86 réponses à ce sujet

[soteria]

@ Soteria

Sorry, I missed your PM until after the fact. As to the Animation timing, how are you tracking it? Stopwatch? Video frames?

First, I tried a stopwatch, but that was too erratic. I timed it with video frames from the moment I hit the button to activate the talent. 2h animation times:



Both Sunders appear to have the same animation time: 2.5s. Mighty Blow, Critical Strike, Two-hand sweep, and Pommel Strike all appear to have a 2s animation time. It was a lot harder to sort out the animation times for the 2h, because they blend into the next swing whereas the shield animations use a shield.

[TBastian]

Monster HP basically works as a type of diminishing returns factor when calculating damage, which is why at some point even a DPSer build can start investing in his/her other attributes without too much ill effect. Besides, the most difficult battles are usually the ones where auto-attacking is discouraged. There are either mages/traps/archers with Scattershot about, there's something that's spamming knockdowns/knockbacks (which is why everybody loves Indomitable), or your target is simply fighting back... hard. Most times I see the two-hander shine in the DPS department it's usually because everyone else is flying in the air/lying flat on their backs. Then again where a DPS rogue is concerned, nothing short of death should prevent that from shredding its target to pieces. I recently had a rather rude awakening regarding backstab and the Assassin spec.

Solos are another matter since with careful planning reaching the point where you can have "too much" DPS is (obviously) easier for a party. I understand where you're coming from. Despite your "soloist disclaimer" IMO enough of the calculations in the post makes sense that anyone trying to make a DPS character (for solo or otherwise) should find this information invaluable, as long they understand that enemies in the game don't exactly just offer themselves for your characters to kill. This is random babble, btw. Ignore this part.

Anyway I am surprised Dual-striking doesn't affect damage much. I guess it's only redeeming quality is that it doubles bonus damage. Bioware must have taken pains to make sure it performed as a tier 1 skill.

Modifié par TBastian, 12 juillet 2010 - 09:13 .

[soteria]

I wonder how many auto attacks you can get with a dagger in the time it takes you to chain Shield Pummel/Overpower/Assault? Something tells me it will not add up to 700 points of dmg.

Oh, now that I have the numbers, about 9 seconds. You're best off doing Overpower last because the knockdown adds time walking forward to re-engage. In my tests, chaining them together gave results from 8-10 seconds, depending on how much my toon had to move around to use all three abilities (for some reason it seems like you have to be slightly closer than auto-attack range to use a special).

If we take Random70's auto-attack numbers for dex dagger/shield with flaming weapons and adjust them for a 9 second interval, it comes up to 550 some damage, or a little under 700 damage with haste. Based on that, a hasted dex dagger/shield build can keep up with the strength talent-spam build. Right? Or am I missing something?

[Random70]

^ My auto-attack results are for normal damage only - no crits. I neglected to notate crit% for the S/S test, but IIRC it's ~12.5% or roughly 1 in 8, so add ~30 damage to the hasted version.

And, generally speaking, if you're talking about a 'Burst' situation it's going to be against a tough enemy who can survive being 'Bursted'. Tougher enemies are likely to have at least decent AC, in which case you can add another ~25 to the dagger to account for armor pen.

Modifié par Random70, 16 juillet 2010 - 11:33 .

[Random70]

Fixed an error with S/S swing time...from 2.0 sec to 1.9. Updated auto attack info to reflect

[soteria]

Well, that 5% difference certainly boosted the autoattack damage over time.
The real reason I timed the duration of the S/S specials is to find out if they're even worth using over autoattack in terms of damage per second. I went with 3s each for overpower and assault, and 2.75 for pummel since I never satisfied myself whether it was 2.5 or 3. What I found was that the pure strength build should always use specials, when available. The pure dex build should only use them if he's unbuffed, and for the 50/50 build they're more or less a wash. DPS Numbers:

STR
Pummel: 88, Overpower: 62, Assault: 87, Autoattack: 45, or 64 with runes and flaming weapons.

50/50
Pummel: 64, Overpower: 46, Assault: 56, Autoattack: 38, or 61 with runes and flaming weapons.

DEX
Pummel: 53, Overpower: 33, Assault: 54, Autoattack: 38, or 61 with runes and flaming weapons.

Auto-attack dps was derived by taking the auto-attack numbers and dividing by 11. I guess that's not really ground-breaking news, but I still wanted to confirm it with hard data. Note that even if you add haste, the pure strength build still wants to use specials (for their effects, at least).

Modifié par soteria, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:21 .

[Random70]

soteria wrote...
Well, that 5% difference certainly boosted the autoattack damage over time.

No big shock that a given build will be more effective with more attack speed, but it is quite eye-opening how much of a difference even a .1 increase makes.

soteria wrote...
The real reason I timed the duration of the S/S specials is to find out if they're even worth using over autoattack in terms of damage per second. I went with 3s each for overpower and assault, and 2.75 for pummel since I never satisfied myself whether it was 2.5 or 3. What I found was that the pure strength build should always use specials, when available. The pure dex build should only use them if he's unbuffed, and for the 50/50 build they're more or less a wash. DPS Numbers:
STR
Pummel: 91, Overpower: 63, Assault: 80, Autoattack: 45, or 64 with runes and flaming weapons.

50/50
Pummel: 66, Overpower: 47, Assault: 52, Autoattack: 38, or 61 with runes and flaming weapons.

DEX
Pummel: 54, Overpower: 34, Assault: 49, Autoattack: 38, or 61 with runes and flaming weapons.

Auto-attack dps was derived by taking the auto-attack numbers and dividing by 11. I guess that's not really ground-breaking news, but I still wanted to confirm it with hard data. Note that even if you add haste, the pure strength build still wants to use specials (for their effects, at least).

Nice job on the data.

Yeah, I'd concur that the S/S Dex is firmly in the 'Auto-attack and CC as needed' category, but the STR version is not so clear cut as it's tough to qualify CC effects. Bear in mind too, that the auto numbers listed do not include crits as I was attempting to show a comparison among all Warrior types and citicals would have skewed the results due to differing gear and / or Precise Striking.

Speaking of Precise Strinking, I may have to run another test this weekend to observe how the various builds benefit from an attack speed vs. crit standpoint. I could probably just math it out, but by running a test I get to decapitate darkspawn.

[beancounter501]

Bah, too much theory crafting here! Stunned monsters don't hit back. Knocked down monsters don't hit back. I will happily trade 10 to 20 points of dmg to knock a mob out of the fight for 3 or 4 seconds. Even a dex build since a lot of the time the monster I am stunning has some special attack - like a spell! I don't want to auto attack them and let the genlock emisary cast Crushing Prison. I want to knock them out of the fight. Any special > auto attack for a S&S. Unless you are fighting some trash mob that it does not matter.



As for crit vs attack speed - in the lower levels maybe go attack speed. Post deathblow go for crit boosting since that is the only way you are going to increase the damage for talent attacks. On a console. But in the higher levels Precise Striking stars to have a serious impact. Especially if you through in some Intensity Runes. Yummy 400 to 600 point sunder arms.

[beancounter501]

Here are some results of time trials for special attacks. All of them were calculated using a modified script that posted times to the log file. The internal was calculated between when the game registered the special attacks until it registered the next auto attack starting. I rounded the times down to the nearest 500th of a second, since the game does lag anywhere from .05 to .02 seconds.

Dual Weld
Flurry: 1.8 seconds
Dual Sweep: 1.45 seconds
Cripple: 1.45 seconds
Riptose: 1.2 seconds
Whirlwind: 1.95 seconds
Punisher: 2.85 seconds

The delay on punisher is occuring because you have to move to the target to initate the next attack.

S&S
Shield Bash: 1.5 seconds
Shield Pummel: 2.85 seconds
Overpower: 3.1 seconds
Assault: 2.75 seconds

Again, the knock down attacks take longer because of the time to close back to the target.

2 Hand
Pommel Strike: 2.15 seconds
Mighty Blow: 2.1 seconds
Sunder Arms: 2.65 seconds
Sunder Armor: 2.65 seconds
Critical Strike: 2.15 seconds
2 Hand Sweep: 2.7 seconds

Sweep seems to hit a whole lot faster then I would have thought.  The sunder attacks are basically attacking as fast as a double haste.  Mighty Blow and Critical Strike attack fast then the regular auto attack.


Edit: Just for fun a Warrior Archer attacks every 1.6 seconds when using the Repeater Gloves.

Modifié par beancounter501, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:31 .

[soteria]

Nice. When I saw you use that script for timing attacks in the other thread, I wondered if you'd apply it to this. Looks like my numbers were accurate enough for rounding to the nearest half second, except for 2h sweep, where I imagine the difference is caused by having to move into melee range again. I'm glad to see these numbers verified using a more precise method.

I edited my calculations to reflect the more accurate numbers.  It really didn't make a heck of a lot of difference, except that Assault is a little higher and Pummel/Overpower are very slighly lower.  Overall, the conclusions are the same.

Modifié par soteria, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:29 .

[beancounter501]

Yes, I am a little disappointed in the S&S talents. I think Bioware kindof dropped the ball on the S&S. They should have gotten 6 attack talents instead of 4. Like the other classes.

If anything I think it is an indicator that Bioware also dropped the ball on Runes/Weapon enchantments not firing on specials and how overpowered Flaming Weapons is. Especially when being used by a dagger character.

One thing the numbers don't cover is how to account for the Knockdown time. It is always better to use the knockdown attacks against certain monster types - like a spellcaster. Plus a S&S and 2 Hand working together can completely shutdown a Yellow mob with ease by alternating Pommel Strike/Bash/Overpower. Plus your Rogue will love the knockdowns. Like Random70 said earlier, DPS does not tell the whole story.

Edit: Now I would love to see the same kind of tests run for the various Rogue builds.  Comparing a Dex, Cun, str and Dex/Cun mix.  Comparing backstab damage, autoattack, and talent usage as well.  Realworld numbers, not theorycraft.

Edit2:  Also, the other thing missing is the impact of running Precise Striking on the talent spam.  There is very little drawback to running that.  However, I suspect that it will not help the S&S that much.

Modifié par beancounter501, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:47 .

[beancounter501]

One last update - Dual Striking. The engine is defenitely dropping applying damage for this mode every couple of attacks. I took my character, used Perfect Striking to boost his attack rating to around 240 and he still missed. This was against targets that had a defense of 83 - so should have been in auto hit.



In the log file I can see the attacks being initated - but it never applied the damage. Some sort of change was being done on the engine level. I did see the bleeding dmg from Dual Weapon Expert being applied from the attack - but that was it.

[Last Darkness]

beancounter501 wrote...

One last update - Dual Striking. The engine is defenitely dropping applying damage for this mode every couple of attacks. I took my character, used Perfect Striking to boost his attack rating to around 240 and he still missed. This was against targets that had a defense of 83 - so should have been in auto hit.

In the log file I can see the attacks being initated - but it never applied the damage. Some sort of change was being done on the engine level. I did see the bleeding dmg from Dual Weapon Expert being applied from the attack - but that was it.

Good to see more confirmation. Id do the Rogue numbers if I could, damn you PC users.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...

Here are some results of time trials for special attacks. All of them were calculated using a modified script that posted times to the log file. The internal was calculated between when the game registered the special attacks until it registered the next auto attack starting. I rounded the times down to the nearest 500th of a second, since the game does lag anywhere from .05 to .02 seconds.

Dual Weld
Flurry: 1.8 seconds
Dual Sweep: 1.45 seconds
Cripple: 1.45 seconds
Riptose: 1.2 seconds
Whirlwind: 1.95 seconds
Punisher: 2.85 seconds

The delay on punisher is occuring because you have to move to the target to initate the next attack.

S&S
Shield Bash: 1.5 seconds
Shield Pummel: 2.85 seconds
Overpower: 3.1 seconds
Assault: 2.75 seconds

Again, the knock down attacks take longer because of the time to close back to the target.

2 Hand
Pommel Strike: 2.15 seconds
Mighty Blow: 2.1 seconds
Sunder Arms: 2.65 seconds
Sunder Armor: 2.65 seconds
Critical Strike: 2.15 seconds
2 Hand Sweep: 2.7 seconds

Sweep seems to hit a whole lot faster then I would have thought.  The sunder attacks are basically attacking as fast as a double haste.  Mighty Blow and Critical Strike attack fast then the regular auto attack.


Edit: Just for fun a Warrior Archer attacks every 1.6 seconds when using the Repeater Gloves.

Nice job on the numbers, BC. You can draw a few interesting conclusions...

* For a S/S Str (with runes), auto + Bash is about the same as an Overpower
* DW Sweep does more damage in nearly half the time ( and less than half stamina) as 2H Sweep
* As compared to Mighty Blow, CS has half the ATT bonus, 3x the cooldown, and a slower anim? Sweet
* Pommel Strike compares very unfavorably to Bash. PS should probably be a normal, crit-capable attack.
* Pummel vs Punisher: same anim, slightly less damage (DW #'s reflect WC +15% crit damage), longer debuff, debuffs targets defense, 40% less stamina, half cooldown. Hmm.

[soteria]

If anything I think it is an indicator that Bioware also dropped the ball on Runes/Weapon enchantments not firing on specials and how overpowered Flaming Weapons is. Especially when being used by a dagger character.

I'm mostly positive that flaming weapons is bugged and is supposed to deal the same damage that frost weapons deals. I'm not sure if that makes Bioware look better or worse... and yeah, it's a real shame all those effects don't work with talents. Auto-attack is so boring.

Pommel Strike compares very unfavorably to Bash. PS should probably be a normal, crit-capable attack.

Well, it should certainly do *something*. In its favor, I think the knockdown happens faster with pommel strike than with shield bash. With shield bash, most of the animation time is taken up before the knockdown takes effect. I believe pommel strike is the opposite. Assuming I'm right, that makes pommel strike better as a go-to interrupt.

For the 2h talents, at least MB and CS are 20% faster than unhasted auto-attack. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Sunder is a 2.65s anim and the normal swing time is 2.5s, doesn't that make sunders worth using even while hasted?

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
Yes, I am a little disappointed in the S&S talents. I think Bioware kindof dropped the ball on the S&S. They should have gotten 6 attack talents instead of 4. Like the other classes.

OTOH, S/S (Str) is unique in that it's not a clear cut spammer or auto attacker. You need to actively use both styles to get the most out of it.

beancounter501 wrote...
If anything I think it is an indicator that Bioware also dropped the ball on Runes/Weapon enchantments not firing on specials and how overpowered Flaming Weapons is. Especially when being used by a dagger character.

Like above, 'no runes / talents' makes things a bit more interesting. Different scenarios require different tactics and all that. Agree on Flame Blade, however, especially in light of the fact that the stupid AI refuses to use it against you.

beancounter501 wrote...
Edit: Now I would love to see the same kind of tests run for the various Rogue builds.  Comparing a Dex, Cun, str and Dex/Cun mix.  Comparing backstab damage, autoattack, and talent usage as well.  Realworld numbers, not theorycraft.

Thought about it, though it would be a big pain to setup...

* Do you make everybody Assassin / Duelist for a level playing field or do you let the CUN build go Assassin / Bard?
* By mid-game my DEX builds are using Wicked Oath 95% of the time, whereas a CUN build would need Harvest or Lifegiver for ATT / survivability respectively. Apples vs. Apples or Max each build? The STR setup would probably like Lifegiver as well.
* Unlike DEX / CUN, the STR build would want to wear WC + Cailan's as opposed to Felon / Cadash / Jenny. Apples or Max? Would also make the talent test a pain as fatigue is a *major* factor (~50% with Mom / Duel) with this setup.
* CUN gets more than half of its damage bonus over DEX/STR from Tainted Suicide. As I do my tests Solo, you can most likely see where the problem lies here.
* For DEX / CUN mix, are you talking 50/50 split? That's giving up alot of ATT / DEF for only a modest increase in (theoretical) damage. Kind of a 'worst of both worlds' setup. My personal 'mix' build is Max DEX, 22 STR, 40-42 CUN.

beancounter501 wrote...
Edit2:  Also, the other thing missing is the impact of running Precise Striking on the talent spam.  There is very little drawback to running that.  However, I suspect that it will not help the S&S that much.

For a 2H or DW Large spammer, PS is a no-brainer. Toss up for DW Axe / Dag. DW Dag would most likely avoid due to the speed nerf. The S/S, which by necessity must use auto and talents regularly, would appear to make a more interesting test. I'd probably go BDA + Cailan's if I decide to test, possibly w & w/o Bloodthirst

[Random70]

soteria wrote...
Well, it should certainly do *something*. In its favor, I think the knockdown happens faster with pommel strike than with shield bash. With shield bash, most of the animation time is taken up before the knockdown takes effect. I believe pommel strike is the opposite. Assuming I'm right, that makes pommel strike better as a go-to interrupt.

Hmm, I'd have to check. I haven't run a 2H for a while now, but I don't recall PS being especially quick on the knockdown.

soteria wrote...
For the 2h talents, at least MB and CS are 20% faster than unhasted auto-attack. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Sunder is a 2.65s anim and the normal swing time is 2.5s, doesn't that make sunders worth using even while hasted?

Yep. Even 2x Haste is only slightly faster than Sunders.

[chefbobby203]

If you are running a dual wielder, can't you run momentum, precise striking, and haste to get in just under the cap? You also get the added bonus of more criticals as well

[Last Darkness]

I always thought Flamming Weapons did more damage because more enemies were resistant to fire damage?



Id love to see these numbers with more varibles, stamina consumption comes to mind as well since your not gonna be able to run momentum and like Rally and spam skills forever.



And yes chefbobby Momentum is 30, Haste 25 so you end up siting at 55% so % over cap but precise striking drops you down 10% so your now at 45% just under the cap.

[beancounter501]

On the whole Pommel Strike vs Shield Bash. The animation for Pommel Strike seems to hit really fast, maybe slightly faster then Shield Bash. But both fire really quick so it is hard to tell. Before I picked up Holy Smite I usually sent the Two Hand and S&S after a mage. The 2 Hand with Indomitable was good to charge straight through the lines and his Pommel Strike would always interrupt the Mage. Pommel Strike is also a auto hit, where Shield Bash can miss. You don't want to miss when a mage is starting up a crushing prison or CoM or Misdirection Hex in the low levels!



On Critical Strike vs Mighty Blow - you forget that Critical Strike will kill any White Mob that is under 20% health. Too bad the critical will kill any White Mob that is under 20% anyways. Since most Criticals hit for around 150 mid-late game you would need to find a White Mob with around 1,000 health for that to kick in. So, umm yeah it sucks. To be honest, that is the one talent I don't use that often, rather save the stamina.



On 2 Hand Sweep vs Dual Sweep - You are forgetting that the damage numbers you are reporting are single target. The center target of Dual Sweep gets hit with both weapons, everyone else just gets hit with one weapon, so you would need to cut the damage in half for everyone else. Plus it is only a 180 degree attack vs a 360 plus no knockdown. But it is a really powerful tier 1 talent and should be one of your go to talents as a Dual Weld. I will always prefer 2 Hand Sweep for the knockdown. 2 Hand Sweep + War Cry can lock down all Melee monster for 5 to 8 seconds. Not to mention it works really well on a group of Archers winding up Scattershot.



On the Rogue tests - I don't think you can do an Apples to Apples comparison. I think you have to customize each build individually with different gear, specializations and stat points. A pain, but that is really the best way to get a comparison. Plus it will highlight how painful it is too run Momentum & SoC & Dueling. Or how running Tainted Blade is almost certain death for certain builds. For the Dex/cun build - I would agree on a 40ish cunning. Actually, I would defer to your opinion since you have much more experience playing different Rogue builds then I do.



What would be interesting to see also is how durable the different builds are. Maybe do a kill me test. Send the Rogue alone into a tough melee battle and go toe to toe until he drops. Time how long each build lasts. Just never turn on Stealth to drop out of combat or drink a potion. A lot of people on the forums complain about how squishy Rogues are and I think that test will really highlight the differences between the builds. Do I go cunning for extra damage or dex for super defense or str for armor?



I would be willing to help test out the builds, perhaps we can come up with what are the four top end Rogue builds and Gear? It is always fun to chop off some Darkspawn heads!

[beancounter501]

@LastDarkness - Flaming Weapons damage will always double frost. So Flaming Weapons can scale up to +20 and Frost Weapons only to +10. I just don't think one tier three spell should give 4 Grandmaster runes to each party members weapon!

[kongenial]

@Random70: Thank you for your detailed and thorough analysis.



A general question: I got used to buff my party with telekinetic weapons as I had the impression the overall damage were higher. Is this true, especially when I stat dex for my rouge instead of cun?

[soteria]

A brief non-scientific test indicated that if pommel strike has a speed advantage, it's not by much. It's certainly not behind shield bash for speed, so that's something.

@kongenial  Telekenetic weapons isn't bad.  The problem is, most enemies don't have enough armor to warrant using it.  It's best against revenants and dragons.  Otherwise, it's probably better than frost weapons, at least.  It's pretty much always worse than flaming weapons.

Modifié par soteria, 30 juillet 2010 - 02:26 .

[DWSmiley]

beancounter501 wrote...

What would be interesting to see also is how durable the different builds are. Maybe do a kill me test. Send the Rogue alone into a tough melee battle and go toe to toe until he drops. Time how long each build lasts. Just never turn on Stealth to drop out of combat or drink a potion. A lot of people on the forums complain about how squishy Rogues are and I think that test will really highlight the differences between the builds. Do I go cunning for extra damage or dex for super defense or str for armor?

I would be willing to help test out the builds, perhaps we can come up with what are the four top end Rogue builds and Gear? It is always fun to chop off some Darkspawn heads!

I'm not sure what that would reveal other than the best build for solo play.  A cunning rogue would certainly pale in comparison to the alternatives but that wouldn't mean a group with a cunning rogue is worse off.  And even with dex vs. str, I think you'd have to run a lot of tests to minimize the random fluctuation of, for example, a stunned dex rogue losing defense or a sundered str rogue losing armor.

[soteria]

You are forgetting that the damage numbers you are reporting are single target. The center target of Dual Sweep gets hit with both weapons, everyone else just gets hit with one weapon, so you would need to cut the damage in half for everyone else.

Not quite accurate. If all the enemies are directly in front of you (something like a 90 degree cone) they'll all get hit with both weapons. It's only the enemies on the periphery that don't get hit twice. Random70, didn't you do tests on DW sweep or was it someone else? Glancing at your OP, my observations are the same. Sometimes it will completely miss, sometimes hit twice, sometimes once. In general, though, you can expect 2 hits on the enemies directly in front and 1 on the enemies to the side.