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[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Socialing the pain means - "**** I'm hurt someone help me cause I don't know if this is gonna kill me".

There are much better ways to do that. Crippling pain doesn't aid your ability to survive.


Regardless, none of this advances the idea that we should treat geth the way we do quarians or humans or turians. We already know from Legion that geth don't feel fear or remorse or pity and presumably pain. I would argue that if we can't hurt one then we can do to a geth whatever we want, including destroy them.

With that logic, if someone came up with a way to destroy someone's ability to feel pain or emotion, it would be okay to do with them what you want.

Anyhow, the geth are simply different than us, that difference is not an excuse for bad behavior towards them.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Anyhow, the geth are simply different than us, that difference is not an excuse for bad behavior towards them.

I agree.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

With that logic, if someone came up with a way to destroy someone's ability to feel pain or emotion, it would be okay to do with them what you want.

We could do anything we wanted to them and cause them no distress, true. However others would point out that they were normal prior to this point. They're in an abnormal state. It might not be that different from euthanasia.

That is a poorly constructed excuse. We evolved into what we are because abnormality allowed our ancestors to survive better, changing that attribute into something normal. Even then, you seem to imply that abnormality is inherently a bad thing. It is all a matter of perspective.

Shandepared wrote...

Geth are different, true, and that difference means a lot.

That difference means something different to those who judge others based on how others are different from themselves instead of based on their own merits. See my signature quote.

[Pacifien]

Oh my god, every time I think everyone has agreed to disagree, someone proves me wrong!

[Inverness Moon]

Pacifien wrote...

Oh my god, every time I think everyone has agreed to disagree, someone proves me wrong!

I just wanted to post that picture, honestly.

[megatron999]

I plan to side with the Quarrians purely for military reasons and I do not harbour any bad feelings towards the Geth. The Quarrians also have the biggest fleet and weaponary.



I think the Geth are like the Rachni they live in a hive mind state and so do not develop as individuals although the Quarrian scientist did mention Geth had developed higher brain functions making them difficult to rewrite. They also believe in Self Determination which is a wonderful concept.

[Mouton_Alpha]

I think we have reached quite unbreachable ideological barrier in this discussion, heh heh

[Pacifien]

megatron999 wrote...
I plan to side with the Quarrians purely for military reasons and I do not harbour any bad feelings towards the Geth. The Quarrians also have the biggest fleet and weaponary.

The Quarians have the biggest fleet, but that doesn't translate into the biggest military fleet. A good many of those ships are simply to house civilians.

Also, I haven't seen anything about the Quarians have the biggest weaponry either. I doubt there's a dreadnought in the fleet.

Plus, by Tali's own admission, many of the ships in the flotilla are in less than perfect condition. The Geth likely have more advanced ships, more advanced weapons, and all in much better condition. I think this is why Tali's father and Admiral Xen were working on methods to combat the Geth on a programming level, rather than working on ways to defeat them in a straight up fight. Even Kal'Reegar admits the Quarians wouldn't stand a chance in a straight up fight.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
I agree. Two fundamental differenet approaches to the geth question. We'll never agree, ever. This is why I don't bother trying to win people over to my argument, why I instead insult and berate them. It's pointless to try and convert people.

It's pointless to insult and berate them as well.

Well, it might make you feel better.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
It's pointless to insult and berate them as well.

It isn't pointless; I enjoy it.

You suck so hard sometimes.

[JaegerBane]

I'm not sure who I'd side with. I actually found myself heavily sympathising with the Geth in ME2 - the quarians, I find, tend to be saddled with a lot of irritating features. The fact that they seem to have a lot of leaders that are simply not fit to lead (nutters like Xen particularly) make me worry that the quarians are going to cling to their superstitions right when their ingenuity and expertise are needed most.

Quarians like Tali and Kal'Reegar are the reason why I would be loathe to go against the quarians. But on the other hand, the Geth have perfectly logical (and most importantly, compatible with the other races) goals - not to mention they'd be an asset against the Reapers, with their dislike of the Reaper's methodologies and their massive military strength.

I'd probably try to broker some sort of armistice. Ultimately, the current Quarian/Geth position is pointless, as there isn't any actual reason why they can't co-exist (hell, the geth have no need of the homeworld).

[megatron999]

Ultimately its who you can live with at the end of the day.



I would support the Quarrians because they have a larger fleet and would make better allies than the Geth.



As pacifen mentioned the Geth are more advanced but during the second world war the soviets heavily defeated the Germans because they outnumbered 10-1.



I do agree that the Geth are a race and sentient species but would the Geth automatically attack the Quarrians if they did give them back there homeworld as a measure of self defense?



I'm dead certain the quarrians would attack the Geth whether they did return there homeworld or not. People are not forgiving of being forced from their homes by there machines.



I can not see a peacful resolution to this conflict at all. I do admire and respect Legion and the Geth but my loyalties are with the Quarrians.



Also I will likely have two-three sheperds anyway 1 for the quarrians 1 for the Geth and the other an evil psychopath (just to annoy you all)

[Foolsfolly]

Peace between the two is clearly the best solution. On a practical level having two fleets is better than one that just got battered in a destructive war. On a moral level peace is better than war.



But if there is no way of avoiding the war and BioWare strips out any middle ground then the geth win my support. They're the innocent ones here. They defended themselves, never once incited the war since all they did was ask questions, and Legion on the Flotilla even admits that there could be peace only if the quarians wanted it. The quarians are the problem. They STILL want to go to war and think nothing of the sentient lifeforms they created.



They created life on accident but they FORMED it to serve their purposes and when it got a little too weird for them they tried to commit genocide. Not to put too much hyperbole into this thread but that sounds similar to the Reapers and their leaking technology to form sentient life to their task and commit complete genocide whenever they want. That's the quarians. They refuse to believe any life other than their own form of it is superior. Sovereign was the same way in thinking organic or synthetic life was inferior just because it was not the state of Reaper existence!



If it came to war it'd be Han'Gerrel, Dano'Xen, and whoever replaces Rael'Zorah who fired the first shot and the geth would again be the ones to defend themselves.

[Vaenier]

You should just let this topic die. It has past all logic and reasoning, and has come down to simply who you like more instead of who is the more just side, or who is the better side to help against the Reapers.

megatron999 wrote...

I would support the Quarrians because they have a larger fleet and would make better allies than the Geth.
As pacifen mentioned the Geth are more advanced but during the second world war the soviets heavily defeated the Germans because they outnumbered 10-1.

Geth have superior tech and superior numbers. Plus the ability to rapidly produce new units with they entirely automated industrial complex and advanced technology. So I dont understand your reasoning.

I do agree that the Geth are a race and sentient species but would the Geth automatically attack the Quarrians if they did give them back there homeworld as a measure of self defense?

You make no sense. If they peacefuly give them the homeworld, why would they attack it?

I'm dead certain the quarrians would attack the Geth whether they did return there homeworld or not. People are not forgiving of being forced from their homes by there machines.
I can not see a peacful resolution to this conflict at all. I do admire and respect Legion and the Geth but my loyalties are with the Quarrians.

Geth dont want to attack the Quarians. Its a faction of Quarians that wish to ensalve the Geth. Yet you side with the slavers even when you know this. interesting.

Modifié par Vaenier, 16 juin 2010 - 01:19 .

[megatron999]

The Quarrians don't want to enslave the Geth, that isa flawed argument the geth were machines when the Quarrians made them so how can they be slaves?



The Quarrians want their homeworld back and other terrortories. They geth would attack the quarrians if they felt threatened.



I don't quite trust the Geth as much as the Quarrians as I know who the bad eggs are e.g. admiral Xen etc... I would put a stop to the Quarrians attempting to regain control over the geth as this would be diasterous for Humanity.



At the same time i would give the quarrians back their homeworld and other terrortories and to stop the Geth from attacking them or becoming a major threat in the future station an army to defend them.

[EricHVela]

I now make Shepard choose to rewrite the Geth, rationalizing that the Heretics might have been "Indoctrinated" by Nazara introducing a negligible math error through their (Nazara's) transmissions, just like the virus they (Nazara) designed -- not unlike the biological indoctrination on sentients. I figure Shepard's undoing the damage and hope the Geth realize that.

If they realize their original indoctrination and the cure and forgive the second brainwashing to give them back the ability to make their own future, they hopefully may hold an organic as their hero and be open to peace with the Quarians. There will be some tension between both sides -- akin to racial tension that Humans and Turians (and Humans and Batarians) experience, but I think they can fight together against a common foe in ME3.

So I side with both of them and having no war.

If there is war, Geth will likely hate Shepard so there would be no chance to choose their side. Since the Quarians are toast in such a war (as they lost before the Geth evolved and have rather devolved themselves), I wouldn't try to support them ,either. I would choose neither.

[Shep309]

I'd support the Quarians, but I could go either way.



On one hand, when the Quarians realized the Geth had become sentient they shouldn't have tried to eradicate them and thus start the war in which they lost their homeworld.



On the other, as was said before the Geth have no need of the homeworld, heck if I remember right they don't even live planetside but rather in orbit. I also don't like the fact that having Geth as an ally could possiby lead to inaction due to their logic when it comes to making decisions. Sometimes if the odds are against success you need to try anyway, and I wouldn't want the Geth to not participate in the fight against the Reapers because it's not a logical thing to do.



I mean, how would they have resolved the issue of destroying the heretic Geth or rewritting them if sheppard hadn't been there? They were hopelessly deadlocked. I see them sitting around for years trying to figure out what to do before they make a decision.



Perhaps I'm wrong, but if it came down to taking one over the other, I'll take the Quarians. They're organic life, they actually have a stake in the outcome when the Reapers arrive. The Geth, while not agreeing with the Reapers, are not organic and therefore I'd think they'd be largely ignored by the Reapers until they became a nuisance, which their programming wouldn't allow because it wouldn't be logical.