752 réponses à ce sujet

[ObserverStatus]

Clearly he'll have to do better than explaining the mechanics of the peripheral nervous system.

[Teknor]

I don't get it why some people are so inclined to belive that brain is some holy box, unfathomable and unreplicable by mechanical means ? We got dialysis to replicate our kidneys and so on what's so different about the brain ?

[tenshi_no_hone]

And why does explaining the mechanisms of the nervous system somehow negate the reality of a sensation?

Which neurotransmitters are used makes no difference to the question of the validity of feelings . The concept of feelings was defined by us humans; based on the experiences of these interacting neurocircuits. What was described is the definition of feelings, as it is these that the very definition of the word is based on.

Regardless of the means by which something happens, the event still has happened - how it did makes no difference whatsoever to this fact.

Modifié par tenshi_no_hone, 09 juin 2010 - 08:53 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

Teknor wrote...

I don't get it why some people are so inclined to belive that brain is some holy box, unfathomable and unreplicable by mechanical means ? We got dialysis to replicate our kidneys and so on what's so different about the brain ?

That's easy. Humans like to think their minds are some special case.

Which is perfectly understandable, because if we aren't special, then it really really sucks for us philosophically.

[Vaenier]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

That's easy. Humans like to think their minds are some special case.

Which is perfectly understandable, because if we aren't special, then it really really sucks for us philosophically.

I know exactly what its like to know your life is meaningless. I understand why most people wish to be ignornant to it. I wish I could be ignorant to it again. :'(

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

yup, imangine being stuck on an island with no food, your buddy is going to look mighty tasty in an few days. However opinons and perspectives are all fluid, they can radically change in the matter of seconds or slowly edge over to a new one.

That's not what I mean. I see no reason cannibalism shouldn't be legalized between consenting adults. Frankly, what is an "adult"? Maybe there's a lot we should be discussing, uncomfortable as it might be.

I dunno if it should be legal, considering cannibalism involves two people, one of whom may or may not be consenting is probably why it's not.

[Pacifien]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...
And why does explaining the mechanisms of the nervous system somehow negate the reality of a sensation?

Defining concepts like feelings is really a very human outlook on how the nervous system even works anyway. From humans down to a simple virus (which doesn't even have a nervous system), the organism reacts to outside stimuli deemed harmful to their continued existence. If you put a geth over a lava pit, odds are it will react adversely to its sudden state. Define it as fear or simply a logical reaction to possible destruction.

If you talk to Legion about what might happen when the Heretics are added to the rest of the Geth Collective, you mention the possibility of it being a traumatic experience for all involved. Legion does not deny the possibility, he simply states he doesn't know what will happen.

In any case, we're back to trying to describe if the Geth are alive by the same standards as a human as if this were a crucial element in treating them as equals to other organic civilizations. And you'll be hard pressed to convince someone intent on view a Geth as a machine that, no really, they're like an organic!

I've admitted to siding more with the Geth, but I make no mistake that they are fundamentally different from a quarian or a human. They do not process their environment as we do. They do not think as we do. Aspects of them might be analogous, but they are still different.

This really should be true for all aliens we meet in the Mass Effect universe. People will be quick to point out where a quarian is similar to a human, but not so much on where a quarian can be different. This includes how an alien even thinks and interprets their environment. But this probably has more to do with the developers not wanting to delve into such topics for fear of making their aliens so weird the players wouldn't even want to identify with them.

[Inverness Moon]

Vaenier wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

That's easy. Humans like to think their minds are some special case.

Which is perfectly understandable, because if we aren't special, then it really really sucks for us philosophically.

I know exactly what its like to know your life is meaningless. I understand why most people wish to be ignornant to it. I wish I could be ignorant to it again. :'(

Bah, your life is as meaningless or as meaningful as you want it to be. 

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
Yes, I did feel pain. The sensation is quite real. With a geth I don't know how you'd replicate that sensation.
With a geth they don't need convincing to take action when they suffer damage. A geth simply detects damage to a joint and responds accordingly, it does't fall down and clutch there place where its kneecap used to be.

Haha okay. You feel because your programming tells you to. Then what is the difference between your programs and the programed emotions of an A.I? You both do exactly what your are programmed to do.
You detect damage to a jont a respond accordingly = screaming in pain(because you are compelled to) and then taking care of it/being professional and taking care of it immediately.

ShamieGTX wrote...
Sorry what? my mind melted when I read it....I think i just took Chemistry 101...

Oh, sorry. Simply put: You feel because your brain tells you to.

bobobo878 wrote...
He was making it as complicated as possible on purpose, with the intent of proving that Shandepared doesn't know everything.

Yes, obviously. Because proving something that is obvious is truly useful.

Tell me, what was complicated about it?

Shandepared
wrote...
An ignoble quest doomed from the outset.

No, but useless. Considering that I would have been successfull before I could even have a chance of beginning.

bobobo878 wrote...
Clearly he'll have to do better than explaining the mechanics of the peripheral nervous system.

The ganglia and nerves outside of the brain and the spinal cord are part of the PNS. The PNS connects your limbs and organs to the central nervous system.

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

And why does explaining the mechanisms of the nervous system somehow negate the reality of a sensation?

Which neurotransmitters are used makes no difference to the question of the validity of feelings . The concept of feelings was defined by us humans; based on the experiences of these interacting neurocircuits. What was described is the definition of feelings, as it is these that the very definition of the word is based on.

Regardless of the means by which something happens, the event still has happened - how it did makes no difference whatsoever to this fact.

It was not about that. Our emotions are programs. The emotions of an A.I are programs. What's the difference?

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 09 juin 2010 - 05:59 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
It's not the same. The sensation is a complex process caused by many things, materials which would not be present in a snythetic 'organism'. Screaming in pain does nothing to help you rectify the damage, it's a fluke of the way we're designed.

When my computer has a problem and can't detect the printer, do you think my computer feels the exact same numb sensation I do when my leg falls asleep?

An electronical signal is an electronical signal. The result is the same, the purpose behind it is the same. Why are the materials important to you?

There is a difference. Your computer does not have the same level of intelligence as a human.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 09 juin 2010 - 06:00 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

Vaenier wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

That's easy. Humans like to think their minds are some special case.

Which is perfectly understandable, because if we aren't special, then it really really sucks for us philosophically.

I know exactly what its like to know your life is meaningless. I understand why most people wish to be ignornant to it. I wish I could be ignorant to it again. :'(

In this respect, life is very much like the Chthulhu mythos - once you realize the Truth there is no going back from the abyss

Inverness Moon wrote...
Bah, your life is as
meaningless or as meaningful as you want it to be. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Existentialist scum! You guys are all cheaters.

[Inverness Moon]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Bah, your life is as meaningless or as meaningful as you want it to be. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Existentialist scum! You guys are all cheaters.

What is an existentialist?

[Mouton_Alpha]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Bah, your life is as meaningless or as meaningful as you want it to be. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Existentialist scum! You guys are all cheaters.

What is an existentialist?

A practitioner of existentialism. A philosophy that states that in the face of lack of any universal truth, it is up to the individual to give his life a meaning.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

An electronical signal is an electronical signal. The result is the same, the purpose behind it is the same. Why are the materials important to you?

They have a lot to do with how our brain interprets that signal.

If you ship an package with fedex or UPS, does it matter it to you what route it took to get there as long as it got there on the date you specified?

The other person is going to still get the package, regardless if you use UPS or Fedex.

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Mouton_Alpha
wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Bah, your life is as
meaningless or as meaningful as you want it to be. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Existentialist
scum! You guys are all cheaters.

What is an
existentialist?

A practitioner of existentialism. A
philosophy that states that in the face of lack of any universal truth,
it is up to the individual to give his life a meaning.

I personally follow this philosophy as well, an
person without motiviation is an extremely depressing person. To give
yourself purpose gives you motivation to live on, and thus you feel and
live better because of it. If life can't give it to you, then you make
it yourself.

Kindof like Furntinure shopping. If you can't find
the piece of furnature to fit into an corner at an store, you go buy the
wood and make it yourself. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 09 juin 2010 - 08:28 .

[SpectreSeven]

Geth of course. Quarians are too racist and brought the Morning War upon themselves. Now they expect everyone to pity them and give charity. The council was right to kick them out of the Citadel, and the only Quarian who has my respect is Admiral Koris. He is the only one willing to live peacefully with the Geth.

[Inverness Moon]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Bah, your life is as meaningless or as meaningful as you want it to be. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Existentialist scum! You guys are all cheaters.

What is an existentialist?

A practitioner of existentialism. A philosophy that states that in the face of lack of any universal truth, it is up to the individual to give his life a meaning.

I guess the geth fall into that category too.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

*Eye roll* Why do scientists bother with research when a shipping analogy would solve their problems just as well?

the point being, I think your making it sound overly more complex than it really is in terms of what the brain is doing. How it does it function is very complex yes, but the results are still the same regardless. The package gets there regardless if it's by airplane or truck/boat.

If the brain intecepts a signal for three things or reacts to the stimuli by doing 3 things, you could easily have an computer check or do 3 things signal that the printer is not responding.

edit -
Also you need research into know that it's an shipping analogy and not something else.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 09 juin 2010 - 09:22 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Shandepared wrote...

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

Haha okay. You feel because your programming tells you to. Then what is the difference between your programs and the programed emotions of an A.I? You both do exactly what your are programmed to do.
You detect damage to a jont a respond accordingly = screaming in pain(because you are compelled to) and then taking care of it/being professional and taking care of it immediately.

It's not the same. The sensation is a complex process caused by many things, materials which would not be present in a snythetic 'organism'. Screaming in pain does nothing to help you rectify the damage, it's a fluke of the way we're designed.

When my computer has a problem and can't detect the printer, do you think my computer feels the exact same numb sensation I do when my leg falls asleep?

Shand, screaming has nothing to do with fluke - it's called "socialising the pain" and it has everything to do with both mitigating and correcting the damage.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 09 juin 2010 - 11:27 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Shandepared wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Shand, screaming has nothing to do with fluke - it's called "socialising the pain" and it has everything to do with both mitigating and correcting the damage.

Explain that to me.

Socialing the pain means - "**** I'm hurt someone help me cause I don't know if this is gonna kill me".

Mitigating the damage: If you scream and someone comes (you mother for example) and she says: "ah little Billy are you ok?, what happened, what happened?" and little Billy says "pain, pain, blood, blood!!! help" and then mum wipes the blood away and says: "awww, poor boy, you just stapled your finger!... it's ok, shhhshhh, aww, poor boy i'll put a bandaid on" then little Billy is both soothed and has a bandaid. Don't underestimate the soothing - it's huge. The soothing mitigates the pain.

Correcting the damage: If your scream brings help from others, which you hope it will if you hit your foot with the axe while chopping wood, then if you pass out from blood loss someones gonna call 911 (you hope). So if you hadn't screamed and passed out from blood loss you're ****ed.

socialising the pain.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
Socialing the pain means - "**** I'm hurt someone help me cause I don't know if this is gonna kill me".

Mitigating the damage: If you scream and someone comes (you mother for example) and she says: "ah little Billy are you ok?, what happened, what happened?" and little Billy says "pain, pain, blood, blood!!! help" and then mum wipes the blood away and says: "awww, poor boy, you just stapled your finger!... it's ok, shhhshhh, aww, poor boy i'll put a bandaid on" then little Billy is both soothed and has a bandaid. Don't underestimate the soothing - it's huge. The soothing mitigates the pain.

Correcting the damage: If your scream brings help from others, which you hope it will if you hit your foot with the axe while chopping wood, then if you pass out from blood loss someones gonna call 911 (you hope). So if you hadn't screamed and passed out from blood loss you're ****ed.

socialising the pain.

so basically it's an mechaism to make sure that if you recieved too much damage, that another person or unit will help repair you? Sortof like an SOS beacon we activate when we're stranded in an dingy in the middle of the ocean and might be unable to help ourselves?