58 réponses à ce sujet

[Johnathan]

Which is considered to be the "good" and which the "evil" Dwarf King? Harrowmont or Bhelen? 

[mousestalker]

yes

[thesuperdarkone]

Harrowmont is the "good" choice but gives the bad ending while bhelen is the "bad" choice but gives the good ending

[Mercuriol]

Better said there are no good nor bad choices. You have two shades of grey.

[Johnathan]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Harrowmont is the "good" choice but gives the bad ending while bhelen is the "bad" choice but gives the good ending

Good and Bad ending you mean after the Final Battle at the epilogue?

[faction699]

Without spoiling too much, Harrowmont turns out to be a huge isolationist **** whos willing to sacrifice anything and anyone. Bhelen turns out to be a dictator but a fair one.



You won't notice any of this until after the games already over though.

[Gilsa]

Johnathan wrote...

Which is considered to be the "good" and which the "evil" Dwarf King? Harrowmont or Bhelen? 

Characters such as Alistair and Wynne like Harrowmont while characters such as Zevran and Morrigan like Bhelen. You only see the consequences of the king choice in the epilogue cards, not during actual gameplay, so it's anyone's guess whether or not this actually carries over into the sequel or expansion. During Awakening, there was no profound effect on choosing either king other than mentioning them by name. If you started as an Orlesian, the dwarf king's name was not even mentioned.

[aaniadyen]

Bhelen is an **** who leads the Dwarves to prosperity. Harrowmont is an amazing guy who noone trusts, so his ruler ship eventually falls apart. Pick your poison. =P

[Giggles_Manically]

Bhelen is like Augustus in 14 CE who turned a dying Republic into a awsome Empire.

Harrowmont is like his opponenets who tried to keep the old style around.



Also Bhelen turns Orzamar into a monarchy more than the psuedo English/Indian/Medieval Model it is. Go study Political Science and you to can analyze a fantasy setting like me kiddies!

[Cyberfrog81]

Both of them will step over bodies to get what they want. It is just more in your face with Bhelen. So it is not a black and white / good vs evil situation..

[Xandurpein]

Harrowmont is more like a southern gentleman from the nineteenth century. All hung up on honor and chivalry, as long as you don't happen to be an outcast of course. And just like those southern gentlemen history will eventually steam roll all over him. I leave it to you to decide if that makes him good or bad.



Bhelen has a much more progressive agenda and tries to make dwarven society less stratified. On the other hand he uses any underhanded trick in the book to achieve his goal.

[Giggles_Manically]

Most of histories greatest leaders that get admired today acted little better than Bhelen, some of them worse in fact

[Costin_Razvan]

 

some of them worse in fact

You mean most, not some. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Definately. I am still surprised that Bhelen waited until several assassination attempts for him to disolve the Assembly. Others would have done it almost immediately.

[Fizzeler]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Harrowmont is the "good" choice but gives the bad ending while bhelen is the "bad" choice but gives the good ending

Unless you are Dwarf Noble

I agree with this though even though I almost always support Bhelen in the end because he progresses Orzammar and reclaims some of the lost thiags

[CalJones]

Bhelen is the obvious pick for a commoner or casteless as he offers a better lot for these people. Harrowmont is a nice guy who is mired in tradition and doesn't make an effective leader, rather like Arl Eamon. I picked him first time around (playing as a HN with no preconceptions about the dwarvern rulers) but Bhelen every time after that.

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...

Bhelen is the obvious pick for a commoner or casteless as he offers a better lot for these people. Harrowmont is a nice guy who is mired in tradition and doesn't make an effective leader, rather like Arl Eamon. I picked him first time around (playing as a HN with no preconceptions about the dwarvern rulers) but Bhelen every time after that.

Are you claiming Arl Eamon isn't an effective leader or just that he is mired in tradition? Clearly Logain thought Eamon was too dangerous to have around when his plans were being put into motion (although he had to change them with Cailan's death).

[Xandurpein]

Sarah1281 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Bhelen is the obvious pick for a commoner or casteless as he offers a better lot for these people. Harrowmont is a nice guy who is mired in tradition and doesn't make an effective leader, rather like Arl Eamon. I picked him first time around (playing as a HN with no preconceptions about the dwarvern rulers) but Bhelen every time after that.

Are you claiming Arl Eamon isn't an effective leader or just that he is mired in tradition? Clearly Logain thought Eamon was too dangerous to have around when his plans were being put into motion (although he had to change them with Cailan's death).

Harrowmont and Arl Eamon are really quite similiar. Their main failings are that they are too stuck in preserving traditions, which leads to a stratified society without any progress.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Definately. I am still surprised that Bhelen waited until several assassination attempts for him to disolve the Assembly. Others would have done it almost immediately.

That wouldn´t be wise. Dissolving it without reason would have caused severe oppositionby the castes.

[Asdara]

Dwarven politics work a little differently than the topsider politics. There's a lot more acceptance of shady-backdealing - provided you can demonstrate you have the favor of the Ancestors while engaging in those practices. It probably stems from the extreme overpopulation of the small area they have left even with their dwindling numbers. They are in a constant "do what it takes" mode which produces a rather a-moral environment. Above ground there's a lot more room for moral judgements and consequently the more balanced leaders maintain their effectiveness.



Harrowmont is the "right" choice for a topsider GW (with the possible exception of City Elf) based on his character and good faith efforts to rule - but Bhelen is the "right" choice for his own people due to his high level of "getting it done" with whatever means are deemed needed - of course a Dwarven Noble would be hard-put to see that quality in him given the backstory, so really I could only see fit to put Bhelen on the thrown with a Dwarf Commoner GW myself personally - or a morally challenged GW from any other quarter I suppose, which I haven't played as yet.

[Xandurpein]

Asdara wrote...

Harrowmont is the "right" choice for a topsider GW (with the possible exception of City Elf) based on his character and good faith efforts to rule.

I can see a politically astute "top sider"  human noble, choosing Bhelen on the grounds that he will strengthen dwarven society. The dwarves are no threat to the surface realms, but an invaluable shield to Ferelden from the darkspawn. Keeping dwarven society strong and progressive is therefore in the human rulers best interest.

[Asdara]

Xandurpein wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Harrowmont is the "right" choice for a topsider GW (with the possible exception of City Elf) based on his character and good faith efforts to rule.

I can see a politically astute "top sider"  human noble, choosing Bhelen on the grounds that he will strengthen dwarven society. The dwarves are no threat to the surface realms, but an invaluable shield to Ferelden from the darkspawn. Keeping dwarven society strong and progressive is therefore in the human rulers best interest.

I would consider taking into account only the people of the surface (your own people particularly) as important enough to protect as "a-moral" - which I addressed later on.

[Xandurpein]

Asdara wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Harrowmont is the "right" choice for a topsider GW (with the possible exception of City Elf) based on his character and good faith efforts to rule.

I can see a politically astute "top sider"  human noble, choosing Bhelen on the grounds that he will strengthen dwarven society. The dwarves are no threat to the surface realms, but an invaluable shield to Ferelden from the darkspawn. Keeping dwarven society strong and progressive is therefore in the human rulers best interest.

I would consider taking into account only the people of the surface (your own people particularly) as important enough to protect as "a-moral" - which I addressed later on.

If it is "right" for his own people, how can it be a-moral for an outsider? If the GW is astute enough to realize that it is in the best interest for the dwarves themselves and their society to have Bhelen as leader, surely the a-moral choice is to choose Harrwmont?

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 juin 2010 - 05:28 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

Ingame, for a good character, Belen's appeal is in his more progressive attitude towards the castless - a good character would probably view the lot of the castless as a grieveous injustice, and would be tempted to pick the king that would help the castless achieve better opportunities.



On the other hand, Belen is a ruthless, conniving man who seems to shy away from no means that would gain him the throne, while Harrowmont seems more honorable and more likeable. But with Harromont's old fashioned ideas and unquestioning support of the caste system, and his seeming unwillingness to act without a consensus, even at a time of turmoil and war, he doesn't seem like the ideal choise for a king either.



This is a genuine dillemma of chosing the lesser of two evils; neither choise is unambiguously "good" or "evil". That's one of the things that makes the game interesting - just like real life, it's got shades of gray in it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...
This is a genuine dillemma of chosing the lesser of two evils; neither choise is unambiguously "good" or "evil". That's one of the things that makes the game interesting - just like real life, it's got shades of gray in it.

Morality wise.

Efficiency wise, it's clear Bhelen is a great ruler and Harrowmont is a failure.