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[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Without the treaty, the Chantry won't offer up enough mages. Hell, they only sent seven to Ostagar.
The Dalish wouldn't support them without a treaty (or solving a werewolf crisis but they wouldn't have asked the shems for aid) and not everyone is convinced they exist.
The dwarves probably should help since they face darkspawn all the time but again, they ONLY help because of that treaty. Otherwise, they think it's a Surface problem. Loghain tried sending his idiot 'King Loghain' henchman but he couldn't even get in and had he waited around until he could that doesn't mean he would have been able to get the support.

It was far easier to just ask the fellow human nations for assistance.

I don't argue that they probably would have failed, given the problems that the various factions were having. But they didn't even try. Loghain tried, but he didn't exactly have Ferelden's support, either. Certainly getting help from Orlais was the easiest choice, (edit, ah let me rephrase this)

The dwarves are a foreign nation just as much as the Orlesians and everyone knows that it's a mutual relationship of not caring about the other. The mages can't help because of the Chantry and there aren't enough of them anyway although Cailan does try. SEVEN?!?! The Dalish have no nation and are very clear that they don't care about Ferelden. If they know that these groups won't or can't help then it is smarter to go with one that can. Yes, they may invade but Ferelden isn't destroyed first.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The dwarves are a foreign nation just as much as the Orlesians and everyone knows that it's a mutual relationship of not caring about the other. The mages can't help because of the Chantry and there aren't enough of them anyway although Cailan does try. SEVEN?!?! The Dalish have no nation and are very clear that they don't care about Ferelden. If they know that these groups won't or can't help then it is smarter to go with one that can. Yes, they may invade but Ferelden isn't destroyed first.

If Ferelden had appealed to these factions with an angle of those factions coming together to save Ferelden, then no it would never have worked. Ferelden would have had to have gone to them with the same angle that the treaties take, which is convincing that combining the armies is in the self interest of each faction. On the grounds of self-interest, I can definitely see how it would be much harder if not impossible to get more mages from the Chantry, because the Chantry probably couldn't care less about preserving the Circle in Ferelden, but still on the grounds of self-interest, they might have been able to convince the Dwarves and Dalish (if not for the civil war and werewolf problems, which they wouldn't have been able to consider).

[maxernst]

As others have said, there's not a lot of reason for Dalish Elves or Dwarves to care much about Ferelden. Even city elf and mage are arguable...although obviously they're subject to the blight like anybody else if it consumes Ferelden, they might not necessarily feel any great loyalty to Ferelden vs Orlais, for example.



And even for a Human noble character, one could easily imagine them only really caring about Highever. I actually felt the extreme nationalism of Loghain seemed a bit out-of-place in a game with such strong echoes of medieval Europe. In feudal times, loyalties were much more tied to individual relationships than nationalist sentiment.

[KnightofPhoenix]

maxernst wrote...
And even for a Human noble character, one could easily imagine them only really caring about Highever. I actually felt the extreme nationalism of Loghain seemed a bit out-of-place in a game with such strong echoes of medieval Europe. In feudal times, loyalties were much more tied to individual relationships than nationalist sentiment.

Ferelden however clearly demonstrates pseudo-nationalist sentiments. You have Maric telling Loghain that Ferelden is more important than any king. You have their battle cry that is only "For Ferelden". And from the codexes, you read that the Fereldens are a fiercely independent people. In addition to the Mabari being adopted as a national symbol. 

Loghain did not seem to be to be a modern nationalist to me and that that would have been out of place. But he did have some elements of nationalism and that's not really out of place, as Ferelden does have those elements already.

As for caring aobut Ferelden. There are plenty of reasons as others pointed out. But yes I don't see why someone who doesn't give a **** wouldn't just go and join the Wardens on the border (not saying that only this kind of people would choose this option). But the game is limited so what can you do.

As for caring about Ferelden. I actually started caring about it. And was happy to read about the golden age that my Cousland and Anora might potential usher in for Ferelden.  

[Sharn01]

It has been a while since I played the game, but I do not recall Cailen inviting Orleasian armies to come to Fereldan. I thought the whole stink was because the grey wardens where newly returning to Fereldan that they did not have enough, so where brining in more wardens from Orlais, and Loghain has so much hate for Orlais that he did not even want their wardens coming into the country.



In regards to fereldan as a nation, and not the land, I had little care for it. I have always preferred playing elves and I can not think of a single place that I went in the game where I was not belittled for my race, usually quite frequently. So, it this was not a blight but an army that planned on wiping out the country and taking over, I would not get involved, instead it was a disease that destroyed everything in its path, so I did. The new regime certainly would not be worse, though I doubt it would be better, but why would an elf or dwarf concern themselves with human politics?

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, but the Wardens brought wth them four legions of chevaliers.



And I don't think Orzammar cares that you're an elf since they already look down on you for being from the Surface.

[Sharn01]

I do remember some pretty nasty rumors being said about elves by dwarves in orzammar, but I think that just came from ignorance and the fact that they trade with humans who feel free to spread filth and lies about elves every chance they get.

For the most part I felt more welcome in orzammar as an elf then any other place in the game, the people there seemed to mostly be matter of fact about their opinions and beliefs, and certainly gave respect to those who earned it, regardless of what race they where.

I didnt recall the legions being brought, but you are probably correct.  Still the game did not specify how large of a military unit a legion was.

Modifié par Sharn01, 01 juin 2010 - 02:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, but the Wardens brought wth them four legions of chevaliers.

And in the Battle of the River Dane, the Orlesians had two legions and they were sent to reinforce Orlesian rule so they had a pretty big mission. So this shows that four legions is a vast army.

[Costin_Razvan]

Quite alarmingly large....



I mean. A roman Legion had about 5.000 Roman Soldiers and just about as many Auxiliary Troops ( Archers, Skirmishers, Spearmen, Cavalry ).



So if an Orlesian Legion has about 2.000-4.000 Chevaliers, as in heavily armored, skilled horsemen, and just as many regular troops, then you are talking of an army of 16.000-32.000 men, which is HUGE for the Medieval Era.



Saladin himself had almost 20.000 men at Hattin. The Turks conquered Constantinople with about 60.000 men ( and that was considered a massive army mind you ).



So, I would be quite freaked out if an army that size was massing at my country's borders, especially when it is not confirmed to be a Blight, and most nobles in Fereldan agreeing to that, let alone those in Orlais.



Replace risk of getting conquered, with bloody certainty.

[Sarah1281]

But they might have stood a chance at Ostagar.

[Costin_Razvan]

Ostagar was not such a big battle, as battles in Medieval Era go anyway.

I think the Fereldans had about 3.000 troops there, with the Darkspawn numbering 7.000-9.000. This makes sense to me, since only Loghain's, Fergus's, Urien's and Cailan's own troops were there, along with what ever people Loghain could recruit in haste. ( Gathering an army of thousands on very short notice, is no mean feat. Gathering an army of tens of thousands is almost bloody impossible on short notice. )

The strategic value of holding Ostagar is lost anyway, when the Archdemon doesn't even go to the surface for almost an entire year.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 juin 2010 - 09:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Keep in mind that Loghain had only one thousand men at River Dane and he crushed two entire legions. So maybe Orlesian legions are not so numerous. Unless Loghain is even more brilliant than is alluded to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But they might have stood a chance at Ostagar.

A victory at Ostagar would not have been decisive. It was clear that the darkspawn were getting more and more numerous despite the 3 defeats Loghain inflicted upon them and that fact did not escape him.

When fighting against the Blight, the only decisive victory is where the archdemon is killed. The other battles are mostly not so significant strategically.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 juin 2010 - 07:17 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Keep in mind that those numbers the book provided are simply not bloody realistically.



I mean what? A rebellion with just a one hundred, two hundred people ( Loghain himself mentions that the army was swollen dramatically in size, and the men they had before only a very small core ).



Replace one thousand with ten thousand and I will believe it.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

When fighting against the Blight, the only decisive victory is where the archdemon is killed. The other battles are mostly not so significant strategically.

Technically, no, there was no way to "win" at Ostagar without the archdemon appearing, no matter how big your army is. In the best-case scenario, the Orlesians couldn't have helped defeat the Blight quicker, they'd only be there to help contain the Blight until the archdemon appeared.

Modifié par phaonica, 01 juin 2010 - 04:47 .

[maxernst]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Quite alarmingly large....

So if an Orlesian Legion has about 2.000-4.000 Chevaliers, as in heavily armored, skilled horsemen, and just as many regular troops, then you are talking of an army of 16.000-32.000 men, which is HUGE for the Medieval Era.

It's extremely unlikely that they would have that many armored skilled horsemen.  The bulk of any medieval army was made up of lightly armored pikemen and crossbowmen, not knights.  At Agincourt, for example, the French had an army of 36,000 but only 1200 mounted knights.  However, it is true that four legions sounds like a very large army by medieval standards--is it realistic that such an army would stop at the border merely because requested?  William the conqueror had fewer than 10,000 men at Hastings.If hey wanted to conquer Ferelden--which is in a civil war and probably lost a great many of its most experienced warriors at Ostagar--they would have.  There would be little Loghain could do.  Certainly selling a few hundred slaves is not going to raise enough money to build the kind of army required to resist tens of thousands of men.

Modifié par maxernst, 01 juin 2010 - 01:34 .

[Costin_Razvan]

It's extremely unlikely that they would have that many armored skilled horsemen

Three Words for you there: The Mongol Horde.

 However, it is true that four legions sounds like a very large army by medieval standards--is it realistic that such an army would stop at the border merely because requested?

Loghain stopped two Legions a with ragtag army of about 10.000 ( that is what I believe, as I refuse the 1.000 number Gaider provided ) and half a unit of Legionnaires, and that was while the rebellion was in full swing.

If Orlais had attacked, it would have united Fereldan like no other. Ended the Civil War, and the attacking force would have been crushed.

Celene is no idiot. She knows that Fereldans are a force of nature when cornered. Andraste conquered half the entire Imperium, fighting against Blood Mages and elite troops with mere Barbarians.

  There would be little Loghain could do

Except wage Guerrilla War against them, as he had done before. 

The reason Orlais would lose, is the same reason the US lost in Vietnam.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 juin 2010 - 02:49 .

[Kronas]

I think If we could to go back to Lothering after the blight and deal with the distruction not only to the land but the lives of everyone or everything , or made some freinds you left behind , or watered a rose bush you'd have more vested in the protection (love) for Ferelden. (( give it some meaning when you play its supposed to be your home)) (((sappy?)))