168 réponses à ce sujet

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Actually, Busomjack has stepped over the line of trolling and has wandered into the arena of the libelous.

Not really, I have not named any individuals I have just stated that the majority of PC gamers are pirates.  I stand by that as I have seen several surveys where the majority of PC gamers admit to piracy.
Not to mention several torrent websites are the most popular websites on the internet.

In any case, this conversation is going nowhere and I tire of it.  I'll take my leave.

I must have imagined when Busomjack accused me of being a PC pirate, promoting and advocating illegal activities, being a criminal, etc, just because my ps3 copy of Dragon Age isn't registered on this site...

[Randomactss]

Busomjack works for Ubisoft, true story.

[Stanley Woo]

Overly political post removed. Remember, folks, that politics are not permitted in this forum. If this discussion goes too far over the line, it will be locked.

[joey_mork84]

Busomjack wrote...

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Actually, Busomjack has stepped over the line of trolling and has wandered into the arena of the libelous.

Not really, I have not named any individuals I have just stated that the majority of PC gamers are pirates.  I stand by that as I have seen several surveys where the majority of PC gamers admit to piracy.
Not to mention several torrent websites are the most popular websites on the internet.

In any case, this conversation is going nowhere and I tire of it.  I'll take my leave.

You know, I can go find many surveys to the contrary. Simply stating there are surveys is no basis for a valid argument. I doubt very seriously that the 'majority of PC gamers are pirates', simply because not only do the majority of PC gamers not even know how to pirate a game, let alone consider doing it. A very small amount of PC users have the know-how to pirate and/or download and use a pirated game, so that right there should tell you otherwise. Just because someone plays PC games doesn't by any means say they are a potential game pirate.

Oh, and just some FYI, torrent websites aren't soley for pirating games. You can get much more from them than just games, like images, music, and videos, which are more than likely the main reason anyone goes there in the first place.

You're welcome for the corrections

EDIT: Before you say anything, no, I'm not and never will be 'pro-piracy'. Just thought I would mention that since it seems everyone else who has replied to one of your posts with something to the contrary, you consider to automatically be for piracy. I simply corrected your outlandish statements. I, for one, don't always have a stable internet connection, therefor am against DRM and will never buy a game with this 'feature'. And before you go on with your 'Then buy a console' argument, not everyone can afford the console on which these games are made. Having a PC is cheaper and easier. If you buy a game and can't play it because of a simple hardware incompatibility, its much cheaper and easier to upgrade that peice of hardware rather than buy a console. Consider that my disclaimer

Modifié par joey_mork84, 31 mai 2010 - 03:57 .

[Randomactss]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Overly political post removed. Remember, folks, that politics are not permitted in this forum. If this discussion goes too far over the line, it will be locked.

VOTE FOR Chris Priestly!

He is fit and ready for the job, he had voodoo powers, and eat a cake in under a hour.





This message is payed for by Drunken Gnomes corp.






I'm sorry I had to.

[Stinkface27]

@ this whole thread

[Randomactss]

Stinkface27 wrote...

@ this whole thread

What I want to see is a chart on how much is spent on DRM per a game and how much more/less money is made if the game does NOT have DRM, or little drm *just a keycode*

[Fexelea]

No DRM is not the answer: proper DRM is the answer, which means more intricate mechanisms that are non intrusive on legitimate users but pose a serious block to the hackers to guarantee a considerable difference between release and crack. Add to that a variety of enticements to have the legitimate product, and you diminish the problem considerably.

[Feraele]

Busomjack wrote...

PC gamers need internet connection to go to their precious torrent websites where they "acquire" (aren't I clever! lol!) all of their games so I don't see why internet access is really an issue for PC gamers.

Still, if you live in an area where you lack a stable internet access then you should get the console versions. There are some areas where certain hardware isn't readily available either.

I don't use Torrent, have never used Torrent..and I ALWAYS pay for my online games or standalone games.   I am a PC owner.

There goes that theory Busom.    But..carry on....please. 

[Feraele]

Busomjack wrote...

Ummm, people are complaining about requiring internet connection. Being that that IS a system requirement as it says on the box I think that qualifies as complaining about system requirements.

Thats the silliest thing I have ever read. 

Really.  lol    Internet connection is not part of your computer ..therefore it is NOT part of the system requirement.  It is however, a requirement to be connected to the internet through an ISP in order to access the game servers.

Hope that unmuddled your thoughts.

[Feraele]

Fexelea wrote...

No DRM is not the answer: proper DRM is the answer, which means more intricate mechanisms that are non intrusive on legitimate users but pose a serious block to the hackers to guarantee a considerable difference between release and crack. Add to that a variety of enticements to have the legitimate product, and you diminish the problem considerably.

The trouble with DRM is...they aren't perfect, and sometimes they boot you off the game..whilst you are connected online.

I experienced this several times whilst playing Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (another EA title..Mythic is the dev)

I am suspecting the same thing here with DA:O and its dlcs/expansion.     Mysterious disconnects..just poof and you are on your desktop,  then when you hit "Resume" ...the dang thing is asking if you are the owner of my whole list of dlc and expansion.

I don't think ANY drm should be applied to ANY game until they have been thoroughly tested, so as to not annoy their legitimate customers.   

Bet that won't happen however.....

[DragonRageGT]

You know that there are games and softwares that are officially distributes by torrent peer-to-peer filesharing, right? There's not wrong with Torrents. It's how we use it that determines it. It is a lot less criminal than having a gun in a house with kids, imho, but still, just having the gun doesn't make one a criminal!

[Feraele]

RageGT wrote...

You know that there are games and softwares that are officially distributes by torrent peer-to-peer filesharing, right? There's not wrong with Torrents. It's how we use it that determines it. It is a lot less criminal than having a gun in a house with kids, imho, but still, just having the gun doesn't make one a criminal!

Ahh I've always been under the impression that it was only illegal games being downloaded there, so I've never used it.     I'm not a cheat.   I pay my way.

[Feraele]

RageGT wrote...

You know that there are games and softwares that are officially distributes by torrent peer-to-peer filesharing, right? There's not wrong with Torrents. It's how we use it that determines it. It is a lot less criminal than having a gun in a house with kids, imho, but still, just having the gun doesn't make one a criminal!

There are no weapons in my house.    Well except my BIG dog hehehe

[Fexelea]

Faraele: Yes my earlier point that game companies should outsource the design of security measures is a necessary step to the solution I propose. Having seen the numbers of what it would cost to have top notch private consultants design your security encription, I actually think it would be rather affordable and that games companies are going around this the wrong way.

[The Grey Spectre]

♪♫Hey...this thread again, I fell in love with you again.♪♫

wolfsite wrote...
(I believe the pirates cracked Assasin's Creed 2 within 24 hours of release.)

No it wasn't fully and properly cracked, as said here, but as of now it is, completely. "Pirates" will never be motivated to buy because of DRM. The reason being (as you said earlier) that DRM just doesn't work (as of now anyway). They know that EVERYTHING is cracked eventually, and if they can't get it immediately, they'll wait for it. As long as crackers keep proving that DRM doesn't work, it will always be true that DRM is waste of time and money.

I guess this was SKIDROW's message,

Thank you Ubisoft, this was quite a challenge for us, but
nothing stops the leading force from doing what we do. Next
time focus on the game and not on the DRM. It was probably
horrible for all legit users. We just make their lives easier.

and all of this suggests that Ubisoft is hurting themselves more than they are piracy, with doing nothing more than encouraging legitimate buyers to pirate their game because of their DRM.

Randomactss wrote...
What I want to see is a chart on how much is spent on DRM per a game and how much more/less money is made if the game does NOT have DRM, or little drm *just a keycode*

The only thing I can think of is 2D boy (World of Goo) selling two games, one with DRM and one without, and they came to the conclusion that "there seemed to be no difference in the outcomes".

[invert180]

Fexelea wrote...

Faraele: Yes my earlier point that game companies should outsource the design of security measures is a necessary step to the solution I propose. Having seen the numbers of what it would cost to have top notch private consultants design your security encription, I actually think it would be rather affordable and that games companies are going around this the wrong way.

The majority of companies already outsource DRM.  That's what names like SecuRom, TAGES, StarForce, and SafeDisc are... copy protection that is designed by other folks, not the game developers themselves.  There are already entire companies are devoted to developing DRM.  But they all get cracked really, really fast.  Guaranteed.

[Dethateer]

Fexelea wrote...



No DRM is not the answer: proper
DRM is the answer, which means more intricate mechanisms that are non
intrusive on legitimate users but pose a serious block to the hackers to
guarantee a considerable difference between release and crack. Add to
that a variety of enticements to have the legitimate product, and you
diminish the problem considerably.

Problem is that...

The Grey Spectre wrote...

"Pirates" will never be motivated to buy because of DRM. The reason being (as you said earlier) that DRM just doesn't work (as of now anyway). They know that EVERYTHING is cracked eventually, and if they can't get it immediately, they'll wait for it. As long as crackers keep proving that DRM doesn't work, it will always be true that DRM is waste of time and money.

Crackers would do it even if they had to shred apart the whole program and rebuild it.

MessyPossum wrote...

Busomjack wrote...



It's
a real shame and PC gamers are responsible for it.

You
callous jerks! Bow your heads in shame... Lower! I can't believe the
nerve, the, the audacity some of you have that come in here, with your
legal registered copies of games that truly support the developers. And,
and you come in here with your... tricorner hats and your... pegged
legs and... your faces. You disgust me, all of you.

Yarr! We be sendin' ye ta Davey Jones' locker,
ya filthy
landlubber!

[Fexelea]

@Invert180: I should clarify: When I said outsourcing I wasn't referring to buying a pre-packaged solution, but rather getting a "real" security consultant involved, like other software and hardware companies do to defend their infrastructure and products. In the past this was prohibitive as games budget was not at par with those of the security standards, but now it is. This particular article highlights the cost of the internal team to do it, an approach that is very common and not effective as the best in security do not work in games and games developers are not the best at security.



@Dethateer: What you point out regarding the determination of hackers is true, however the important thing for the company is not wether the software can be cracked but more a matter of when. There are post-release deadlines that companies want to meet as they have become the industry's (faulty and fallacious but sadly ongoing) "success or flunk" meter.

If games companies are trully concerned and trully believe that pirates can be legitimate consumers, designing something so hard to crack that it takes 3 months after launch would ensure they maximize the sales that they get in the period, and realize the pirates who don't buy just don't buy even if it never becomes available. (As an aside, I still think that the proposed "lost sales" numbers attributed to piracy are greatly exaggerated and an excuse more than anything else)

[Dethateer]

That's still illegal. Just like an amazing number of things nearly everyone does with their games (eg, modding, in most cases).

[Fexelea]

Well this is where companies do have a workoarund.



I have a disc copy of Diablo 2, so I can download digital copies of it onto my computers as well. This simple detail makes life easy, and so many companies could easily allow you the same treatment.

[invert180]

Fexelea wrote...

@Invert180: I should clarify: When I said outsourcing I wasn't referring to buying a pre-packaged solution, but rather getting a "real" security consultant involved, like other software and hardware companies do to defend their infrastructure and products. In the past this was prohibitive as games budget was not at par with those of the security standards, but now it is. This particular article highlights the cost of the internal team to do it, an approach that is very common and not effective as the best in security do not work in games and games developers are not the best at security.

But that's what this whole argument is about... what a pointless waste of money that DRM is.  Spend that money on something worthwhile instead.  Maybe advertising.  Maybe extra content for the game itself.  Maybe some other incentive features.  Or maybe give the developers a bigger budget to make a better game.  Don't waste it on DRM.  If someone is intent on not purchasing games, it's unlikely DRM will change their mind.

They'll wait because they know everything gets cracked.  There are highly skilled and intelligent hackers out there who live to break security.  It's entertaining to them, like doing Sudoku or something.  And if they're able to crack it before anyone else, it's like a badge of honour.

I'm all for minor forms of copy protection, such as not allowing individuals to easily replicate the physical media... but anything beyond that is, to me, utterly pointless and serves only to turn off your own customers.

Modifié par invert180, 31 mai 2010 - 09:10 .

[Fexelea]

It really depends on how it is designed and implemented. Hackers are rather smart but it is obvious that the corporate security designers are smarter. How does Apple maintain its communications secure? How do governments encript their information? The people who design those security systems aren't government employees, they are private consultants and accessible to anyone, and they are actually rather affordable when compared to the stupid money wasted on useless and intrusive drm like the one we see now.



I agree with you that the money being used now would be better spent on enticing prospective customers rather than designing cages to put them in, however I do believe that secure and non intrusive drm is possible, affordable, and possibly even useful (to an extent lol)