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[Xeranx]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But Shepard can still make a spectacle of himself and not get her attention. And even if Shepard does get her attention, he can still lose it by talking about the wrong things can't he/she? If Morinth was aware of Shepard before meeting him/her at Omega then why would she have been surprised that he could resist her mental powers? She even asks "Who are you?" and doesn't realize Samara is behind it all until a second after that.

Morinth wouldn't be aware of Shepard.  At least not in any way that would have her think (s)he is a threat to her (especially about Shepards ability to resist her mental powers), but being on the run she would still have to go through any information that might be relevant to her.  

When Morinth sees Shepard in Afterlife all she sees is someone either grandstanding or working people with skill.  To her Shepard may be a potential ally, threat, or nothing to get anxious about.  Unknown quantities need to be sussed out especially if you're in the situation Morinth is in.  That you can lose her attention means that she doesn't consider you of any help or threat to her in any way.  You pretty much are no better than the guy you first meet when you walk into the VIP section who wants to buy tickets for that band simply to get into her pants.

Why Morinth was surprised about Shepard being able to resist her powers is because it's never happened before.  On the Normandy, Morinth says she's never able to feel the love of another for very long because of her condition.  It's like Rogue in X-men who can't fully experience anything and everything with someone without risk of hurting them.  Her initial reaction asking who you are is just what it appears to be:  wonder with a bit of excitement until it dawns on her that her luck might not be that great since the likelihood of someone able to withstand her capabilities just walking into Afterlife on happenstance is too good to be true.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think that Shepard being able to resist her mental domination is anything exciting to her at all. We know that Shepard can't survive melding with her. I have a feeling she knows that too, but that is nether here nor there. If he can withstand her mind control it just means that there's someone with a stronger will than she expected, and that is a separate issue. And nothing good for her. It doesn't mean that she is excited that she might be able to love someone without killing them.



I'm not sure if Rouge is the best analogy. She can't even touch someone without hurting them, Morinth however can. But she can have asari sex with them without killing them.

[Bhatair]

Yeah! It's totally worth it!


Oh.. wait no it's not.

I could see choosing Morinth if you're a total bastard renegade Shep though, just to avoid confrontation with Samara later.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Xeranx wrote...

Being an adult I find it preposterous to think that anyone would whole-heartedly take Samara on as a member of their crew considering the fact that when you meet Samara you see her kill an unarmed individual who is no threat to her or anyone else at the time, and who also expresses that she will kill any and all law enforcement if she feels she has to though the reason they want to detain her is because of the chaos she's caused.  Before that Samara threatens the eclipse merc with something along the lines of, "Your life for information" and she means it, which in my mind is nowhere near the height of honorable.  I expect the eclipse merc to that and not someone bearing the name Justicar.

Going back to the initial statement of Samara willing to kill cops to further her goals: if Samara had done so she would have left a void for more dangerous criminals to come in and start making a mess of everything.  Talk to Jack on Illium and she makes a comment about Illium and Omega.

That Eclipse merc was a criminal. She killed a civilian to earn her uniform. While I disagreed with Samara's somewhat ruthless way of dealing with her, it's not as if she was doing it to some random person on the street.

As for her killing figures of authority, again I disagree, but she does give them a chance to stand down, rather than simply kill them the moment they try to arrest her. She's more honourable than most of the people in the ME universe.

Considering she seems to be picky and your info from Samara paints Shepard as a perfect ideal for Morinth despite the fact that she (Morinth) went after Nef who seems to be the exact opposite of Shepard.  Shepard being "an artist on the battlefield" seemed too contrived for me to really take what she was saying seriously.

Nef wasn't Morinth's only victim, and I doubt she was the only type of person Morinth preyed upon. I don't see any reason for Samara not to suggest Shepard would be an ideal target for her.

I agree.  The whole Samara/Morinth story wasn't deep enough to make any kind of decision, but up until that point everything I got from Samara seemed to not be all that up to fluff.  As soon as Samara told me she would kill cops to further her soltary goal despite the goal of law enforcement on a world she doesn't have residence in everything she said was suspect.  The only thing I did accept as the truth was that Morinth was intelligent and smart.  To evade someone that every Asari respects (despite their misgivings about what they do) for 400 years I'd imagine you'd have to be capable of losing a tail.

So you don't quite trust Samara. I understand that. But when you do your own investigating, how can you not see Morinth as anything other than an evil *****?

We don't know how Nef was treated by Morinth.  Morinth could have been with Nef for months as far as we know and if that's the case then Nef wasn't a toy, but as I said we don't know how long Morinth was on Omega.  Could have been a few days, a few weeks, or a few months.  We were never able to identify who Jaruut was so we're left without any more information as to what was going on before Shepard got back to Omega.

Judging from Nef's diary and Samara's comments, I'd say Morinth treated her the same way she does all her victims: she pretends to be deeply infatuated with them so that they'll eventually have sex with her. Also, I don't see how the amount of time they were together should matter. Whether it was day, weeks or months, Morinth was merely using Nef for her own benefit.

Also, thanks to Bhatair, I just remembered Morinth's reaction after you die if you choose to have sex with her: pure joy. If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.

Modifié par ThisIsMadness91, 01 juin 2010 - 11:20 .

[Xeranx]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think that Shepard being able to resist her mental domination is anything exciting to her at all. We know that Shepard can't survive melding with her. I have a feeling she knows that too, but that is nether here nor there. If he can withstand her mind control it just means that there's someone with a stronger will than she expected, and that is a separate issue. And nothing good for her. It doesn't mean that she is excited that she might be able to love someone without killing them.

I'm not sure if Rouge is the best analogy. She can't even touch someone without hurting them, Morinth however can. But she can have asari sex with them without killing them.

Why would finding someone who can resist your ability to dominate a mind not be exciting to a "tragic figure" being hunted because instead of taking option A or B she chose option C.  You're either going to live in a gated community of others like you and be reminded for the next (since she ran away at 40) 960 years of why you're there or you're going to be killed.  Are you going to say that given the choices here that  while on the run you wouldn't wish to just be like everyone else so that you don't have to worry about someone trying to kill you every second of every day?  I would think finding someone who isn't like everyone else would validate me and give me irrefutable proof that I can just be a regular person and not have to worry about being hunted ( at least for the next 120 years if Shepard lives that long).  After 400 years of running that's about 120 years of peace.

As for Shepard not being able to survive the meld, we don't know that until the very end of the game.  Considering that whether you're able to survive or not is completely optional...actually not optional, but that you could actually miss it and not know it isn't telling in my opinion.  That you have to wait until after you succeed with the mission to find out technically (if not actually) means nothing.  Even then, when you try you get a game over screen that asks you to resume, load, or exit game.  When Shepard can actually die during the mission you don't ever get that option.  It makes me think there might be something I missed and originally after I did that I thought maybe there was something I didn't find that would allow me to progress in my relationship with Morinth since (IIRC) we were told we wouldn't be able to have a romance with Samara, but Morinth was never stated.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

My understanding is that Morinth is hunted not for her mind dominating powers but for her brain hemorrhage causing sex powers. Shepard might be (potentially) immune to the former but the latter is always fatal to him or her unless they simply avoid it.

[Anacoluthe]

Xeranx wrote...

Anacoluthe wrote...

Don't forget that Morinth's not only a sadistic serial killer, but that she's also an annoying science-fiction gothic wannabe with stupidly unoriginal and boring lines of dialogue.

As far as Morinth being a sadistic killer there's proof that she isn't.

Taken from merriam webster dictionary:

http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/sadist

Main Entry: sa·dism[/b] Pronunciation: \\\\\\\\ˈsā-ˌdi-zəm, ˈsa-\\\\\\\\Function: noun[/i]Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Marquis de Sade[/i]Date: 18881[/b] :[/b] a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by the infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object) — comparemasochism
2 a[/b] :[/b] delight in cruelty b[/b] :[/b] excessive cruelty— sa·dist[/b]  \\\\\\\\ˈsā-dist, ˈsa-\\\\\\\\ noun[/i]— sa·dis·tic[/b]  \\\\\\\\sə-ˈdis-tik also[/i] sā- or[/i] sa-\\\\\\\\adjective[/i]— sa·dis·ti·cal·ly[/b]  \\\\\\\\-ti-k(ə-)lē\\\\\\\\ adverb[/i] 

Morinth kills by giving incredible pleasure.  She says it herself, "they die feeling pleasure they can't even imagine". Where's the pain involved if all they feel is pleasure?  Where does Morinth become sadistic?

Anacoluthe wrote...
"On chess, she said: "I love any game where your opponent thinks he's about to win right up to the point you kill him," or words to that effect. And on duelling with swords: She relishes "the look in your opponent's eyes when he realizes you're better than he is and he's about to die.""[/b]

Chess is a battle of wits.  Dueling is a battle of skill.  Both reflect that she is contesting with the other and not that she takes advantage of the other person.  Those two pieces made me think that she knew there was something up, but wasn't quite sure what was happening.

Wow, thank you for those crispy bits of dickness!

O.K., actual reply:

First, the "sadistic serial killer" thing was a figure of speech. Your litteral interpretation of my words seems like you just wanted to yell "IDIOT" at my face, then just "LOL" and leave me alone with my hurted feelings, but maybe it's just me feeling insulted, 'cause maybe you like Morinth as a character and try your best to defend her from prejudice and are, because of that, a bit too defensive. And I would respect that.

Second, you are... Well, I think your second argument is a pretty valid one, and also an interesting one ! I really like what you're suggesting, because it would give Morinth a very pleasant trait: ****ing cleverness.

Maybe I'll pay a bit more attention next time I'll play...

BUT! I still can't stand that " badly written gothic wannabe atmosphere" surrounding Samara's Loyalty mission. Jesus. Even the frigging guy at the door of the nightclub is so... God awful! I bet his name is something along the lines of  "Plot Device".

But... maybe you have some good ideas about that, too? I'm really interested now that you've shown me that "little something"  And I'm sorry for my dickish attitude at the begining of this reply :innocent:

[Xeranx]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

That Eclipse merc was a criminal. She killed a civilian to earn her uniform. While I disagreed with Samara's somewhat ruthless way of dealing with her, it's not as if she was doing it to some random person on the street.

Not to defend Elnora, but she killed a Volus who smuggled red sand (a legally obtainable item) on Illium and tried to sell a substance that can boost biotic power without mentioning that it was toxic.  If someone sold you a drug that was supposed to make you feel more energetic, but would kill you slowly at the same time what would you do or like to do to that person?

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

As for her killing figures of authority, again I disagree, but she does give them a chance to stand down, rather than simply kill them the moment they try to arrest her. She's more honourable than most of the people in the ME universe.

I would love to reach the heights of honorablity that I can look a law enforcement official in the face and inform them that trying to handcuff me would be perceived as an attack and I'd be well within my rights to kill them and have said cops back down instead of perceiving me as a threat and killing me outright.

Also the fact that she pretty much killed every Asari adult in one village and left only the kids alive.  I would think that by the time the numbers became more manageable she could have subdued them instead of killing them all and leaving those kids without parents or guardians.  That she left the kids in the care of others after the fact means nothing to me.  Am I supposed to be more sympathetic to the person who has complete control of herself and is a willing mass murderer over an individual who can't control herself  because of her genetics and is able to pick victims one at a time (and that's if Morinth is wholly evil)?
 

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Nef wasn't Morinth's only victim, and I doubt she was the only type of person Morinth preyed upon. I don't see any reason for Samara not to suggest Shepard would be an ideal target for her.

Do you mean her only victim on Omega or total?  We know Nef is not the only casualty and I don't doubt that Morinth has gone after other personality types, but I find it doubtful that at 440 years old Morinth's taste haven't moved on beyond what Samara believes is fact.  It left me thinking, why can't Samara be wrong about Morinth.  I just wish there were a way to warn Morinth so she could run since we are told that she would rather run from Samara than fight her.

I agree.  The whole Samara/Morinth story wasn't deep enough to make any kind of decision, but up until that point everything I got from Samara seemed to not be all that up to fluff.  As soon as Samara told me she would kill cops to further her soltary goal despite the goal of law enforcement on a world she doesn't have residence in everything she said was suspect.  The only thing I did accept as the truth was that Morinth was intelligent and smart.  To evade someone that every Asari respects (despite their misgivings about what they do) for 400 years I'd imagine you'd have to be capable of losing a tail.

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

So you don't quite trust Samara. I understand that. But when you do your own investigating, how can you not see Morinth as anything other than an evil *****?

Apart from the video log everything else is innocuous.  There's nothing damning there.  The video logs, also don't really show any damning evidence.  It pretty much illustrates Nef as being what she says she means (I'm just some dumb kid from Omega = I'm nothing important).  It illustrates an unhealthy attraction on Nef's part which could have simply destroyed any and all of Samara's points if we had found out that Morinth didn't use any mind control on her whatsoever.

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Judging from Nef's diary and Samara's comments, I'd say Morinth treated her the same way she does all her victims: she pretends to be deeply infatuated with them so that they'll eventually have sex with her. Also, I don't see how the amount of time they were together should matter. Whether it was day, weeks or months, Morinth was merely using Nef for her own benefit.

I believe that point of reference would be very key to describing the kind of relationship they had.  If it was only a few days it would enforce the idea that Morinth was evil through and through, if it were a few weeks there's some ambiguity, or if it were a few months maybe Morinth's not in it for power and death.  We're given length of time for other characters to respond to us.  If Shepard has been with Cerberus this whole time for two years maybe he/she isn't who I thought they were.

In the investigation I take Samara out of the helpful partner bit since she's too close to the investigation.  Anyone that close can't be considered objective about what's going on and the fact that you're drawn every picture about how devious, coniving, and whatever (all but the picture Samara gives us about Morinth being tragic, but unsympathetic) puts too much smoke in the air for me to see clearly.

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Also, thanks to Bhatair, I just remembered Morinth's reaction after you die if you choose to have sex with her: pure joy. If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.

Could be joy at killing the tool (as in object and not jerk) that brought about the death of her mother regardless of the fact that it was Samara's fault that Shepard got involved anyway.  Morinth would have run away rather than fight her mother.  That Morinth calls Samara mother even during that fight states that she knows where she exists on the rung in relation to Samara.  She's not her equal, but she was cornered and she ran away so she could exist.  She will not just let someone snuff her out.

[Xeranx]

Anacoluthe wrote...

Wow, thank you for those crispy bits of dickness!

O.K., actual reply:

First, the "sadistic serial killer" thing was a figure of speech. Your litteral interpretation of my words seems like you just wanted to yell "IDIOT" at my face, then just "LOL" and leave me alone with my hurted feelings, but maybe it's just me feeling insulted, 'cause maybe you like Morinth as a character and try your best to defend her from prejudice and are, because of that, a bit too defensive. And I would respect that.

Second, you are... Well, I think your second argument is a pretty valid one, and also an interesting one ! I really like what you're suggesting, because it would give Morinth a very pleasant trait: ****ing cleverness.

Maybe I'll pay a bit more attention next time I'll play...

BUT! I still can't stand that " badly written gothic wannabe atmosphere" surrounding Samara's Loyalty mission. Jesus. Even the frigging guy at the door of the nightclub is so... God awful! I bet his name is something along the lines of  "Plot Device".

But... maybe you have some good ideas about that, too? I'm really interested now that you've shown me that "little something"  And I'm sorry for my dickish attitude at the begining of this reply :innocent:

I didn't mean it that way and I'm sorry it came across as it did.  My issue with the term sadistic is that too many people have used it to describe her (and maybe I am being defensive), but nothing about her states that she takes pleasure in the killing of someone by overpowering their nervous system.  However she'll revel in being able to best someone who thought they could take her.  Pretty much how Samara respected Nihlus for using her code against her to get away.