104 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

>> Those statue spells are especially nasty if you didn't think ahead about preparing for them! <<



Statues, disintegrate, imprisonment, illithid brain eating, charm (had a beholder charm a character and he just left the group); there were many ways in BG2 that one could die permanently - and again, I liked this, it captured the feel of the pnp games it was emulating.



>>Heroes don´t die because you make a mistake in some random fight<<



But you become a hero by surviving and prospering - you shouldn't simply get a sign that says "hero: plot protected" when you begin your adventure ... where is the accomplishment in that?

[Khayness]

Yeah, sadly it would mean instant reload.

Few fights were that hard when I had to carry the bodies to revive, because it still worth it compared to retry the fight again. The basement demon in BG:ToSC with silence and the insta gib disease what reborn from the cult followers after each kill, so you had to kill them first while he was maiming you for instance, hardest mofo I've ever encountered, The Demogorgon had nothing on that bastard.

[Sylixe]

It's possible for your party to all die in DAO? Hell you have to have some REALLY bad luck just to see one person die in the group even on nightmare. The death system is not really a viable option anymore with fast saves and reloads on a hot key. Making the game more difficult though in the sense that the mob AI actually plays smart would be a better use of developer resources.

[grieferbastard]

I understand completely that many, even most people, don't want something that difficult. That's why games are what they are.

However, there are a good core of people who do enjoy a bit more risk to their games. It's like mountain climbing. Suppose you were immortal and totally immune to harm, endlessly strong and tireless. You could trot up Mount Everest and enjoy the view. Hey, got to look gorgeous up there! Maybe even make a weekend of it, a nice and enjoyable escape. Everyone would do it, no big deal. It's like saying you went to a nice place for dinner - nothing exceptional but at least a bit unusual. Compare that to actually climbing Mt. Everest for real. There is a lot of risk involved, a lot of work and a lot of effort but the comperable sense of accomplishment? It's like achieving something dramatic, something worthwhile, compared to going to Taco Bell for lunch. Yes, I like T-Bell for lunch sometimes. It's enjoyable.

It's not really an accomplishment however.

People who really want a challenge in their games and draw a sense of accomplishment from that are a seriously small niche market however. We need to accept that and find it where we can. It's not going to happen with a major publisher. Try Mount & Blade or Arma II. It's a different niche.

[Tirigon]

elearon1 wrote...


But you become a hero by surviving and prospering - you shouldn't simply get a sign that says "hero: plot protected" when you begin your adventure ... where is the accomplishment in that?

But a hero CAN´T die to a group of Darkspawn. And you are a hero from the start in DAO. The Grey Warden´s don´t recruit you because you´re pretty, but because you´re damn good at killing things.....

[Tirigon]

grieferbastard wrote...

I understand completely that many, even most people, don't want something that difficult. That's why games are what they are.

However, there are a good core of people who do enjoy a bit more risk to their games. It's like mountain climbing. Suppose you were immortal and totally immune to harm, endlessly strong and tireless. You could trot up Mount Everest and enjoy the view. Hey, got to look gorgeous up there! Maybe even make a weekend of it, a nice and enjoyable escape. Everyone would do it, no big deal. It's like saying you went to a nice place for dinner - nothing exceptional but at least a bit unusual. Compare that to actually climbing Mt. Everest for real. There is a lot of risk involved, a lot of work and a lot of effort but the comperable sense of accomplishment? It's like achieving something dramatic, something worthwhile, compared to going to Taco Bell for lunch. Yes, I like T-Bell for lunch sometimes. It's enjoyable.

It's not really an accomplishment however.

People who really want a challenge in their games and draw a sense of accomplishment from that are a seriously small niche market however. We need to accept that and find it where we can. It's not going to happen with a major publisher. Try Mount & Blade or Arma II. It's a different niche.

This is a typical elitist "I´m so much more hardcore than you!" attitude. So basically you are saying people who don´t want to loose partymembers permanently are stupid noobs who only play on casual? Well you´re wrong.

But the DAO combat system just isn´t able to make something like that funny.
Recent example: I only play on Nightmare and tried out different difficulty mods because I find DAO generally way too easy. But then I met a group of lieutenants that were harder than even Gaxkang because they resisted 90% of my spells and the Archer hit for 150 with each arrow. 2 shots and my main char was dead.
I really wouldn´t want to have to start anew only because some bug in the enemy´s strength calculation makes a common, no-name enemy stronger than the hardest bosses in the game........

[BomimoDK]

NPC deaths would elevate the difficulty of the game and challenge that part of the community who are bothered by limited difficulty. it would be harder to add than just a checkbox since it would require some ressurection mechanic and the lore written to fit it too. it will never be added to DA1 but we can hope they can still make it to add that checkbox and the lore for it.

[BomimoDK]

Tirigon wrote...

grieferbastard wrote...

I understand completely that many, even most people, don't want something that difficult. That's why games are what they are.

However, there are a good core of people who do enjoy a bit more risk to their games. It's like mountain climbing. Suppose you were immortal and totally immune to harm, endlessly strong and tireless. You could trot up Mount Everest and enjoy the view. Hey, got to look gorgeous up there! Maybe even make a weekend of it, a nice and enjoyable escape. Everyone would do it, no big deal. It's like saying you went to a nice place for dinner - nothing exceptional but at least a bit unusual. Compare that to actually climbing Mt. Everest for real. There is a lot of risk involved, a lot of work and a lot of effort but the comperable sense of accomplishment? It's like achieving something dramatic, something worthwhile, compared to going to Taco Bell for lunch. Yes, I like T-Bell for lunch sometimes. It's enjoyable.

It's not really an accomplishment however.

People who really want a challenge in their games and draw a sense of accomplishment from that are a seriously small niche market however. We need to accept that and find it where we can. It's not going to happen with a major publisher. Try Mount & Blade or Arma II. It's a different niche.

This is a typical elitist "I´m so much more hardcore than you!" attitude. So basically you are saying people who don´t want to loose partymembers permanently are stupid noobs who only play on casual? Well you´re wrong.

But the DAO combat system just isn´t able to make something like that funny.
Recent example: I only play on Nightmare and tried out different difficulty mods because I find DAO generally way too easy. But then I met a group of lieutenants that were harder than even Gaxkang because they resisted 90% of my spells and the Archer hit for 150 with each arrow. 2 shots and my main char was dead.
I really wouldn´t want to have to start anew only because some bug in the enemy´s strength calculation makes a common, no-name enemy stronger than the hardest bosses in the game........

i see what you're saying, but they DID call this a successor to the most
hardcore and challenging CRPG of the past and this decade. they could
at least make it possible to chose to play with what resembles tha
equation. that includes ressurection or chunkification (real permanent
death). a checkbox and some lore would do the trick and he's right to
come to Bioware for this since this used to be their area. and you need to chill... stop being so offensive just because you're hiding behind the internet.
it would not hurt you in any way if this was either a checkbox or disabled on easy anyway. control your temper.

Modifié par BomimoDK, 31 mai 2010 - 10:32 .

[Tirigon]

BomimoDK wrote...

i see what you're saying, but they DID call this a successor to the most
hardcore and challenging CRPG of the past and this decade. they could
at least make it possible to chose to play with what resembles tha
equation. that includes ressurection or chunkification (real permanent
death). a checkbox and some lore would do the trick and he's right to
come to Bioware for this since this used to be their area. and you need to chill... stop being so offensive just because you're hiding behind the internet.
it would not hurt you in any way if this was either a checkbox or disabled on easy anyway. control your temper.

1) I´m not offensive, I´m just pissed by these hardcores feeling so cool by whining about everything.

2) I haven´t played Baldur´s Gate yet but from what I hear in the interwebs it sucked badly and was easier than DAO, at least for everyone who knows DnD rules.

[soteria]

BG2 is "the most hardcore and challenging CRPG of the past and this decade"? Really? I find that extremely hard to believe.

[Lintanis]

Be a great way to get rid of companions you didnt like lol, Oh Sten and Oghren died......... oh well where to next

[wanderon]

Lintanis wrote...

Be a great way to get rid of companions you didnt like lol, Oh Sten and Oghren died......... oh well where to next

Actually many players used the death mechanic in the BG series as a sweet option to "cull" party members who didn't fit or to break up "couples" where you wanted one but not the other and there were even a couple of situations where party members who were particularly antagonistic to one another would take themselves out of your control for a time and fight to the death among themselves -

As for my own preference for taking the long or more difficult road when something bad or unexpected happens instead of reloading until I get it right it just seems like the right thing to do for my playstyle.

The game after all is a series of challenges to me and a successful run through a game is made by not only by facing each one in turn and suceeding in some fashion but also by facing whatever consequences occur as a result of the manner in which I suceeded.

This is true for me whether that be my choices in conversations, my actions,my prowess or ineptness in battle, my PCs attitude towards a companion or plot NPC (based on the role I have chosen for him/her) or even just karma, fate, or a good or bad roil of the dice. 

If I dismiss those consequences by reloading then the whole idea of roleplaying what happens to my character and the interesting twists it causes gets lost in the shuffle and instead my game focus is shifted to how to make a character follow a mostly predetermined path where he wins every battle soundly and makes every decision properly, gets the girl/guy, saves the world and lives happily ever after.
 
Now sometimes I may consciously try to make the right decsions plot wise and try to end up with that scenario but I don' go back and reload conversations when the choice I made turns out to be less than optimal - I just live with it and try it differently next time.
 
I often just prefer a more gritty formula where it's ok for him to make bad decisions and live with them and that it's even OK if the game beats me and I take what enjoyment I got out of playing that far and go try again with another character.

Sometimes when I am playing a No Reload  game I get attached to a character and change my mind when my character dies and set aside my no reload rule and reload and continue with just a minimal reload mindset instead but not all that often becuase the atmosphere of playing when any battle could mean game over is just more exciting than the atmosphere of oh well I can just reload and do it again.  


I liked the death mechanic in the IE games becuase they gave me choices to make that could have a major (or minor) effect on the not only the games long term outlook but even more so on the short term outlook. This made the game much more interesting to me.
 
When you remove the possibilty of individual party members death as they do in DA or NWN2 you remove the possibilty of facing many of those consequences and while this is seen as a good thing by those who would just reload anyway (and I am not inferring there is anything wrong with playing that way) it was and is definately a dissappointment to me - I am not angry about it and I understand why it was done but that doesn't mean I have to learn prefer it over those other death options they chose not to use.

[aaniadyen]

Tirigon wrote...

BomimoDK wrote...

i see what you're saying, but they DID call this a successor to the most
hardcore and challenging CRPG of the past and this decade. they could
at least make it possible to chose to play with what resembles tha
equation. that includes ressurection or chunkification (real permanent
death). a checkbox and some lore would do the trick and he's right to
come to Bioware for this since this used to be their area. and you need to chill... stop being so offensive just because you're hiding behind the internet.
it would not hurt you in any way if this was either a checkbox or disabled on easy anyway. control your temper.

1) I´m not offensive, I´m just pissed by these hardcores feeling so cool by whining about everything.

2) I haven´t played Baldur´s Gate yet but from what I hear in the interwebs it sucked badly and was easier than DAO, at least for everyone who knows DnD rules.

1. I'm one of those hardcores, and I promise that I'm not saying anything simply for the sake of being whiney, and noone is cool here. It's an RPG forum.
2. You probably shouldn't condemn a game to absolutes until you've at least given it a shot. I think most CRPG fans will at least recognize it as being an incredible game. I have no idea where you've heard otherwise.

[aaniadyen]

Bah! Double post, sorry =/

Modifié par aaniadyen, 31 mai 2010 - 04:24 .

[aaniadyen]

soteria wrote...

BG2 is "the most hardcore and challenging CRPG of the past and this decade"? Really? I find that extremely hard to believe.

It is definately the most hardcore CRPG in the past decade. Here's proof: Skip to 9:10

Modifié par aaniadyen, 31 mai 2010 - 04:28 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Yes you are. Well, almost.

Really stupid idea, IMO. You shouldn't be able resurrect decomposing body which you dragged for a couple of days... Well, unless we're talking about a party of ghouls/zombies here...

[DaneWolf]

Ah yes!!! Baldur's Gate and Planescape tourment!!! Remember those games and still play them!!! NPC's were allso better and had deeper personalities then!!! They are still good games and even surpass many RPG's today!!! No your not alone in missing those games!

[Dreadstruck]

Tirigon wrote...
2) I haven´t played Baldur´s Gate yet but from what I hear in the interwebs it sucked badly

That must have been a really faulty interweb indeed. BG Saga doesn't seem like a failure to me. Opinion and reviews wise.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 31 mai 2010 - 07:44 .

[AlanC9]

Failure? No. But also not difficult. Regular deaths were less of a problem than DA injuries, and most other things could be worked around or avoided. The only really hard thing was the special rule about the PC, which was just dumb.

[HarryDresden]

JBurke wrote...

You're not alone at all. But that era is over and this new age of "player friendly gameplay" is here to stay. It's not about gameplay these days, it's about trophies/achievements on multi-platform games that everybody can play in larger markets without being scared away by the prospect that one might actually have to do some math and strategy.

That's what the difficulty settings is about. If you want to do the math, set it harder.
I like to play on hard and micro-manage everything almost like a chess match.

I do agree the whole "achievements" thing feels like a cheezie WoW rip off. I mean, wtf, its not like we're curing cancer we're playing a game for fun.

Modifié par HarryDresden, 01 juin 2010 - 12:09 .

[FBG_Loke]

Tirigon wrote...

2) I haven´t played Baldur´s Gate yet but from what I hear in the interwebs it sucked badly and was easier than DAO, at least for everyone who knows DnD rules.

If I were you, I would never visit whatever site you read that drivel at. I'm by no means a Bioware or Black Isle fanboy. But it's pretty much universally accepted that the BG series was one of the most innovative and well done RPGs of it's time. I seriously would not trust any site that reviewed BG and said it "sucked badly."

[Tirigon]

FBG_Loke wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

2) I haven´t played Baldur´s Gate yet but from what I hear in the interwebs it sucked badly and was easier than DAO, at least for everyone who knows DnD rules.

If I were you, I would never visit whatever site you read that drivel at.

It was this one. A discussion similar to the one here.

[Tirigon]

aaniadyen wrote...

2. You probably shouldn't condemn a game to absolutes until you've at least given it a shot. I think most CRPG fans will at least recognize it as being an incredible game. I have no idea where you've heard otherwise.

I don´t, and I didn´t mean my post to come across as that. My point was that you shouldn´t say DAO is so much easier than BG when people who played both, too, claim the opposite.

I can´t know which one is right, but I have no reason to believe you anymore than those who say it was easy, so this argument isn´t valid. At least not for me.

[FBG_Loke]

Tirigon wrote...
It was this one. A discussion similar to the one here.

The only people I can imagine saying any such thing would be someone that just recently played it. Yes, by now, it would definitely be dated. But at the time of it's release, ground breaking.

[keesio74]

elearon1 wrote...

You know what I miss from some of the older CRPGs?  NPC death.  I miss having to actually go to a temple carrying your friend's body to get it resurrected if he got killed during an adventure - unless you were fortunate enough to have a rare and expensive magic item with limited charges you could carry along with you.

You know what is funny? I was a hardcore CRPG player back in the 80's and early 90's. Then I stopped playing games for awhile. I slowly got back into it over the last few years and Dragon Age was my first real CRPG in some time (not including Diablo or Warcraft (not WoW)). So when I was playing DA:O, I kept restoring the game if one of my party members fell in combat because I thought they died! I mean you see their portrait turn into a skull for crissake! And that whole time I was also wondering what injury kits were for :-P

In any case, image my surprise when one of my party members fell in a tough fight and I decided to finish the fight too see what happens and then when I win.... I see that member stand back up! At first I was like, OH MAN! Then relief... then I felt that it was cheap and since then I always restore the game if any one of my guys fall.

So yeah... I agree that I kinda liked it when if someone falls in combat... they are DEAD. But I understand why this is not so in modern games. To much dependencies on those characters being alive for plot purposes vs the old games which were much more simple.