86 réponses à ce sujet

[beancounter501]

@Soteria - I usually have a hard time hitting more then 1 guy twice with Dual Sweep. I know it is possible, but the reality is I would rather not waste a lot of time trying to get everyone in the right angle.



@Smiley - While I can see your point, I think it would really highlight the durability of the different builds. Otherwise the defense gets regulated to a footnote to the damage comparison. There is more to a good build then damage. That and I like to sneak in behind enemy lines and open with a backstab on a mage. Usually have to survive several rounds taking all the enemy hate before I can stealth out or the party comes save me. LOL, probably why my poor rogues get butchered so much in the low levels! But good damage and good defense is how I measure a build. I do not like Glass Cannons at all.



Plus, it my current playthrough I am using some self imposed rules like not using the same party members. I am continuously switching out characters and the main has to be able to carry his weight, since I will not always have a healer or a buffer or even a warrior. A fun challenge I might add.

[Yrkoon]

beancounter501 wrote...

On Critical Strike vs Mighty Blow - you forget that Critical Strike will kill any White Mob that is under 20% health. Too bad the critical will kill any White Mob that is under 20% anyways. Since most Criticals hit for around 150 mid-late game you would need to find a White Mob with around 1,000 health for that to kick in.

True.

Of course, you'll actually find a few white mobs  with about  1000 health in Awakening, but by then you'll be using Peon's Plight...which insta-kills them  when they're at 100% health.

Still,   I don't see Critical Strike as a waste of Stamina.   It's essentially another Mighty Blow -A guaranteed Critical hit, and another chance to stun your target.    And there's something to be said about  following one up with the other.... 2 criticals in a row, 2 chances to stun

Modifié par Yrkoon, 30 juillet 2010 - 06:39 .

[Last Darkness]

beancounter501 wrote...


What would be interesting to see also is how durable the different builds are. Maybe do a kill me test. Send the Rogue alone into a tough melee battle and go toe to toe until he drops. Time how long each build lasts. Just never turn on Stealth to drop out of combat or drink a potion. A lot of people on the forums complain about how squishy Rogues are and I think that test will really highlight the differences between the builds. Do I go cunning for extra damage or dex for super defense or str for armor?

I would be willing to help test out the builds, perhaps we can come up with what are the four top end Rogue builds and Gear? It is always fun to chop off some Darkspawn heads!

That sounds like a excellent idea, after all you can always do more damage if you can keep yourself alive longer lol
Gonna be a pain though testing the differant rogue builds since theres basicaly about 3 mains ones Str/Dex/Cun each with two or so stat variations for melee and two ranged paths Dex/Cun with some variations, in general that is.

beancounter501 wrote...

@LastDarkness - Flaming Weapons
damage will always double frost. So Flaming Weapons can scale up to +20
and Frost Weapons only to +10. I just don't think one tier three spell
should give 4 Grandmaster runes to each party members weapon!

Thanks for clearing that up, I was under the impression Frost did about 7-10 and Flaming did 10-15. I have never actualy tried it but are they stackable between differant mages? Can you get say +20 Fire from say Wynne and +10 Frost from Morrigan? In addition to Runes on weapons and poison? Also does Vulnerability Hex and Affliction Hex augment these damage numbers much?  In a perfect scenario I belive you can get Vulnerability Hex and Affliction Hex to stack and if cast on two diff targets you can get Affliction Hex to stack twice on itself. If this is true I will have to reconsider my Suicide Warrior Build.

[Yrkoon]

 Frost weapons and Flaming weapons stack when cast from different mages.    But   the amount of damage they do is dependent on spell power and I've not been able to get Morrigan's spell power high enough to see much more than about 5-6 damage from Frost weapons,  or more than about  10-12 damage from Wynne's flaming weapons.

Vunerability hex on a target will  increase those numbers, but not by much, After all,   +20%  cold vunerability   will make  5 points of cold damage only do 6 points.  (ie. one extra point of damage.  Stop the presses!)

Still,   they all stack with the runes you got on your weapon.  And that says alot.   So you've got a sword with  3  elemental runes... say, +5 electrical, +5  frost, +5 flame.  And you're also under the effects of frost weapons and flaming weapons and your target is under the effects of a Vunerability hex....   So one hit does:  +5  electrical (+1 hex), +5 frost  (+1 hex), +6 frost (+1 Hex), +5 flame (+1 Hex), 12 flame (+2 hex)  = 40 points...   And that's before the actual weapon damage and your strength modifier...

Modifié par Yrkoon, 30 juillet 2010 - 07:55 .

[kongenial]

IIRC then you should be able to get both damage buffs with 2 mages. Runes are handled seperate as far as I know.
As the effect of the Hexes are depend on the magic power I assume it they augment them much only in the late game (if the values at Wikia are correct) but I would say it is a viable tactic.

Edit: Damn, too late. Nevermind

Modifié par kongenial, 30 juillet 2010 - 07:47 .

[Random70]

Yrkoon wrote...
 Frost weapons and Flaming weapons stack when cast from different mages.    But   the amount of damage they do is dependent on spell power and I've not been able to get Morrigan's spell power high enough to see much more than about 5-6 damage from Frost weapons,  or more than about  10-12 damage from Wynne's flaming weapons.

Vunerability hex on a target will  increase those numbers, but not by much, After all,   +20%  cold vunerability   will make  5 points of cold damage only do 6 points.  (ie. one extra point of damage.  Stop the presses!)

Still,   they all stack with the runes you got on your weapon.  And that says alot.   So you've got a sword with  3  elemental runes... say, +5 electrical, +5  frost, +5 flame.  And you're also under the effects of frost weapons and flaming weapons and your target is under the effects of a Vunerability hex....   So one hit does:  +5  electrical (+1 hex), +5 frost  (+1 hex), +6 frost (+1 Hex), +5 flame (+1 Hex), 12 flame (+2 hex)  = 40 points...   And that's before the actual weapon damage and your strength modifier...

SP 75 should get you to max values for Flame / Frost Weapons, so:
3x GM runes + Flame Weps + Frost Weps = 45 damage per hit
Max elemental debuff from Hexes is -100% so you're looking at 90 damage per hit. To get really excessive, you can add another ~ +50 - 60 elemental damage from a bunch of poisons and then double that during max Hex. And if you're going to that extreme, you might as well have your warrior use Amulet of Warmage for another +5% elem. damage.

Add all of that together and you could wield a letter opener for 200 damage per hit...

Modifié par Random70, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:11 .

[Last Darkness]

Random70 wrote...

SP 75 should get you to max values for Flame / Frost Weapons, so:
3x GM runes + Flame Weps + Frost Weps = 45 damage per hit
Max elemental debuff from Hexes is -100% so you're looking at 90 damage per hit. To get really excessive, you can add another ~ +50 - 60 elemental damage from a bunch of poisons and then double that during max Hex. And if you're going to that extreme, you might as well have your warrior use Amulet of Warmage for another +5% elem. damage.

Add all of that together and you could wield a letter opener for 200 damage per hit...

Or make a duel dagger autoattack spammer a murder machine.  I like

[beancounter501]

Random70 wrote...
SP 75 should get you to max values for Flame / Frost Weapons, so:
3x GM runes + Flame Weps + Frost Weps = 45 damage per hit
Max elemental debuff from Hexes is -100% so you're looking at 90 damage per hit. To get really excessive, you can add another ~ +50 - 60 elemental damage from a bunch of poisons and then double that during max Hex. And if you're going to that extreme, you might as well have your warrior use Amulet of Warmage for another +5% elem. damage.

Add all of that together and you could wield a letter opener for 200 damage per hit...

Ahh, the enchanted +10 Butter Knife of Doom.  Behold as one swing from this fierce weapon slays knights and dragons! 

I try to stay away from that sort of stuff.  The bulk of the game is fairly balanced but the whole Rune Stacking/Weapon Buffs/Poison stacking on a dagger is a little too overpowered.  A hole in the game - and I hope Bioware fixes it in DA2.  Besides if you are going to have 2 mages and stack Hexes you might as well go for a Blood Wound + Storm of the Century - Blood Wound - Mass Paralyse.  Rather then buff some pitifull Dagger Warrior.  On a side note the Hexes can only take you down to -75%, not -100%. 

[soteria]

Since it is sometimes asserted that DW warriors shouldn't be using talents at all, I decided to give DW the same treatment as I gave S&S.  I'm copy/pasting the relevant data, from the OP and from beancounter's numbers.

**Starfang / Veshaille** (str)
DW Sweep - High: 206, Low: 152, Avg: 180.75, Hi / Lo Avg: 179.00 = 125 dps
Whirlwind -   High: 154, Low: 127, Avg: 135.67, Hi / Lo Avg: 140.50 =  70
Riposte -       High: 189, Low: 150, Avg: 165.56, Hi / Lo Avg: 169.50 = 138
Flurry -           High: 287, Low: 212, Avg: 248.38, Hi / Lo Avg: 249.50 = 138
Punisher -    High: 348, Low: 278, Avg: 317.71, Hi / Lo Avg: 313.00 = 111
Cripple -        High: 110, Low: 74,  Avg: 94.50,    Hi / Lo Avg: 92.00   =  65

Auto-attack damage (over 11 seconds)
DW Ax / Sw:        666.00  = 60.5  unbuffed
DW Sw / Ax:        823.20  = 74.8  GM runes
DW Sw / Ax:        1032.8  = 93.9  runes + flaming weapons

**Veshaille / Rose**  (str)
DW Sweep - High: 187, Low: 133, Avg: 166.70, Hi / Lo Avg: 160.00 = 115 dps
Whirlwind -   High: 177, Low: 98,   Avg: 128.60, Hi / Lo Avg: 137.50  = 66
Riposte -       High: 191, Low: 125, Avg: 161.78, Hi / Lo Avg: 158.00 = 135
Flurry -           High: 323, Low: 210, Avg: 244.71, Hi / Lo Avg: 266.50 = 136
Punisher -    High: 375, Low: 247, Avg: 318.38, Hi / Lo Avg: 311.00  = 112
Cripple -        High: 131, Low: 77,  Avg: 110.11, Hi / Lo Avg: 104.00  =  76

Auto-attack damage (over 11 seconds)
DW Ax / Dag:       722.20  =  65.7  unbuffed
DW Ax / Dag:       918.70  =  83.5  GM runes
DW Ax / Dag:       1180.7  =  107.3 runes + flaming weapons

**Rose / Edge** (dex)
DW Sweep - High: 158, Low: 143, Avg: 149.30, Hi / Lo Avg: 150.50 = 103 dps
Whirlwind -   High: 117, Low: 93,    Avg: 102.25, Hi / Lo Avg: 105.00 = 52
Riposte -       High: 144, Low: 110, Avg: 131.30, Hi / Lo Avg: 122.00 = 109
Flurry -           High: 276, Low: 194, Avg: 230.00, Hi / Lo Avg: 235.00 = 128
Punisher -    High: 272, Low: 209, Avg: 254.00, Hi / Lo Avg: 240.50  = 89
Cripple -       High: 87,    Low: 66,   Avg: 75.44,   Hi / Lo Avg: 76.50    = 52

Auto-attack damage (with runes and momentum, over 11 seconds)
DW Dag / Dag:    800.43   = 72.8 unbuffed
DW Dag / Dag     996.81   = 90.6 GM runes
DW Dag / Dag:    1311.0   = 119.2 runes + flaming weapons

**Animation times**
DW Sweep:  1.45 seconds  
Whirlwind:    1.95 seconds  
Riposte:        1.2  seconds 
Flurry:            1 .8  seconds  
Punisher:      2.85 seconds  
Cripple:         1.45 seconds   
 
As stated in the OP, Cripple is mostly worthless for damage for every build.  From a pure dps perspective, whirlwind is worth using for everyone on two targets or more (just barely for the dagger build, though--and certainly not for a rogue vs fewer than three or four targets).  Punisher is probably not worth using for the dagger build unless you just want the knockdown.  Flurry, Riposte, and DW sweep are great for everyone.

Modifié par soteria, 31 juillet 2010 - 08:00 .

[Random70]

Nice breakdown, Soteria.

I will note that the auto attack numbers are too low as..

1) The aggregate auto score is for normal hits only - no crits

2) I haven't gotten around to fixing an error in the Ax/Sw and Ax/Dag Momentum scores...I used a flat -.3 modifier as opposed to a -30% modifier so the Ax/Sw will increase ~10% and the Ax/Dag ~ 5%

When I get around to updating, I'll add this section (S/S as well) along with BC's animation timings, if you guys don't mind.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
On a side note the Hexes can only take you down to -75%, not -100%. 

Did you verify this in the scripts? The all-knowing wiki has max debuff @ -100%

And yes, you're totally right...there is no point to actually buff like this beyond the 'ZOMG! BIG 'SPLOSIONS!' factor.

Modifié par Random70, 31 juillet 2010 - 05:39 .

[soteria]

The main thing that has jumped out at me is that I'm a lot more enthusiastic about analyzing data than collecting it.

As for the crits, that should be easy enough theorize an approximation. You have the crit chance and crit modifier listed there--crit modifier is additive, right? So the three builds are dealing 175%, 205%, and 195% critical damage, respectively?

Starfang/Veshaille: 175% damage, 10% average crit chance: multiply by 1.175

Veshaille/Rose: 205% damage, 15.7% average crit chance: multiply by 1.322

Rose/Edge: 195% damage, 15.15% average crit chance: multiply by 1.295

I *believe* that's the correct way to add crit damage to dps. Of course, it's not quite right because it's looking at the average of the crit rates, but without independent data for the damage each weapon is dealing, I'm not sure what else to do. Assuming my math is right (and it may very well be wrong), that makes the adjusted dps numbers 77 (from 65.5), 103 (from 77.9), and 117 (from 90.6).

Strength build aside, that changes things, doesn't it? I'm sure beancounter would tell me there's way too much theorycraft going on up in here, and he might be right. Even if my math is right, I wonder if I'm using the numbers correctly.

[kongenial]

I'm not sure if this was already answerd anywhere else or if this is even known, but is the critical hit depending on the attack score or is it a "auto-hit" equivalent to a d20 roll? And are buffs like flame weapons or runes also modified?

I'm just asking because I think this would make the calculation of criticals more difficult.

[beancounter501]

^ It is a completely seperate roll. The game rolls to hit and then rolls for a critical.



@Soteria - you can not take the total damage and multiply it by the crit mult. Only your Base Weapon Damage and your Attribute Mod actually get multipied in a crit. The actual calculation on a crit is:



(Base Weapon + Attribute Mod) * Crit Mod + (Level Dmg + Talent Bonus (Like Zerker) + Weapon Bonus + Runes + Weapon Enchantments)



It is one of the few areas that actual favors large weapons, since they have higher attribute mods and base weapon damage.

[Yrkoon]

soteria wrote...

Flurry -           High: 287, Low: 212, Avg: 248.38, Hi / Lo Avg: 249.50 = 139
Punisher -    High: 348, Low: 278, Avg: 317.71, Hi / Lo Avg: 313.00 = 110

Excuse my  possible first glance ignorance, but this doesn't look right.

How are you arriving at the conclusion that punisher's DPS is lower than flurry's here based on the hi's and low's you posted for them?

[mousestalker]

Y'all are a lot more savvy than I, but is anyone else fond of using sweep as a finishing move in multi opponent fight? Rather than starting with it against two or more foes, I like to finish off one with it and then move onto the next. I don't have any reason for that other than it seems more efficient somehow.

[Yrkoon]

Depends on which sweep. With Dual weapon sweep the cooldown is so low that nothing is stopping you from using it a couple of times in any given fight... start and finish.



On the other hand, 2h-sweep is indeed a good finishing move, but in my opinion, its knockdown ability has too much utility value to waste as a finisher.

[soteria]

Excuse my possible first glance ignorance, but this doesn't look right.

How are you arriving at the conclusion that punisher's DPS is lower than flurry's here based on the hi's and low's you posted for them?

Because Punisher's animation takes a full second longer. All I'm doing is dividing the average by the animation time. Arguably Punisher is better than it appears here, because the knockdown makes it take longer.

@Soteria - you can not take the total damage and multiply it by the crit mult. Only your Base Weapon Damage and your Attribute Mod actually get multipied in a crit. The actual calculation on a crit is:

(Base Weapon + Attribute Mod) * Crit Mod + (Level Dmg + Talent Bonus (Like Zerker) + Weapon Bonus + Runes + Weapon Enchantments)

Ahhh. That makes sense. Of course, I can't just include rune damage and everything else in there when I'm multiplying. That's what I get for doing math at 4 in the morning. Well, that makes figuring critical damage considerably more difficult.

[Random70]

soteria wrote...
I'm sure beancounter would tell me there's way too much theorycraft going on up in here...

Since when has that ever stopped us?

A couple of things...

* I didn't notice last night, as the late hour and the Miller Lite were not allowing the gears to mesh properly but it seems as though you used the Hi/Low value for your calculations. This is an average of only 2 hits and I only included it in an attempt to highlight any outliers in the results. The 'AVG' score is based upon 15+ hits and is the more accurate of the two.

* As most of the data in the OP is based upon a small sample size there is already a certain measure of error built in. As opposed to turning this whole thing into a mathematical exercise, a 'quick & dirty' method of integrating criticals would be to use the difference between 'Avg Normal' and 'Avg Crit' as the bonus damage value. The issue with this method is that for the DW data I tracked Cripple instead of crits. Cripple only hits with the main hand so the value will be too high for the Ax / Dag...

[soteria]

* I didn't notice last night, as the late hour and the Miller Lite were not allowing the gears to mesh properly but it seems as though you used the Hi/Low value for your calculations. This is an average of only 2 hits and I only included it in an attempt to highlight any outliers in the results. The 'AVG' score is based upon 15+ hits and is the more accurate of the two.

Keeping me honest. Yep. I edited it... it affected some numbers more than others--a few had deviations as high as 6-7%.

* As most of the data in the OP is based upon a small sample size there is already a certain measure of error built in. As opposed to turning this whole thing into a mathematical exercise, a 'quick & dirty' method of integrating criticals would be to use the difference between 'Avg Normal' and 'Avg Crit' as the bonus damage value. The issue with this method is that for the DW data I tracked Cripple instead of crits. Cripple only hits with the main hand so the value will be too high for the Ax / Dag...

Ah, so that's why Cripple already looks so good (relatively) for the Veshaille/Rose build?

Oh, a minor note:  I didn't use the auto-attack numbers that included flaming weapons on accident.  To me, at least, having such a min/maxed build that you're using all GM damage runes and flaming weapons with a high-spellpower mage isn't "normal" enough to interest me as a point of comparison, but for the sake of consistency, I'll go back and edit the auto-attack numbers to include both unbuffed weapons and fully buffed.

Modifié par soteria, 31 juillet 2010 - 06:45 .

[Random70]

OP updated with new values for Ax/Sw and Ax/Dag with Momentum

Vesh / Star
Mom Only:    666.00
w/ Runes:     823.20
Runes/FW: 1032.80

Vesh / Rose
Mom only:     722.20
w/Runes:      918.70
Runes/FW: 1180.70

[soteria]

Who else wishes we could change the font to Courier New for this sort of thing?

[Khavos]

So it looks like Strength-built Axe & Shield comes in right in the middle with both talent spamming and auto attack damage...am I just reading it wrong, or is that some rather impressive damage for the "defensive" spec?

[soteria]

It's not really very "defensive," technically, but yes, it's fairly impressive in damage. Really, the defensive difference between a str S&S build and a str DW build is Shield Wall.

[Khavos]

soteria wrote...

It's not really very "defensive," technically, but yes, it's fairly impressive in damage. Really, the defensive difference between a str S&S build and a str DW build is Shield Wall.

Sure, but S&S has fewer damaging talents, and knockdown immunity.  Seems like it might be a lot better than I thought if you can get very near to 2H damage with decent defense and knockdown immunity.