174 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...
I actually believe in the Bang, just that there WAS a cause. If there was no planets, black holes, cells, comets, stars, NO TIME, ANYTHING. So if you admit remotes, televisions, toothbrushes, DVDs, change, and radios can't appear spontaneously, can the entire universe?

Who is claiming there isn't a cause for Big Bang? Who is claiming Big Bang happened spontaneously (i.e. by change, "just out of thin air"? You're the one making the assertion that that cause must have been God. Why? Why not something else? And what caused God, then? If you say God didn't have a cause because he's infinite or whatever, then the same could be applied to the universe, making God an irrelevant non-explanation.

[SkullandBonesmember]

cruc1al wrote...

Who is claiming there isn't a cause for Big Bang? Who is claiming Big Bang happened spontaneously (i.e. by change, "just out of thin air"? You're the one making the assertion that that cause must have been God. Why? Why not something else? And what caused God, then? If you say God didn't have a cause because he's infinite or whatever, then the same could be applied to the universe, making God an irrelevant non-explanation.

The Big Bang would have had to have something to cause it that exists OUTSIDE of time. That speaks for itself.

[cruc1al]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Who is claiming there isn't a cause for Big Bang? Who is claiming Big Bang happened spontaneously (i.e. by change, "just out of thin air"? You're the one making the assertion that that cause must have been God. Why? Why not something else? And what caused God, then? If you say God didn't have a cause because he's infinite or whatever, then the same could be applied to the universe, making God an irrelevant non-explanation.

The Big Bang would have had to have something to cause it that exists OUTSIDE of time. That speaks for itself.

Lol. And which group of physicists agrees with that? And even if it was so, why would it mean God did it? Just saying "that speaks for itself" is a very weak argument; I can only assume that's the best you can come up with. You think it's the only explanation, because you can't think of any other explanation. It's called an argument from personal incredulity.

AFAIK the current view of the big bang is that time as we know it started with the big bang. Time is inherently tied to space; no space, no time. If we accept that time indeed did begin with the big bang and that "before" it there was no time (before would of course be the wrong term, since it implies a linear time relationship), then whatever caused the big bang can't be outside of time. There is no outside, since time didn't exist.

Modifié par cruc1al, 30 mai 2010 - 01:54 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

 Shepard did say to someone at the beginning (Jacob?) that the last thing he remembers is the Normandy blowing up. This could be interpreted as the "I don't remember what being dead was like" answer your looking for OP.

Edit- I too, however, would have liked a full conversation about it with someone, even if it was just an elaborate "I don't remember" conversation. It wouldn't (imo) confirm or deny any religious beliefs. Benezia told Shepard that she didn't see a white light when she died, it would be interesting to have Shepard mention this somewhere. Not to mention the fact that if you romance Ashley in ME1 you are given the choice to have Shepard believe in god or not.

If you think about it, it would be easy to have Shepard address these things without making any specific conclusions. Not that I'll lose any sleep over it as it's not really a big deal to me. I'm not particularly that religious, but I find the topic of religion fascinating (I know many find it annoying).

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 30 mai 2010 - 02:16 .

[Pauravi]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

They don't, obviously, and no one suggested that.  They get invented by humans.  I'm not quite sure what relevance televisions have to the discussion.

They do obviously since atheists believe the Big Bang.

I actually believe in the Bang, just that there WAS a cause. If there was no planets, black holes, cells, comets, stars, NO TIME, ANYTHING. So if you admit remotes, televisions, toothbrushes, DVDs, change, and radios can't appear spontaneously, can the entire universe?

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous argument.  Remotes, TVs, DVD's, etc, and fundamentally different phenomena from a physics standpoint.  A planet can form spontaneously from the Big Bang, yes.  A remote control cannot, no. This has to do with conservation of energy, entropy, non-linear dynamics, and a host of other reasons.

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

The Big Bang would have had to have something to cause it that exists OUTSIDE of time. That speaks for itself.

Except that it doesn't.
In Relativity, objects are described by a 4-vector wherein time is one of the dimensions.  It is fundamentally tied to space.
Furthermore, having a cause that is "outside time" doesn't make any logical sense.  Time is a measure of the rate of change of a system.  If a system is outside time, this implies automatically that it is incapable of changing state in order to cause an event.

Modifié par Pauravi, 30 mai 2010 - 09:24 .

[Nizzemancer]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

obvious troll is obvious.

Troll, get out I'm ******.

NEWSFLASH:
Just because somebody says something you disagree with DOES NOT make them a troll.

NEWSFLASH: OP is obviously trolling trying to incite a religious/non-religous flamewar, regardless of my own or your opinion of what he's saying he's still trolling, get a clue...

[Nizzemancer]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

 if you romance Ashley in ME1 you are given the choice to have Shepard believe in god or not.

No that can just as well be shepard saying so to get into her pants/make her feel more comfortable

[Cra5y Pineapple]

In my opinion, there is a 1 in a 100000000 chance that if you'd die you'd remember what happened.
Who knows, Sheppy could've gone to heaven, he just didn't remember...

It's best Bioware do not make Shepard remember what happened to avoid religous contraversy.

[Vicious]

This turned into an awesome joke thread.

[Darker_than_black]

Every poster here is a blight upon the galaxy!



REPENT! THE END IS NIGH!

[SmokeyNinjas]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

So if you admit remotes, televisions, toothbrushes, DVDs, change, and radios can't appear spontaneously, can the entire universe?

:unsure:WTF mate go watch "into the universe with stephen hawking - the story of everything" you can find it on youtube.

[smudboy]

Nizzemancer wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

obvious troll is obvious.

Troll, get out I'm ******.

NEWSFLASH:
Just because somebody says something you disagree with DOES NOT make them a troll.

NEWSFLASH: OP is obviously trolling trying to incite a religious/non-religous flamewar, regardless of my own or your opinion of what he's saying he's still trolling, get a clue...

I disagree.  There's nothing wrong with wanting to give a character some depth, and a discussion or comment or inkling about the afterlife from Shepard would've given him/her much needed characterization: considering they're now Cyber Jesus.

[superimposed]

1: Near-death experiences are naught but chemical reactions, and they have been induced as part of Experiments which confirm this.

And the test subjects were perfectly healthy individuals who were not near death at the time of the experiment.



2: Let's look at your 'uncaused cause' issues, if the universe necessitates a creator then what created that creator? If your alt. Father doesn't require one, then why does the Universe?



3. Bioware avoided cliche (OMG WHITE LIGHT LOL), and the problem of picking which form of the afterlife they'd represent (Sexless bird people with harps, 72 virgins dressed in bedsheets, Beer Volcanoes and Hooker Factories etc.). So many choices to pick from, you know?

[Lumikki]

Vicious wrote...

This turned into an awesome joke thread.

Of course it did, there was never other option. Because OP did make assumption that game can have religous stuff. Most of companies don't touch with even stick religious stuff, because it allways ends in flame wars. Mostly because who's religous we talk, there is like 100's of different religion. There is three main subject what are avoided often.

1. Religous
2. Politics
3. Business

Because people have strong very different opinions about these.

So, when OP open his view point, it could not end any different way. I'm not sure was the OP seriously about it, but if he/she was, then I can only look my mouth open and wonder about people. This thread should never even exists and should have been closed by moderators as fast as possible. Because there is no point to bring someone personal religios believes in game situations.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 mai 2010 - 11:04 .

[Aradace]

superimposed wrote...

1: Near-death experiences are naught but chemical reactions, and they have been induced as part of Experiments which confirm this.
And the test subjects were perfectly healthy individuals who were not near death at the time of the experiment.

2: Let's look at your 'uncaused cause' issues, if the universe necessitates a creator then what created that creator? If your alt. Father doesn't require one, then why does the Universe?

3. Bioware avoided cliche (OMG WHITE LIGHT LOL), and the problem of picking which form of the afterlife they'd represent (Sexless bird people with harps, 72 virgins dressed in bedsheets, Beer Volcanoes and Hooker Factories etc.). So many choices to pick from, you know?

Not to mention that there are people (like myself) that if BioWare decided to go the route of basing it in Christianity/Catholosism, I probably would have avoided the game altogether

[superimposed]

Controversy is good but it has to be done well.

Religous controversy only works in Assassin's Creed because it is the main premise and not a throw away line.

That said, I don't see why it should be an issue at all. Quite frankly Shepard could have come out and said "I remember chocolate rivers and lollypop trees and naked eighteen year old schoolgirls" and it wouldn't have mattered one jot.

[Aradace]

superimposed wrote...

Controversy is good but it has to be done well.
Religous controversy only works in Assassin's Creed because it is the main premise and not a throw away line.
That said, I don't see why it should be an issue at all. Quite frankly Shepard could have come out and said "I remember chocolate rivers and lollypop trees and naked eighteen year old schoolgirls" and it wouldn't have mattered one jot.

You had my support at "naked eighteen year old school girls" 

[Ecael]

Proof that an afterlife exists after Shepard dies in Mass Effect 2:

http://img526.images...66/67159129.jpg

End of discussion.

[Ecael]

superimposed wrote...

Controversy is good but it has to be done well.
Religous controversy only works in Assassin's Creed because it is the main premise and not a throw away line.
That said, I don't see why it should be an issue at all. Quite frankly Shepard could have come out and said "I remember chocolate rivers and lollypop trees and naked eighteen year old schoolgirls" and it wouldn't have mattered one jot.

You had me at chocolate.

[Aradace]

Ecael wrote...

Proof that an afterlife exists after Shepard dies in Mass Effect 2:

http://img526.images...66/67159129.jpg

End of discussion.

Touche madam....touche

[superimposed]

You had me at chocolate.

The more I read that the description the less it reads like a parody and more like the Adult sequel to Willy Wonka.



And the original was horrifying enough.

[Aradace]

superimposed wrote...

You had me at chocolate.

The more I read that the description the less it reads like a parody and more like the Adult sequel to Willy Wonka.

And the original was horrifying enough.

Willy Wonka and the Chocolately Sex Factory?

[superimposed]

I just face-palmed so hard the power went out.

[cruc1al]

Ecael wrote...

Proof that an afterlife exists after Shepard dies in Mass Effect 2:

http://img526.images...66/67159129.jpg

End of discussion.

Lol... So shepard DID go to Afterlife after he died. And seems like Afterlife consists of Asari dancers who aren't even nude, pretty lame =S

[superimposed]

Seems more like hell to me with all that single, continuous loop of "doof doof doof doof".



Imagine that for eternity.