120 réponses à ce sujet

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I love how people say "ragh kill Loghain for what he did" yet they behead him publically in front of his daughter without a trial.

I do it because of a personal thing with traitors / deserters. If given the chance, would they not just do it again? (I realize there's a universe of possible situations, but zip it).

and for the record, Alistair is ok at tanking, but he pisses me off. so. f-in' much.

[Giggles_Manically]

yasuraka.hakkyou wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I love how people say "ragh kill Loghain for what he did" yet they behead him publically in front of his daughter without a trial.

I do it because of a personal thing with traitors / deserters. If given the chance, would they not just do it again? (I realize there's a universe of possible situations, but zip it).

and for the record, Alistair is ok at tanking, but he pisses me off. so. f-in' much.

Except that there is no conclusive evidence that Loghain either betrayed the King to gain power ( Which is OOC for him read the stolen throne) or knew he couldnt win and so retreated to save as many of his men as he could. The game makes it look like he betrayed the king but that is only form what jaded charachters think. Also the devs have never confirmed what exactly he did beyond that he did regret having to leave behind those people.

[Bartimaeus616]

Oh by the way, does anyone else think that Alistair looks soooo much better in heavy armour (heavy chainmail and the likes) rather than massive armour? I can't stand massive armour in general, but its just so ugly on Ali....

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

G_M: true, but he does desert Cailan, does he not? (this game is starting to rub off on me ). I've started the Stolen Throne at least, and it is OOC for Loghain to do this kinda stuff. However, he does say that he will do anything for Ferelden, and while it might not have actually worked out "as well" if Loghain didn't desert Cailan, it's still not honorable, trusting, or whichever adjective you'd like to use, haha. I can respect him saving his men, don't get me wrong, but surely Loghain could've tried harder to convince Cailan of a different plan, or w/e (from the viewpoint of a player warden).



I mostly prefer massive to heavy, myself. might as well equip the best at that point, and the "exaggeration" of the boob cups on heavy armor gets to me. I think he looks better in massive, but I still despise his guts.

[Astranagant]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

yasuraka.hakkyou wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I love how people say "ragh kill Loghain for what he did" yet they behead him publically in front of his daughter without a trial.

I do it because of a personal thing with traitors / deserters. If given the chance, would they not just do it again? (I realize there's a universe of possible situations, but zip it).

and for the record, Alistair is ok at tanking, but he pisses me off. so. f-in' much.

Except that there is no conclusive evidence that Loghain either betrayed the King to gain power ( Which is OOC for him read the stolen throne) or knew he couldnt win and so retreated to save as many of his men as he could. The game makes it look like he betrayed the king but that is only form what jaded charachters think. Also the devs have never confirmed what exactly he did beyond that he did regret having to leave behind those people.

If you bring Loghain when you do Return to Ostagar, you might change your mind. His comments about Cailan there are vitriolic at best, he even disapproves if you choose to give Cailan a respectable sendoff (as opposed to leaving his body where it was displayed by the Darkspawn as a trophy of the battle or just dumping it to rot, leaving Cailan impaled being the choice he most approves of.) It's pretty clear that if he didn't outright want to kill Cailan, he didn't have any second thoughts or regrets about letting Cailan die.

Modifié par Astranagant, 04 juin 2010 - 07:52 .

[janeym27]

Yeah. My take on it was that he didn't like the way Cailan did things (a disappointment after his father) and that he was the leader Fereldan needed. He wasn't, quite. His refusal to stand down even after the Landsmeet decides bodes ill for his good intentions. Ser Cauthrien and Anora both imply he's gone a bit mad on the power at that point. Have never taken him to Ostegar, but that reaction does seem in keeping with Loghain's view of Cailan's leadership at that point.



The problem is, while Loghain's whole trator/despot thing is OOC for him generally, it's a character change which kind of acts as a catelyst for the game's events. It's not a series of isolated OOC moments: Loghain is not himself anymore and his actions endanger them all. Alistair's reactions to Loghain at the Landsmeet, however, are just totally OOC for him with no real attempt to explain how he got there. Yes, I understand his anger and distrust, his feeling of betrayal if the warden considers letting Loghain join, but to leave? To be unable to be talked down, or made to see reason, or to get back to looking at the bigger picture? That is not Alistair. It's not even hardened Alistair. I mean, you can destroy Andraste's ashes and not lose him, for pete's sake! The whole thing felt cheap, when I played it, It put my warden in the position of having to act totally OOC herself: she wouldn't have let Loghain die if it could have been avoided, but neither did she want him at her back in battle.



I really like Alistair as a team member (he's my best tank, and I really like his banter), and as a character. The daddy issues thing: well, that's kind of par for the course in a lot of western fiction, and is certainly a norm in BW games (the cast of Mass Effect have more than enough to do the entire galaxy). Playing HN, actually gives you a character with daddy issues herself, so whatever. I think his conversations had more thought put into the writing of them than other team members, because he is a story character and some of that stuff was important (I think the whole 'Duncan loss' thing is meant to prepare us for his reaction to Loghain in the Landsmeet. It fails, of course, because being angry and acting like a dishonerable idiot do not necessarily go hand in hand). I really like Alistair EXCEPT for the whole Landsmeet thing. And IMO, that was a badly written, OOC moment which only serves to force the warden down a certain path. I only got to that confrontation on my 4th Landsmeet PT (I always just let Alistair duel him before. He ends it without conversation) When it played out with the joining option and Ali started acting like that, I just thought "Dammit, BW!"

[Giggles_Manically]

yasuraka.hakkyou wrote...

G_M: true, but he does desert Cailan, does he not? (this game is starting to rub off on me ). I've started the Stolen Throne at least, and it is OOC for Loghain to do this kinda stuff. However, he does say that he will do anything for Ferelden, and while it might not have actually worked out "as well" if Loghain didn't desert Cailan, it's still not honorable, trusting, or whichever adjective you'd like to use, haha. I can respect him saving his men, don't get me wrong, but surely Loghain could've tried harder to convince Cailan of a different plan, or w/e (from the viewpoint of a player warden).

I mostly prefer massive to heavy, myself. might as well equip the best at that point, and the "exaggeration" of the boob cups on heavy armor gets to me. I think he looks better in massive, but I still despise his guts.

Loghain did try and convince Cailan otherwise, he got overrulerd, rember. "My descion is final" and "YOu will remeber who is king", Calian was being stupid and not listening to his best general, while Loghain my regret doing it Calian was an idiot for pulling that manovouer. The safest thing to have done is raid and ambush the darkspawn until the Redcliffe army and the Orlesians could have gotten there. Then they would have won, but Calian ignored better judgement, and went seeking glory.

[janeym27]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain did try and convince Cailan otherwise, he got overrulerd, rember. "My descion is final" and "YOu will remeber who is king", Calian was being stupid and not listening to his best general, while Loghain my regret doing it Calian was an idiot for pulling that manovouer. The safest thing to have done is raid and ambush the darkspawn until the Redcliffe army and the Orlesians could have gotten there. Then they would have won, but Calian ignored better judgement, and went seeking glory.

It's still quite vindictive for him to not want to give Cailan a proper burial, but leave him impailed and humiliated. The Darkspawn meant that as insult against all Fereldan, not just Cailan himself.

Cailan also ignored Duncan's assertions that the archdemon was about. Loghain could have consulted the Grey Wardens, rather than framing them and leaving them to die. You know, what with them being the only ones who could stop the blight, and all.

[nos_astra]

janeym27 wrote...
Alistair's reactions to Loghain at the Landsmeet, however, are just totally OOC for him with no real attempt to explain how he got there. Yes, I understand his anger and distrust, his feeling of betrayal if the warden considers letting Loghain join, but to leave?

Why not leave? Alistair has an idealized view of the Grey Wardens that you just crushed. Oh yes, he knew somehow that GW can do pretty extreme things but it isn't something he really supports. You showed him (maybe once again) that his opinion is worth nothing, that loyalty is worth nothing, that someone can kill and murder to get what they want and it means nothing. This is not the way he would like the Wardens to be.

For him becoming a Warden was freedom, the best thing that happened to him in his life. And now you bestow this gift on Loghain ... as a punishment. An opportunity for Loghain to redeem his reputation after his many failures and miscalculations.

He genuinely believes that Loghain set up the Wardens and Cailan, he can't prove it but he is convinced that this is the truth. Your Warden can't prove the opposite either. 50:50 chance one of you is right, you'll never find out.

He also doesn't trust Loghain to suddenly support you. In this he is wrong as Loghain will indeed support you (and not stab you in the back) but you don't know this when you're making your decision. And of course there's still the chance Loghain may not have followed you for long if the end of the Blight didn't come surprisingly fast.

You are still waiting for support from the Orlesian Wardens. You don't know yet when the Archdemon will show itself. This could be weeks or months in the future for all you know.

So basically, I think leaving is perfectly in character for someone so furious. He may regret that later on (and this might be the point why you're saying it's OOC) but in this moment he only wants to get away from everything. A very emotional decision.

Of course, you would love to discuss this with him but I think it's a very human reaction and I've come to appreciate it.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2010 - 02:10 .

[Giggles_Manically]

My sister is getting closer to the Landsmeet, and I am worried about what will happen. She has so far tricked Anora that she will support her, and has all the Nobility on her side, but that is not my concern. She is in a romance with Alistair and will try to be queen, but she is much more merciful then most. I will report later what happens this should be interesting.

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

My sister is getting closer to the Landsmeet, and I am worried about what will happen. She has so far tricked Anora that she will support her, and has all the Nobility on her side, but that is not my concern. She is in a romance with Alistair and will try to be queen, but she is much more merciful then most. I will report later what happens this should be interesting.

XD that sounded like you're watching with a great, sadistic kind of older sibling amusement haha.

maybe I read it wrong, but hey...

[janeym27]

klarabella wrote...

janeym27 wrote...
Alistair's reactions to Loghain at the Landsmeet, however, are just totally OOC for him with no real attempt to explain how he got there. Yes, I understand his anger and distrust, his feeling of betrayal if the warden considers letting Loghain join, but to leave?

Why not leave? Alistair has an idealized view of the Grey Wardens that you just crushed. Oh yes, he knew somehow that GW can do pretty extreme things but it isn't something he really supports. You showed him (maybe once again) that his opinion is worth nothing, that loyalty is worth nothing, that someone can kill and murder to get what they want and it means nothing. This is not the way he would like the Wardens to be.

For him becoming a Warden was freedom, the best thing that happened to him in his life. And now you bestow this gift on Loghain ... as a punishment. An opportunity for Loghain to redeem his reputation after his many failures and miscalculations.

He genuinely believes that Loghain set up the Wardens and Cailan, he can't prove it but he is convinced that this is the truth. Your Warden can't prove the opposite either. 50:50 chance one of you is right, you'll never find out.

He also doesn't trust Loghain to suddenly support you. In this he is wrong as Loghain will indeed support you (and not stab you in the back) but you don't know this when you're making your decision. And of course there's still the chance Loghain may not have followed you for long if the end of the Blight didn't come surprisingly fast.

You are still waiting for support from the Orlesian Wardens. You don't know yet when the Archdemon will show itself. This could be weeks or months in the future for all you know.

So basically, I think leaving is perfectly in character for someone so furious. He may regret that later on (and this might be the point why you're saying it's OOC) but in this moment he only wants to get away from everything. A very emotional decision.

Of course, you would love to discuss this with him but I think it's a very human reaction and I've come to appreciate it.

Oh, I can see him wanting to leave. Yes. But for there to be no way to talk him round, I don't get it. He is very much 'eyes on the prize' right from the start. Even in a relationship with the warden, he won't approve of her talking about their feelings being more important than the blight. I would understand him leaving if he left to continue to fight the blight in some other way, but turning his back on the archdemon just doesn't seem like the right reaction.

I quite like the hardened king Alistair response, where he aknowledges that it is the warden who he can no longer follow, not so much give up on the fight itself. This leaving the fight is the part I have an issue with and the part that seems OOC. Grey Wardens do ''whatever it takes'' to stop the blight. As you say: being a Grey Warden means a lot to Alistair (and so yes, I agree that making Loghain one 'as punishment' is a bad call.), so I find it hard to acept that he could turn his back on his duty like that.

[Giggles_Manically]

There is a little older sibling evilness going on yasuraka.hakkyou . But mainly I am afraid that my 700 dollar laptop is going to get chucked out a window when this happens. It wil be interesting to see If her mercy or her love for Alistair overrides the other though.The only person she didnt spare was Caledrius. Should be tonight, or tommorow at the latest. She keeps complaning that she cant find her charachter in the list of like my 5 completed PT and 10 or so half done ones.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 04 juin 2010 - 02:40 .

[Bartimaeus616]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

 She keeps complaning that she cant find her charachter in the list of like my 5 completed PT and 10 or so half done ones.

haha I know how that looks, I keep having to delete characters because the xbox only lets you have a few......its agonising....

[janeym27]

Bartimaeus616 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

 She keeps complaning that she cant find her charachter in the list of like my 5 completed PT and 10 or so half done ones.

haha I know how that looks, I keep having to delete characters because the xbox only lets you have a few......its agonising....

Oh no. How many?

[Maria13]

Dileos wrote...

Patriciachr34 wrote...

Alistair sees Loghain as the man who murdered his mentor and massacred is friends. Then you, in all of your wisdom, embrace this monster and want him to be your "brother". Dude, where's your empathy? Are you truly that cold that you could betray your friend like that?

Being a Grey Warden isn't about being friends with everyone, its about doing what it takes to win. Loghain has commanded armies before, Alistair admited to puting the wrong shoe on the wrong foot some mornings.

Who's a better pick?

Alistair.  Because he's young and has already identified his own shortcomings and doesn't try to hide them.

[Bartimaeus616]

janeym27 wrote...

Bartimaeus616 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

 She keeps complaning that she cant find her charachter in the list of like my 5 completed PT and 10 or so half done ones.

haha I know how that looks, I keep having to delete characters because the xbox only lets you have a few......its agonising....

Oh no. How many?

I think it only lets you have about 10 or so at any one time....I've had to 'kill off' about 20 of my characters now lol

[Alex109222]

i wish he was in top gun

[Giggles_Manically]

Well it is over for my sister, and she is never going to play DA ever again as it seems.
She did very well, and won the Landsmeet, and had Anora's support, lied to her and had her whole plan laid out to be the queen. However it went quickly down hill near the end. Since she has watched Law and Order for 10 years she totally owned Loghain and then dueled him herself.

She won and was all like : , then however Alistair said "KILL HIM", making her go . Then Riordian, who my sister thought was smexy wanted him to be a warden and Alistair flipped out and my sister then went .  Luckily she hardened him, but with his whole rant she just lost it, since she will not kill a defenseless person in cold blood, when she relized Alistair would however she went all: . So in short Loghain lived, Alistair married Anora, and she called him a name later at Arl Eamon's Estate.

When she got told the news about what happens in the killing of the archdemon she practically lost it at everyone and got really cheesed. But not as much as when Morrigan offered the DR, to which she went:
and told Morrigan to GTFO. Got to the archdemon and did better than I did my first time, and sent Loghain off to his end, and all she said was "Wow he was so much cooler than anyone else in the party, wish I could have had him earlier." At the coronation she comforted Anora, and went to repair the grey wardens, and brought Zevran and Leliana along too. However she again was snotty to Alistair and wow was he rude to her.

After getting the credits she then got up and said she is not playing ever again, and that she hates Alistair, Morrigan, and wants BIoware to go die in a fire. So she really got cheesed and now I am trying to get her to start Awakening, so far she wont even talk to me about it though.

[Bartimaeus616]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

After getting the credits she then got up and said she is not playing ever again, and that she hates Alistair, Morrigan, and wants BIoware to go die in a fire. So she really got cheesed and now I am trying to get her to start Awakening, so far she wont even talk to me about it though.

ahahahhaha bless her

I've only had the heart to spare Loghain once...and then immediately felt dirty and turned off my xbox and reloaded and let Alistair kill him lol

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

haha, good story. evil sibling power! lol.

[Tindl]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well it is over for my sister, and she is never going to play DA ever again as it seems.

After getting the credits she then got up and said she is not playing ever again, and that she hates Alistair, Morrigan, and wants BIoware to go die in a fire. So she really got cheesed and now I am trying to get her to start Awakening, so far she wont even talk to me about it though.

heh, pretty much the reaction I had on my first run through. Poor lass, she has my sympathy

[BigBad]

I never blink at killing Loghain. Alistair's been a solid, completely trustworthy, entertaining companion who's more than proved his worth as a warrior, a knight, and a Warden while Loghain is a retard with a ridiculously overblown reputation that allows him to get away with truly spectacular lapses in judgment.



Virtually every character I have has used Alistair in the party for almost the whole game, even my S/S HN. He's funny, relatable, and very human. He has strengths and flaws that make me feel like I'm dealing with an actual person instead of a collection of pixels, scripts, and audio files. Is his reaction at the Landsmeet entirely rational? No. Is it justifiable? Absolutely, if you think of Alistair as a human with emotions and attachments to people and things outside of the party camp. The Grey Wardens who died at Ostagar are just NPCs to us, but they were -friends- to Alistair. Duncan was an obviously temporary mentor to us, but he was a vastly respected father-figure to Alistair.



I always sort of chuckle at people who play Couslands and then brag about how great it was to slaughter Howe and how awful he is, then turn around and ream Alistair for not wanting his own personal Howe-equivalent in the party.

[Asdara]

I love Alastair, but he does get a little on my nerves. He's kinda like a puppy. SO cute and sweet and you want them around you all the time... then they piddle on the floor and you hate them for five minutes till they give you the eyes and it's all love again.



Seriously though, if the PC got more options to vent about their backstory like the npcs to then it wouldn't be quite as grating to hear about Wynne's one regret and Alastair's Duncan grieving. The PC never gets any comfort but is expected to doll it out in mass quantities and that is the problem more than any one character's weak side - not being allowed to have your own.