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Asari monogendered reproduction


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#226
Computer_God91

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Crimmsonwind wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...
We must be writing our post at the same time because we have been typing similar responces although your more elaborate then I.

Great minds think alike. :P

I like to see myself sound smart, that's the only reason I elaborate. Plus I think this all actually makes sense, and I've spent way too much time thinking about this. @_@


Indeed they do. So do idiotic minds too though. I believe the theory we have come up with over the last few pages so I too won't be reading the Samara page either because I really don't like to read forum posts I could care less about. I don't elaborate because I feel like I don't need to, but unfortunately as you have seen it takes more time for me to get my point across.

I think our theory makes the most sense.

#227
Crimmsonwind

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yorkj86 wrote...

I see that this is more an argument over semantics, gender (as opposed to "sex", both of which describe different things) and sexual anatomy than it is an argument over the genetic mechanics of Asari reproduction. We go over this a lot because Samara fans are accustomed to dealing with Ardat-Yakshi due to Morinth's relation to her mother. Asari genetics are a frustration.

Well, it went from "Are asari female?" to "but how do they reproduce?" They were sort of tied together; it's hard to explain, it was kind of trying to prove that you could be an all-female race that could still reproduce. I won't even dive into asari genetics, there are so many things that could go on.

All I know is that pure bloods are capable of producing the AY problem. My first thought was that it must be random, if asari reproduction randomizes one set of genes. But if Samara has 3 daughters, and they're all Ardat-Yakshi, I'm not sure what the deal is with that.

I mean all I'm working on is some high school science, and the internet. I'm not exactly in a valid position to be making real claims. All I can do is look up things on science websites and wikipedia. -.-

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 01 juin 2010 - 01:24 .


#228
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

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Computer_God91 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

It's hard to play a sport when the rules change every game, as is the case with ME1 and ME2.


What's that supposed to mean?

http://dictionary.die.net/retcon
http://en.wikipedia....i/Contradiction
http://www.merriam-w...ry/inconsistent

And last but not least:  "Not enough information"

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 01 juin 2010 - 01:26 .


#229
Guest_yorkj86_*

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JD's not trying to be rude, that's just the way he likes to explain things.

#230
Crimmsonwind

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Yeah, BioWare does have the get their sh!t together. The codex needs solid rewriting so it doesn't contradict itself. They need to sit down and go over the lore with a team of writers or something, and unify it. That would solve this whole problem.

#231
Crimmsonwind

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yorkj86 wrote...

JD's not trying to be rude, that's just the way he likes to explain things.

Charming.

#232
Computer_God91

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Crimmsonwind wrote...

Yeah, BioWare does have the get their sh!t together. The codex needs solid rewriting so it doesn't contradict itself. They need to sit down and go over the lore with a team of writers or something, and unify it. That would solve this whole problem.


Agreed, then we wouldn't have to sit in forums trying to make sense of the senseless codex.

#233
Computer_God91

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JohnnyDollar wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

It's hard to play a sport when the rules change every game, as is the case with ME1 and ME2.


What's that supposed to mean?

http://dictionary.die.net/retcon
http://en.wikipedia....i/Contradiction
http://www.merriam-w...ry/inconsistent

And last but not least:  "Not enough information"



(Sarcasm) That helped alot thanks.

#234
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

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Computer_God91 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

It's hard to play a sport when the rules change every game, as is the case with ME1 and ME2.


What's that supposed to mean?

http://dictionary.die.net/retcon
http://en.wikipedia....i/Contradiction
http://www.merriam-w...ry/inconsistent

And last but not least:  "Not enough information"



(Sarcasm) That helped alot thanks.

Your welcome
/facetious

#235
Tirigon

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Computer_God91 wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Yeah, BioWare does have the get their sh!t together. The codex needs solid rewriting so it doesn't contradict itself. They need to sit down and go over the lore with a team of writers or something, and unify it. That would solve this whole problem.


Agreed, then we wouldn't have to sit in forums trying to make sense of the senseless codex.


Seconded.

#236
pf17456

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Parthenogenesis (from the Greek παρθένος parthenos, "virgin", + γένεσις genesis, "creation") is a form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male.



I thought the Asari required a partner to reproduce blending parts of their partner's DNA with their own through some tantric sexual melding process. Not quite the same as asexual reproduction where a partner is not needed.

#237
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Computer_God91 wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Yeah, BioWare does have the get their sh!t together. The codex needs solid rewriting so it doesn't contradict itself. They need to sit down and go over the lore with a team of writers or something, and unify it. That would solve this whole problem.


Agreed, then we wouldn't have to sit in forums trying to make sense of the senseless codex.


This is related to what i meant by my "It's hard to play a game when the rules change..." comment.  The ME universe is a part of the ME franchise, which is Bioware's IP, which means it is theirs to fiddle with as much as they want.  Because of this, things can change suddenly to fit the current storyline (a "retcon").

EDIT: And, with the above post, we're getting in to Asari genetics, so I am out of here.

Modifié par yorkj86, 01 juin 2010 - 01:37 .


#238
Crimmsonwind

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JohnnyDollar wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

It's hard to play a sport when the rules change every game, as is the case with ME1 and ME2.


What's that supposed to mean?

http://dictionary.die.net/retcon
http://en.wikipedia....i/Contradiction
http://www.merriam-w...ry/inconsistent

And last but not least:  "Not enough information"



(Sarcasm) That helped alot thanks.

You're welcome.
/facetious

Fixed. *Grammar N*zi salute*

#239
Crimmsonwind

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pf17456 wrote...

Parthenogenesis (from the Greek παρθένος parthenos, "virgin", + γένεσις genesis, "creation") is a form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male.

I thought the Asari required a partner to reproduce blending parts of their partner's DNA with their own through some tantric sexual melding process. Not quite the same as asexual reproduction where a partner is not needed.



To quote Nivenus...


Nivenus wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Nivenus
wrote...

For those who claim that asari aren't female because of their reproductive system. http://en.wikipedia....Parthenogenesis


That
deals with reproduction where the eggs need not to be fertilized. It is
different from what asari do, They NEED a partner.


A
difference that makes no difference in this particular case.

Wikipedia
wrote... (emphasis mine)

An interesting aspect to
reproduction in these asexual lizards is that mating behaviors are still
seen, although the populations are all female.
One female plays the
role played by the male in closely related species, and mounts the
female that is about to lay eggs. This behaviour is due to the hormonal
cycles of the females, which cause them to behave like males shortly
after laying eggs, when levels of progesterone are high, and to take the
female role in mating before laying eggs, when estrogen dominates.
Lizards who act out the courtship ritual have greater fecundity than
those kept in isolation, due to the increase in hormones that
accompanies the mounting. So, although the populations lack males, they
still require sexual behavioral stimuli for maximum reproductive
success.


Also:

Liara says that physical
contact is not always necessary for reproduction. Furthermore, many
parthenogenic species do not produce clones because they still use
meiosis to differentiate the genes of their offspring.

I don't
know why this is still a debate.



*edit: Yes, I'm aware that the example is using lizards. The asari could still do something similar.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 01 juin 2010 - 01:47 .


#240
Computer_God91

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Crimmsonwind wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

Parthenogenesis (from the Greek παρθένος parthenos, "virgin", + γένεσις genesis, "creation") is a form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male.

I thought the Asari required a partner to reproduce blending parts of their partner's DNA with their own through some tantric sexual melding process. Not quite the same as asexual reproduction where a partner is not needed.



To quote Nivenus...


Nivenus wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Nivenus
wrote...

For those who claim that asari aren't female because of their reproductive system. http://en.wikipedia....Parthenogenesis


That
deals with reproduction where the eggs need not to be fertilized. It is
different from what asari do, They NEED a partner.


A
difference that makes no difference in this particular case.

Wikipedia
wrote... (emphasis mine)

An interesting aspect to
reproduction in these asexual lizards is that mating behaviors are still
seen, although the populations are all female.
One female plays the
role played by the male in closely related species, and mounts the
female that is about to lay eggs. This behaviour is due to the hormonal
cycles of the females, which cause them to behave like males shortly
after laying eggs, when levels of progesterone are high, and to take the
female role in mating before laying eggs, when estrogen dominates.
Lizards who act out the courtship ritual have greater fecundity than
those kept in isolation, due to the increase in hormones that
accompanies the mounting. So, although the populations lack males, they
still require sexual behavioral stimuli for maximum reproductive
success.


Also:

Liara says that physical
contact is not always necessary for reproduction. Furthermore, many
parthenogenic species do not produce clones because they still use
meiosis to differentiate the genes of their offspring.

I don't
know why this is still a debate.



*edit: Yes, I'm aware that the example is using lizards. The asari could still do something similar.


here we go again

#241
Crimmsonwind

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pf17456 wrote...

Parthenogenesis (from the Greek παρθένος parthenos, "virgin", + γένεσις genesis, "creation") is a form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male.

I thought the Asari required a partner to reproduce blending parts of their partner's DNA with their own through some tantric sexual melding process. Not quite the same as asexual reproduction where a partner is not needed.

Also, while there seems to be a belief among the asari that nothing is gained if you don't mate with someone that isn't an asari, some asari do make comments on the fact that they don't think anything really comes out of it. They just need another set of genes to be randomized. Yes, there is a required partner, but the argument was that it doesn't have to be male for the asari to be considered female. The partner's only role is to give the asari a way to randomize the genes. The lizards mentioned in the other post don't physically need to swap juices, they just need to think that they do, so they go through the same actions, despite the fact that they don't have the right "equipment."

This is all major speculation because there are no set rules right now, because BioWare dropped the ball in this regard. It also does need some tweaking because yes, parthenogenesis is a form of asexual reproduction, although there is a partner involved. Technically, the partner isn't physically necessary in the case of the lizards, but it also is, because it stimulates the lizards into reproducing, despite the fact that both lizards are female. But asari do the whole mind-melding thing, which is more accurately defined as a modified method of parthogenesis. The asari bounces her extra set of genes off of her partner to randomize them, like the one lizard uses the partner to simulate a male.

Man, I put way too much thought into this. -.-

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 01 juin 2010 - 02:10 .


#242
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

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Crimmsonwind wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

It's hard to play a sport when the rules change every game, as is the case with ME1 and ME2.


What's that supposed to mean?

http://dictionary.die.net/retcon
http://en.wikipedia....i/Contradiction
http://www.merriam-w...ry/inconsistent

And last but not least:  "Not enough information"



(Sarcasm) That helped alot thanks.

You're welcome.
/facetious

Fixed. *Grammar N*zi salute*

http://www.defineonl...stand corrected
/facetious

#243
ranger614

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Jack > You.

#244
Computer_God91

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Crimmsonwind wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

Parthenogenesis (from the Greek παρθένος parthenos, "virgin", + γένεσις genesis, "creation") is a form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male.

I thought the Asari required a partner to reproduce blending parts of their partner's DNA with their own through some tantric sexual melding process. Not quite the same as asexual reproduction where a partner is not needed.

Also, while there seems to be a belief among the asari that nothing is gained if you don't mate with someone that isn't an asari, some asari do make comments on the fact that they don't think anything really comes out of it. They just need another set of genes to be randomized. Yes, there is a required partner, but the argument was that it doesn't have to be male for the asari to be considered female. The partner's only role is to give the asari a way to randomize the genes. The lizards mentioned in the other post don't physically need to swap juices, they just need to think that they do, so they go through the same actions, despite the fact that they don't have the right "equipment."

This is all major speculation because there are no set rules right now, because BioWare dropped the ball in this regard. It also does need some tweaking because yes, parthenogenesis is a form of asexual reproduction, although there is a partner involved. Technically, the partner isn't physically necessary in the case of the lizards, but it also is, because it stimulates the lizards into reproducing, despite the fact that both lizards are female. But asari do the whole mind-melding thing, which is more accurately defined as a modified method of parthogenesis. The asari bounces her extra set of genes off of her partner to randomize them, like the one lizard uses the partner to simulate a male.

Man, I put way too much thought into this. -.-


You have to remember that we developed this over the coarse of a few pages so its not like it was all spewed outward at once. you pretty much just summed up what they'd would've read had they read the whole topic.

#245
Nivenus

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When it comes to biology, female physiology is typically (though not always) the default. Males (of which I am one) were only introduced to add a bit of randomness to the genetic mix during reproduction though, as I've pointed out, they are far from the only example. Strictly speaking, females are present in all species that reproduce through gametes while males are only present in some. In embryonic development, embryos also typically appear female before they begin differentiation, which is one of the reasons why hermaphrodites in humans (such as cases of androgen deficiency syndrome) are almost always male in a genetic sense.

Of course, male in a "genetic" sense doesn't actually mean anything, because in several species there is no "genetic" sense of male vs. female; crocodiles, for instance, are differentiated by the temperature at which the eggs are incubated and there's no genetic difference between male and female crocodiles. The only real definition of male vs. female is that males create spermatozoa (which are essentially the cheap and expendable gametes) and females prodouce ova (which are expensive and long-lived). In species where there are only ova-producing individuals (such as that reproduce via parthenogenesis) the species is technically female, even if there are no males.

In this case we're talking about sex. As I said previously (and provided references for) sex and gender are not the same thing. Gender is a case of cultural and personal identity (for example, a man can identify as female and vice versa) but sex is physiological and (at this point in time) is irreversible and unchangeable in humans. Asari are all female. It is likely - though not definite - that at some point in their evolutionary history, some of the asari ancestral species had a male population. However, for whatever reason in the evolutionary past (of which I have completely unsubstantiated theories) they lost their male half and developed another method of sexual reproduction and differentiation (melding). Either that, or they never had males in the first place. But they are all sexually female.

As for gender, the asari have no gender. Such a concept does not exist in their minds because, as others have pointed out here (on both sides) there should logically be no female identity when there are no males to compare against. Of course, no gender is pretty much the same thing as having one gender, so the monogendered thing in this case is, in a sense, correct. However, it is wholly inaccurate to claim that asari are, in some way, completely devoid of female characteristics or that they are somehow hermaphrodites or truly and wholly asexual creatures.

Modifié par Nivenus, 01 juin 2010 - 03:13 .


#246
Crimmsonwind

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Nivenus...



1) I love you.



2) Are you a scientist of some sort?

#247
Nivenus

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1. I'm flattered.

2. No. In fact, my actual pedigree is extremely un-noteworthy (and no, I'm not just saying that). I just happen to have a good memory of detail, can find things quickly, and have done a lot of research on a huge variety of subjects for my own writing.

I am flattered, but I'm not an expert by any reasonable standard. So if anyone wants to fact check me, feel free to do so.

#248
Ablaz3d

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 I remember awhile back ( few months before ME1 release). We were having a discussion on this issue. A developer came in and told us they were pretty much women and they gave live birth so should be considered women. I'll try to find the thread.

#249
Ablaz3d

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http://meforums.biow...forum=104&sp=15


As explained by Chris L'Etoile 

"Without getting into too much detail, asari are considered female because:

1) They produce the equivalent of egg cells - cells that contain genetic material which can develop into a new independant organism. How they use them is a bit weird from the human point of view.

2) They possess the equivalent of a womb - a place where "activated" egg cells develop within them.

3) From the human point of view, they have a host of secondary sexual characteristics associated with femaleness (mammary glands, distribution of fats, higher pitched voice, etc.)

It's open to debate whether or not a species can truly be "female" (or "male") when they are monogendered. For the purposes of classification by multi-gendered species, who are the majority in the galaxy, the asari clearly fill a female niche.

The codex is not written from human or Spectre/galactic point of view (save one or two entries which deal with topics only the player knows about). It's supposed to be an objective encyclopedia, presenting topics in a neutral tone. The hope was that the background material Shepard would know growing up in the world would be presented tot the player in a way that allows you to make your own judgements on whether "X" is good or bad.

<-- Codex guy"

Modifié par Ablaz3d, 01 juin 2010 - 04:24 .


#250
Crimmsonwind

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Ablaz3d wrote...

http://meforums.biow...forum=104&sp=15
As explained by Chris L'Etoile

"Without getting into too much detail, asari are considered female because:

1) They produce the equivalent of egg cells - cells that contain genetic material which can develop into a new independant organism. How they use them is a bit weird from the human point of view.

2) They possess the equivalent of a womb - a place where "activated" egg cells develop within them.

3) From the human point of view, they have a host of secondary sexual characteristics associated with femaleness (mammary glands, distribution of fats, higher pitched voice, etc.)

It's open to debate whether or not a species can truly be "female" (or "male") when they are monogendered. For the purposes of classification by multi-gendered species, who are the majority in the galaxy, the asari clearly fill a female niche.

The codex is not written from human or Spectre/galactic point of view (save one or two entries which deal with topics only the player knows about). It's supposed to be an objective encyclopedia, presenting topics in a neutral tone. The hope was that the background material Shepard would know growing up in the world would be presented tot the player in a way that allows you to make your own judgements on whether "X" is good or bad.

<-- Codex guy"

Holy awesomeness. Well, there you go, the dude who wrote the codex said it himself. Good enough for me.