104 réponses à ce sujet

[Arttis]

if you fight and get knocked down with too many injuries your body gets a permanent penalty or injury that an injury kit cant fix.Say you have 3 injuries you go down again you now have 4 regular injuries and 1 perm injury.I have a feeling this isnt the best answer.

maybe every injury penalty increases in individual effect for however many other injuries are present.

or how about everytime they fall down they cant get back up for 5 minutes.Your not gonna reload because they fell but its still a punishment.I do not think your really gonna get frustrated but a little annoyed.

[flixerflax]

I'm a fan of dead=dead. You can either continue on without them or reload. IMO that should be a feature of hard/nightmare mode at LEAST.

[Arttis]

well in the game when you kill wynne at the tower dead=dead

[maxernst]

soteria wrote...

BG2 is "the most hardcore and challenging CRPG of the past and this decade"? Really? I find that extremely hard to believe.

Well, it certainly wasn't the most challenging. I honestly don't think it was really any harder than DAO--more difficult at the end, but easier in the middle (at least on first playthrough).  Wizardry 8 was FAR more difficult...harder on the easiest level than BG2 or DA:O on normal, at least for me.  I also thought Arx Fatalis was clearly more difficult...although it's more of an action RPG, so it's a different sort of difficulty.

As far as hardcore, what does that actually mean?  BG2 sold more than 2 million units, so it was hardly a niche product of interest only to hardcore gamers.  If you were looking for games that had characteristics that were offputting to fans of action-RPG's like Diablo, I'd say Planescape: Torment and Arcanum were more hardcore (and sold a heck of a lot less).  They were not more difficult, though.

[maxernst]

[quote]keesio74 wrote...

[quote]elearon1 wrote...

You know what I miss from some of the older CRPGs?  NPC death.  I miss having to actually go to a temple carrying your friend's body to get it resurrected if he got killed during an adventure - unless you were fortunate enough to have a rare and expensive magic item with limited charges you could carry along with you.

[/quote]

You know what is funny? I was a hardcore CRPG player back in the 80's and early 90's. Then I stopped playing games for awhile. I slowly got back into it over the last few years and Dragon Age was my first real CRPG in some time (not including Diablo or Warcraft (not WoW)). So when I was playing DA:O, I kept restoring the game if one of my party members fell in combat because I thought they died! I mean you see their portrait turn into a skull for crissake! And that whole time I was also wondering what injury kits were for :-P


I did exactly the same thing!  It wasn't until I was getting clobbered in the Redcliffe courtyard that I decided to play it out and see what happened and an Alistair at about 10% health was the last one standing...and to my surprise, everybody suddenly woke up!

Modifié par maxernst, 01 juin 2010 - 01:28 .

[soteria]

Actually, even Diablo 2 is more challenging than DA:O on the harder difficulties, and the combat in that consists of clickclickclickclickclickrightlickclick... arguably not a "true" RPG, but like the roguelike dungeon crawlers it was inspired by, it falls under that larger category.  Technically, 28 Days Later isn't a zombie movie, either, but in both cases it's a distinction that only the true purists make.

Modifié par soteria, 01 juin 2010 - 07:54 .

[Catcher]

      Here's a question for those who want a Character death mechanic: Why not enforce one yourself? It's pretty obvious that Bioware's not going to be putting in any switches that fundamentally change both game mechanics and game continuity in a stroke, so why not just do it yourself. If Allistair goes down in battle, after its over, take him back to camp and leave him there. If you prefer a ressurection mechanic, Destroy some vendor trash out of your Inventory or buy and Destroy some from Bodhain. It gives you the ultimate in Player control over how punishing the mechanic is without having the Developer muck things up by littering the game with Rods of Ressurection and special Harper's Only Raise Dead spells so it's too easy. Of course, you can't use this mechanic on your own Character, but you couldn't resurrect the Bhaalspawn in either BG anyway. Any point where a "dead" Character chimes in on a Plot point, ignore him/her. If somehow you get stuck somewhere where you get attacked before you can switch the "dead" Character out, move her/him back away from the action with a Custom "Dead" Tactic Set.  Not very much work for people who are truely attached to this mechanic and far more likely to happen than any major change by Bioware given the realities of the situation.

    For myself, I wouldn't mind more combat impact from Injuries, a greater variety of Injuries, and more impact from Injuries to the Approval System, but that's me and my 'workableness'.

[AlanC9]

[quote]maxernst wrote...

[quote]keesio74 wrote...

[quote]elearon1 wrote...

You know what I miss from some of the older CRPGs?  NPC death.  I miss having to actually go to a temple carrying your friend's body to get it resurrected if he got killed during an adventure - unless you were fortunate enough to have a rare and expensive magic item with limited charges you could carry along with you.

[/quote]

You know what is funny? I was a hardcore CRPG player back in the 80's and early 90's. Then I stopped playing games for awhile. I slowly got back into it over the last few years and Dragon Age was my first real CRPG in some time (not including Diablo or Warcraft (not WoW)). So when I was playing DA:O, I kept restoring the game if one of my party members fell in combat because I thought they died! I mean you see their portrait turn into a skull for crissake! And that whole time I was also wondering what injury kits were for :-P


I did exactly the same thing!  It wasn't until I was getting clobbered in the Redcliffe courtyard that I decided to play it out and see what happened and an Alistair at about 10% health was the last one standing...and to my surprise, everybody suddenly woke up!
[/quote]

No wonder Bio doesn't bother explaining things in the manual -- nobody reads the stuff they put in there anyway.

[AlanC9]

And I had to correct this:

elearon1 wrote...
Statues, disintegrate, imprisonment, illithid brain eating, charm (had a beholder charm a character and he just left the group); there were many ways in BG2 that one could die permanently - and again, I liked this, it captured the feel of the pnp games it was emulating. 

Most of this is simply wrong. Imprisonment and Petrification are reversible, charm doesn't cause a character to be lost permanently, and brain eating simply causes normal death

Why is it that so many BG2 fans don't actually remember the game?

[aaniadyen]

AlanC9 wrote...

And I had to correct this:

elearon1 wrote...
Statues, disintegrate, imprisonment, illithid brain eating, charm (had a beholder charm a character and he just left the group); there were many ways in BG2 that one could die permanently - and again, I liked this, it captured the feel of the pnp games it was emulating. 

Most of this is simply wrong. Imprisonment and Petrification are reversible, charm doesn't cause a character to be lost permanently, and brain eating simply causes normal death

Why is it that so many BG2 fans don't actually remember the game?

Statues were reletively permanant. If you were hit with flesh to stone, only way out was stone to flesh. If you got hit while a statue, you were gone. No possible way of comming back. Disintigrate was completely permanent. Imprisonment ...I cannot remember. I know Maze was temporary (You came back just as you were a number of turns later). Dire charm wore off once the charmer was killed (iirc), and yes, Illithid brain-eating was simply treated as normal instant-death.

[Dreadstruck]

And didn't also Imprisonment and Petrification kill your current romance? You know, they get removed from the party and are treated like you kicked 'em out, until you revive them somehow.

[Rzepik2]

aaniadyen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

And I had to correct this:

elearon1 wrote...
Statues, disintegrate, imprisonment, illithid brain eating, charm (had a beholder charm a character and he just left the group); there were many ways in BG2 that one could die permanently - and again, I liked this, it captured the feel of the pnp games it was emulating. 

Most of this is simply wrong. Imprisonment and Petrification are reversible, charm doesn't cause a character to be lost permanently, and brain eating simply causes normal death

Why is it that so many BG2 fans don't actually remember the game?

Statues were reletively permanant. If you were hit with flesh to stone, only way out was stone to flesh. If you got hit while a statue, you were gone. No possible way of comming back. Disintigrate was completely permanent. Imprisonment ...I cannot remember. I know Maze was temporary (You came back just as you were a number of turns later). Dire charm wore off once the charmer was killed (iirc), and yes, Illithid brain-eating was simply treated as normal instant-death.

There was possibility of undoing EVERY kind of death with the greater wish spell (available laaaate in game of course). For Imprisonment there was a special anti-spell.

[aaniadyen]

Rzepik2 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

And I had to correct this:

elearon1 wrote...
Statues, disintegrate, imprisonment, illithid brain eating, charm (had a beholder charm a character and he just left the group); there were many ways in BG2 that one could die permanently - and again, I liked this, it captured the feel of the pnp games it was emulating. 

Most of this is simply wrong. Imprisonment and Petrification are reversible, charm doesn't cause a character to be lost permanently, and brain eating simply causes normal death

Why is it that so many BG2 fans don't actually remember the game?

Statues were reletively permanant. If you were hit with flesh to stone, only way out was stone to flesh. If you got hit while a statue, you were gone. No possible way of comming back. Disintigrate was completely permanent. Imprisonment ...I cannot remember. I know Maze was temporary (You came back just as you were a number of turns later). Dire charm wore off once the charmer was killed (iirc), and yes, Illithid brain-eating was simply treated as normal instant-death.

There was possibility of undoing EVERY kind of death with the greater wish spell (available laaaate in game of course). For Imprisonment there was a special anti-spell.

Not if you're playing BG 1. lol

[AlanC9]

Let's not confuse the peanut gallery. In BG1 you couldn't be hit with an Imprisonment spell in the first place.

[Slink Saberknocker]

I agree with the OP, but its something that is hard to put a finger on.  Recent RPG's....including very good ones like DA.....have eliminated any real negative impact from a battle that goes wrong and believe me, I was the reload KING while playing BGII.  I'm not a hardcore battle technician or min/max gamer, so some of those fights where absolutely ridiculous.

I challenge the person above who thought BGII was not a hardcore RPG to give Gangaxx a go too early in the game - or that damnable Beholder infested maze - or Firkragg (sp?).   Hell...even one badass wizard would wipe your whole party.  Even knowing you could reload, the mechanic still made you think before hand "do I really want to get into this?  Maybe I should wait."  Of course, there were also some fights in BGII that you could stumble into too early and were damn near unbeatable at an early level (as a casual gamer) so even a reload may not be an option.  It definitely added to the games challenge level.

Obviously, reload negates most bad decisions or lack of attention going into a battle, but at least then you're forced to fight the fight again. The easiest way to address the OP would be to have Injuries cause a substantial impact on stats/performance and require medical attention - or something similar - from somebody in town....or something like that.  Then you'd actually care if a party member went down b/c it would be a pain to negate the effects.

[AlanC9]

That's the problem with these arguments that are "hard to put a finger on." If you don't actually agree with the sentiment, nobody can give a reason why you should.

As for the challenge, I'll take it. Kangaxx needs someone with 6th level mage spells and easily affordable equipment to be completely doomed. That's all. This might make him slightly harder than his DA equivalent, but I'm not certain.

Actually, Minsc might be able to take him at an even lower level.....

Edit: Maybe not. IIRC you need +4 weapons, which aren't too common.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 juin 2010 - 01:30 .

[thepringle]

it would add a hell of alot more emotion to your buddies getting downed and with the modern day graphics seeing your character carrying him/her would be pretty sad and cool

[AlanC9]

Sure, except that once he actually gets raised you realize that death is trivial.

There are two completely different issues here. One is DA injuries or standard BG death. The other is non-plot permadeath.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 juin 2010 - 01:33 .

[yummysoap]

I hate it when people say this, I really do. But I'm going to use the age old "I played Dragon age for the story and lore, which was roxer boxer-elicious, I didn't play it for any other reason."

I certainly didn't play it for the combat, which I originally thought (and still do, to some degree) sucked ass. Burn me at the stake if you must, but I just cannot get into "hardcore" rpg combat. Especially turn-based, I just cannot understand that shiz- the characters look so uninvolved swinging a sword around and magically force-shredding an opponent about twelve feet away. Even when they're up close it still looks like they're just swinging their sword aimlessly, and it's just embarassing when the opponent is on the ground and my Warden is viciously attacking air.

More importantly it just doesn't feel like I'm the one behind it. An attribute dictates my effectiveness, not my skill, and pushing a button and watching the PC do something isn't what I would call engaging. Pausing a game in the middle of a battle just doesn't get my spirits racing.

So there, that's what the RPG non-purist thinks. In b4 "go back to Call of Duty, douche"

Modifié par yummysoap, 02 juin 2010 - 01:42 .

[k9medusa]

True based is more fun in pen and paper with real life dm then in any video game -- in video games it is a cross between Red Alert style of thinking and action based. One can argue it is based on skill, but not reflexes. It is how well one can make a char build and how to understand the AI instead how quick one's fingers are. Over all, I do like turn based better then a action game. IMHO, Diablo (1 or 2 or 3) will be more fun if it is turn based as well.

[aaniadyen]

AlanC9 wrote...

Let's not confuse the peanut gallery. In BG1 you couldn't be hit with an Imprisonment spell in the first place.

-.- I was talking about petrification shattering. Obviously you can't be subject to a level 9 spell when the max spell level in the entire game is 7.

[AlanC9]

aaniadyen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Let's not confuse the peanut gallery. In BG1 you couldn't be hit with an Imprisonment spell in the first place.

-.- I was talking about petrification shattering. Obviously you can't be subject to a level 9 spell when the max spell level in the entire game is 7.

I thought you were joking. Your post is ambiguous.

Can petrification shattering actually happen in BG1? I'm not aware of any enemies that will attack a petrified party member. I suppose a stupid player could blow them up with AOE spells, of course.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I liked how the knockouts cause injuries, but I always think that having to go back and use a temple or something to ressurect someone is just a pain in the ***. I don't think that adds anything to difficulty, but it does add to annoyance.



If they made the game's hp system more like Fallout 1/2, that would've added to the difficulty and realism. HP hardly mattered in Fallout because the enemy always got in lucky criticals which killed you in one hit anyways (which is by far more realistic). In that game, when you see a huge group of enemies that really causes you to freak out (some of those caravan runs were unrealistically difficult with the amount of freaking Super Mutants/Aliens).

[Emerald Melios]

elearon1 wrote...

You know what I miss from some of the older CRPGs?  NPC death.  I miss having to actually go to a temple carrying your friend's body to get it resurrected if he got killed during an adventure - unless you were fortunate enough to have a rare and expensive magic item with limited charges you could carry along with you.

I miss running through half the underdark in BG2 with only 2 surviving party members, looking for some way to get them on their feet again - having to leave their equipment behind so I could carry their bodies without becoming cripplingly encumbered.  

The potential for NPC death made battles more suspenseful, because you knew if you messed up, didn't use your resources well, or just had some very bad luck you'd have to carry a dead body back to town and future battles would be that much more dangerous.  

I played once through BG2 never reloading for anything shy of the main character's death (and then because you had to reload in that event) and ended up having to leave one of my party members behind because we couldn't carry her and had no way of raising her - so she was lost to the party forever.  Roleplaying wise that carried some serious weight with it ... having to make a choice to leave one of your companions, knowing if you could just get her back to town in time you'd be able to save her ... 

With party members merely being knocked out now, and getting up again at the end of the battle, the combats seem less meaningful, as if there is less at stake.  

I realize, however, that having to constantly spend your coin to raise npcs can become a tedious and aggravating way to spend your time and money - especially since playing a game is meant to be fun.  But it would be nice to have that as an option - much the same way you can turn off friendly fire damage in the game, just click a box which either autowakes your party at the end of a fight or requires you resurrect them.  

Am I the only one who misses this?

I can safely say I don't miss it.

[aaniadyen]

AlanC9 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Let's not confuse the peanut gallery. In BG1 you couldn't be hit with an Imprisonment spell in the first place.

-.- I was talking about petrification shattering. Obviously you can't be subject to a level 9 spell when the max spell level in the entire game is 7.

I thought you were joking. Your post is ambiguous.

Can petrification shattering actually happen in BG1? I'm not aware of any enemies that will attack a petrified party member. I suppose a stupid player could blow them up with AOE spells, of course.

lol, I don't take much, if anything on these boards seriously anymore, so most of my posts are at least half joking. To answer your question, though, yeah. Monsters will attack your petrified character in BG 1. It's kind of a moot point though because the only places you encounter it are really bassilisks (an entire three areas in the game). All you need is to have protection from petrification ready when you know you're about to fight some and it's not even a problem any longer.