Serotonin, Testosterone and Vasopressin are what we call "love". The most important ones are NGF, Oxytocin and Serotonin. Exactly why they do what they do is not really known. But they are the reasons we "feel"/"experience" love.

We do not "feel". We "feel" because our brains tell us to "feel". We experience the consequences of different stimuli, only made possible through our biological "programming". If an AI is programmed to "feel", are those emotions any different? If they are, in what way?


Sorry what? my mind melted when I read it....I think i just took Chemistry 101...

#699
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He was making it as complicated as possible on purpose, with the intent of proving that Shandepared doesn't know everything.

#700
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bobobo878 wrote...

He was making it as complicated as possible on purpose, with the intent of proving that Shandepared doesn't know everything.


An ignoble quest doomed from the outset.