104 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

You know what I miss from some of the older CRPGs?  NPC death.  I miss having to actually go to a temple carrying your friend's body to get it resurrected if he got killed during an adventure - unless you were fortunate enough to have a rare and expensive magic item with limited charges you could carry along with you.

I miss running through half the underdark in BG2 with only 2 surviving party members, looking for some way to get them on their feet again - having to leave their equipment behind so I could carry their bodies without becoming cripplingly encumbered.  

The potential for NPC death made battles more suspenseful, because you knew if you messed up, didn't use your resources well, or just had some very bad luck you'd have to carry a dead body back to town and future battles would be that much more dangerous.  

I played once through BG2 never reloading for anything shy of the main character's death (and then because you had to reload in that event) and ended up having to leave one of my party members behind because we couldn't carry her and had no way of raising her - so she was lost to the party forever.  Roleplaying wise that carried some serious weight with it ... having to make a choice to leave one of your companions, knowing if you could just get her back to town in time you'd be able to save her ... 

With party members merely being knocked out now, and getting up again at the end of the battle, the combats seem less meaningful, as if there is less at stake.  

I realize, however, that having to constantly spend your coin to raise npcs can become a tedious and aggravating way to spend your time and money - especially since playing a game is meant to be fun.  But it would be nice to have that as an option - much the same way you can turn off friendly fire damage in the game, just click a box which either autowakes your party at the end of a fight or requires you resurrect them.  

Am I the only one who misses this?

[Thanatos45]

I can't remember having to carry your party members' bodies back to a temple if they fell... I mostly just reloaded or used raise dead or a rod of resurrection.

Anyway, yes, it does take away some of the realism (well, for as far as a game containing people that toss fireballs can be called realistic) and supense but I think I'd just reload if I lost a party member that way. Might as well respawn them to save you the hassle. 

Modifié par Thanatos45, 29 mai 2010 - 11:26 .

[gingerbill]

I'm glad they got rid off it , death didnt mean combat meant something it just meant a quick reload .

[Rolenka]

For most players, death penalties are meaningless if there's a "Load Last Save" button.

These days designers are favoring mechanics that let you keep going, reducing the amount of saving/loading players engage in.

[tmp7704]

Thanatos45 wrote...

Anyway, yes, it does take away some of the realism (well, for as far as a game containing people that toss fireballs can be called realistic)

Not to mention the very act of magically bringing your companions back to life can be hardly considered staple of realism itself.

DA doesn't have gods actively meddling in affairs of mortals hence  no temples performing miracles for some coin. So it isn't something they could put in the mechanics. I think they tried to add the "wounds" mechanics as replacement, with the idea a companion who 'died" would be far less effective in combat... but the minor effect of wounds and abundance of kits to remove them (as well as spells which do it) trivialize this, just like the pots and spammy heals trivialize the hp/mana mechanics.

[elearon1]

You're right, Magnum, I was recalling the few instances where you had to carry a body and mistaking them for the instances I had to make room for the important equipment from a fallen companion. (though when one of my companions died in that dimensional pocket and I couldn't get her out, she was dead forever when it closed) Even so, it made the death issue more meaningful.



And I'm not specifically talking about Dragon Age here TMP, but CRPGs in general.



And sure, you could always quickload, but any fight which actually cost you party members tended to be a serious battle and often one didn't want to do it all over again. (besides which, what if your last save was an hour back?)

[k9medusa]

I do miss death and have to rise one's henchman or one can not use them... Back on NWN 1 server, if you die then you two options --- wait for some kind soul (or a cleric) to rise you and that might cost them some coin OR take an XP / coin hit based on one's level when one has A LOT of coin (like 1 mill which takes over 6 months to get) -- OUCH! I do like that system and that can also work in the game like DAO...

[maxernst]

I wouldn't mind reintroducing character death if there were something in between dead and fully functional, which there really wasn't in most D&D-based RPG's. Some might have allowed unconscious for near-zero hit points, but in most cases, a hit that knocked you out killed you. That's not very realistic--in real battles the number of people killed instantly is small compared to the number incapacitated who may or may not die after the battle. And I think having people constantly being raised from the dead trivializes death more than the DAO system.

I would like a system where normally players get knocked out/incapacitated at 0 hit points and could be revived by appropriate spells, though they might continue to lose strength and die if not aided. Instant kills should be restricted to massive critical hits or extreme spell effects.

Death would be rare, but it should also be difficult to overcome.  Raising the dead should be at the very highest tier of spell power--after all what more awesome display of power can there be?  It shouldn't be something every village temple can do for you for a small donation. Only a very few special NPC's should be capable of doing it, and you'd either have to be of their religion and give a very large donation or perform a quest.

of course, in CRPG's, people will tend to just reload, so I suppose it's moot. But in a MMORPG/.Persistent World-type setting, I think that kind of death would add spice to the game.

Modifié par maxernst, 30 mai 2010 - 01:11 .

[Jack_Shandy]

Yeah, I miss having to reload every time a single party member died as well. Forcing you to make sure every single guy survived every single encounter was great. Really made you, uh, value their lives, hitting F9 to reload as they fell in battle over and over and over and over again, trying to win the battle perfectly.



You're obviously a pretty hardcore fan, and I think that might have coloured your views a bit. Call me a noob/wuss, but (at least in the early stages) I found that my companions just died like flies all over the place. To the extent that if I had dared to try going without quickloads I would have had to restart the game before long, trapped in the middle of a dungeon with a huge bunch of bad guys and not enough party members to help, having dropped huge bunches of equipment.



In fact, to entirely reveal the extent of my noobishness, I never even actually realised you could revive characters at temples. Why would you bother going through all that bother when the quick-reload key is right there?



For me, the Dragon age system just means a whole lot less frustration, even though my party members die as much as they did in BG. Some kind of system where a party member dies if they get a certain amount of injuries, though- I'd get behind that.

[grieferbastard]

The fact that your party members could effectively die is one of the things I enjoyed most about Darkspawn Chronicles. Mount and Blade does it for non-critical party members - a very nice touch and it's got a hardcore setting that can keep you from the quicksave/reload escape from the consequences of poor choices.



For perm death RP you need to either play tabletop or one of the handful of MUDS out there that still does it. It's not an idea that's going to fit well into this sort of game - expensive voice-acting, stories based around companions, etc. I'd like a compromise though. Some 'generic' companions, almost like summoned allies but soldiers/mages/rogues you can hire and help equip and who will level up over time. If they die you lose what you've invested in them.

[Mlai00]

Death in DAO? No thanks. Nobody (except you, it seems) would throw a companion into the nearest ditch, instead of just reloading.

And there is no such thing as "But what if you last saved hours ago?" In games like that, players quickly learn to save after every friggin' battle. And if they're in a particularly scary-looking dungeon, quicksave after every 5 steps.

The only way you're going to force deaths, is if you remove the reload feature. But then you can't have a game like DAO (or any Final Fantasy, etc). You would need generic party members like griefer suggested. But then you're playing Final Fantasy Tactics, etc... where party members are just your pawns on a board... which neutralizes the original point of having death, i.e. making deaths impact you.

[elearon1]

Ah, but the possibility of npcs you care about actually dying is what makes the experience mean something. Like I said, it is not for everyone and as such there should be an option to turn it on or off. But this is moot in DA:O because there is no one, at all, who can raise the dead (I actually like the idea of making it difficult to accomplish, a quest in itself) and what I am most certainly not supporting is permadeath for your party members. (unless the situation makes it unavoidable and you don't want to reload for rp reasons)

[soteria]

Companions dying in BG wasn't meaningful to me--it meant only that I needed to rest and resurrect the fallen. If you call that "meaningful," fine. I call it annoying. Permadeath because Aerie has no HP and likes to get crit-gibbed is even more annoying. If I ever want permadeath, I'll go replay Nethack or Angband, thank you.

[wanderon]

I like the idea of perma-death myself and I also like the old style carry the body to the temple if you want to raise them (and if you have enough cash to do so) -

Some of the most adrenaline pumping exciting times I ever had in a computer game were playing various no-reload campaigns in the IE games (BG series, IWD series) where death meant game over instead of a ho hum reload and thus every battle really meant something.

To me the whole concept of reloading until you "win" just trivializes the whole concept of "winning" or "beating" the game. It feels like asking for a re-deal every time you get a lousy hand at cards -  or rerolling the dice when you land on Boardwalk (Thats from an old board game called Monopoly for those who don't recognize it ).

Yes I understand that those examples are games that have you competing against others but in CRPGs I consider the computer and it's system of manipulating my characters foes and the dangerous world around me to be the "other players" so why should I get a "do over" every time I fail to meet whatever challenge is in front of me. As a result I tend to play with very minimal reloads - never reloading just because a companion died (in games where they could) and instead dealing with the results in whatever manner the game has given me (going off to the temple - carrying a rod of rez, having a cleric capable of raising dead in the party etc.)
Even playing out battles as long as any character was still standing (as opposed to automatically reloading when things start to go south) led to some very memorable accomplishments.
I recall an IWD battle where 5 of 6 party members had fallen leaving only the rogue to deal with a handful of fairly powerful enemies that were left. Running and hiding and then sneaking and backstabbing making use of the cover in the area (with lots of pausing to lay out the strategic moves like getting some potions from a dead companions body after leading the enemy away from it but not using cheesy tactics like exiting the area to heal then returning in full health) he finally took out the last of them. I was pumped!!!

Then he walked around and gathered their gear stashing it in a convienent container and keeping only a bit of armor and a weapon for each of his companions (if he could carry them with the weight restriction) and he headed off to town to bring them back to life.

In spite of the fact that this solution pretty much wiped out the party cash reserve (needed to sell some pretty good items) and thus made the game more difficult for the next few areas as a result still was preferable to me than any "do-over" would have ever been. The satisfaction that successfully beating those last few enemies with the odds stacked against me and bringing the party back to fight another day has stuck in mind for years.
 
It's part of what "roleplaying" means to me in an RPG I guess - taking whatever lumps come along and still making progress in spite of "mistakes" or difficulties caused by my characters carelessness or attitude rather than reloading every situation/conversation until I get the "right" result so I can then move on.

No doubt this sort of playstyle is not for everyone and games are making it more and more difficult to play in "Ironman" fashion at all - but I suspect the OP is less alone than he thinks...

[k9medusa]

This is how I play also. Long time ago, I really really cheated in NWN 1(giving myself 66 points in every stat) Then I find out, the game is no longer fun any more, I was just too powerful from the get - go Then I started to learn the value of leveling very slowly and earn the "right" to became a demi - god The road is what is fun not the end. Just like wanderon, some of my best game times when I beat battles with odds are stack against me it even funny and I won after long, hard battle. I, too, remember pen and paper days and how it is based on dice rolls -- some the of epic fails where so funny (and painful) -- how I miss those days. To me, most of today's video games has lost their magic because they are too easy and they do not make you work for the gaol. I know some players are even hardcore then I, but after playing this type of game for 15 years -- one learns the value of the road, not just the end.

[wanderon]

Indeed I have far more unfinished games than finished ones especially those no reload IE  games I played which I have never finished sucessfully sometimes dying within the first few hours of play . 

  I have reached the final battle in No reload games a couple times. 

Once in BG1 in a no reload "speed" game where I faced the final battle in 33 game days and lost (I reloaded and beat the battle the second time but of course that one didn't count). 

 Once in IWD2 in a "No Reload/ No Raise dead" campaign when I lost 5 of 6 party members in the
prelude to the final battle and due to the restrictions I had set on myself for replacing dead members (with other random available members at specific spots)  I could not replace them becuase my character was transported directly to the final confrontation when I attempted to exit the prelude area thus forcing me to face the final battle with a solo barbarian - who lasted longer than I thought he might but not long enough.

I have some vague plans for a No Reload DA campaign as well once I finish more or less "normally" with another character or two - (I currently have one character who finished DA:O and is part way into DA:A and about 10 other more or less "active" characters at various parts of DA:O).

I'm thinking No Reloads (except for crashes) and if the PC dies in battle it's game over or perhaps only if the entire party dies - I think you could just remove any party members who die if you wanted to add a No raise dead restriction as well but if so then you better make a character who can finish the game as a solo.

[FBG_Loke]

wanderon wrote...

I'm thinking No Reloads (except for crashes) and if the PC dies in battle it's game over or perhaps only if the entire party dies - I think you could just remove any party members who die if you wanted to add a No raise dead restriction as well but if so then you better make a character who can finish the game as a solo.

I think trying to do this for me just wouldn't work. I already dislike the beginning campaigns enough just from a few playthroughs where I didn't like my character and started over. To have to restart and play the intros every time my character died? The game would end up shelved pretty quickly.

[elearon1]

>> he finally took out the last of them. I was pumped!!! <<



That's what I'm talking about! This was an awesome and memorable experience that you still recall years later.



I'm not saying play an Iron Man game where you don't reload even if *you* die - merely no reload for other reasons. (after all, if I've put hours and hours into a character I don't want to have to start from the beginning again - that is even a little too hardcore for me)

[JBurke]

You're not alone at all. But that era is over and this new age of "player friendly gameplay" is here to stay. It's not about gameplay these days, it's about trophies/achievements on multi-platform games that everybody can play in larger markets without being scared away by the prospect that one might actually have to do some math and strategy.

Because death doesn't happen in battle, you just get knocked out.... that is, of course, unless the whole party gets knocked out because if that happens THEN you die.

Modifié par JBurke, 30 mai 2010 - 10:48 .

[Addai]

elearon1 wrote...

You know what I miss from some of the older CRPGs?  NPC death.  I miss having to actually go to a temple carrying your friend's body to get it resurrected if he got killed during an adventure - unless you were fortunate enough to have a rare and expensive magic item with limited charges you could carry along with you.

I miss running through half the underdark in BG2 with only 2 surviving party members, looking for some way to get them on their feet again - having to leave their equipment behind so I could carry their bodies without becoming cripplingly encumbered.  

The potential for NPC death made battles more suspenseful, because you knew if you messed up, didn't use your resources well, or just had some very bad luck you'd have to carry a dead body back to town and future battles would be that much more dangerous.  

I played once through BG2 never reloading for anything shy of the main character's death (and then because you had to reload in that event) and ended up having to leave one of my party members behind because we couldn't carry her and had no way of raising her - so she was lost to the party forever.  Roleplaying wise that carried some serious weight with it ... having to make a choice to leave one of your companions, knowing if you could just get her back to town in time you'd be able to save her ... 
 

Am I the only one who misses this?

(husband posting)

I actually found this made combat more ritualized for me.    I ended up develoing elaborate buff protect rituals before combat where a mage and a cleric/ druid began casting protects: from fear, petrification, death, energy, fire etc. on all the party members, starting with the spells that had the longest duration and ending with the ones that had a duration only in rounds.

So the knockout does remove the necessity of that which some people would find tedious.   Those statue spells are especially nasty if you didn't think ahead about preparing for them!

Modifié par Addai67, 30 mai 2010 - 11:46 .

[HarryDresden]

Being down one party member alone can, and should, make the rest of the plot-line too hard to complete. I wouldn't want to endure some long trek to get them revived either then having to trek back to where I was. I'd just consider that battle a tactical failure and reload.

I have no issues with reloading and I've done so when I thought I could have done better (used less potions, done it quicker, had a better strategy). 

There's always a tension between realism/believability and playability/entertainment not only in gaming but really in all fiction based entertainment.

Modifié par HarryDresden, 30 mai 2010 - 11:58 .

[Tirigon]

It doesn´t make sense that your characters die just like that. I mean, they´re heroes. Heroes don´t die because you make a mistake in some random fight. A hero dies - if only - because of a cutscene where he´s fighting an entire army alone, or when he blows up a brighde to block 100000 enemies from invading and has to stay back defending the charges........

[Tirigon]

JBurke wrote...

You're not alone at all. But that era is over and this new age of "player friendly gameplay" is here to stay. It's not about gameplay these days, it's about trophies/achievements on multi-platform games that everybody can play in larger markets without being scared away by the prospect that one might actually have to do some math and strategy.

Because death doesn't happen in battle, you just get knocked out.... that is, of course, unless the whole party gets knocked out because if that happens THEN you die.

Makes sense, imo. In swordfights it is quite usual that the enemy is knocked out heavily wounded and not killed outright, so you can help your allies if that happens.

Also, your healer would prevent them from dying with his magic, wouldn´t she?

[Rhys Cordelle]

And I think having people constantly being raised from the dead trivializes death more than the DAO system.

^This.