58 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

Ingame, for a good character, Belen's appeal is in his more progressive attitude towards the castless - a good character would probably view the lot of the castless as a grieveous injustice, and would be tempted to pick the king that would help the castless achieve better opportunities.

On the other hand, Belen is a ruthless, conniving man who seems to shy away from no means that would gain him the throne, while Harrowmont seems more honorable and more likeable. But with Harromont's old fashioned ideas and unquestioning support of the caste system, and his seeming unwillingness to act without a consensus, even at a time of turmoil and war, he doesn't seem like the ideal choise for a king either.

This is a genuine dillemma of chosing the lesser of two evils; neither choise is unambiguously "good" or "evil". That's one of the things that makes the game interesting - just like real life, it's got shades of gray in it.

Indeed. Is "good" the same as as honorable intent, even if it is born in a narrow mind. I still think Harrowmont is like a southern gentleman from the nineteenth century, very chivalrous, but if you come from the wrong part of society it doesn't look as bright.

[Giggles_Manically]

Outside of my Dwarf Nobles, I always end up picking Bhelen

[DWSmiley]

My current character is the first one who faced no dilemma. He's an (ig)noble human supremacist who wants the dwarven armies now but prefers to see the dwarves sink into isolation and oblivion after that. And although Harrowmount makes a weak ruler, he reputedly is a good general. Double-crossing and killing that insulting Vartag was icing on the cake. Next up are those uppity Dalish. Cue the werewolves!

[Asdara]

I think it is very hard for the warden to discern that Bhelen is effective if they don't know about the epilog. It isn't as if he does anything that stands out as particularly effective in the interaction you have with him. He uses you as an errand boy/girl the same as Harrowmont does - and as a result does nothing but sit back and wait for the good news - again, just like Harrowmont. So, assuming we aren't meta-gaming here, how would the warden figure out that Bhelen is the more effective of the two leaders exactly? If you can support this, I am willing to change my tune.

On the other hand - if you wander around clicking things enough you find the letter from the King to Harrowmont basically admitting that Bhelen murdered his own brothers and might kill him next if he reveals the scandal.  Which, in the eyes of an unknowing observer, seems to indicate that he would not be a person to be trusted either in any dealings or in government.  No?

Modifié par Asdara, 01 juin 2010 - 09:17 .

[Sarah1281]

On the other hand - if you wander around clicking things enough you find the letter from the King to Harrowmont basically admitting that Bhelen murdered his own brothers and might kill him next if he reveals the scandal. Which, in the eyes of an unknowing observer, seems to indicate that he would not be a person to be trusted either in any dealings or in government. No?

That's not really what the letter says.

From the wiki...



My Lord Harrowmont, My guilt weighs heavily on me, and I know now that I was a fool. Only a fool would cut out his own heart and burn it for the sake of appearances. I allowed the Assembly to send my child to exile and death because I feared an inquiry into Trian's murder would taint our house with scandal. You have been my rock and my shield these long months and for that I thank you. But I must ask for one thing more. I wish to discover if my child survived. Even the smallest trace will set my mind at ease. Send your men, your scouts, anyone who will go!



Bhelen thinks I am mad. He says that if word spreads of my wish, our House will be undone. He doesn't know that Aeducan is already lost. I destroyed us when I sacrificed what was most precious. Please, Pyral, help me. I come to you not as a king, but as a father.

This only implies that Endrin did not believe that the DN was guilty. Since there are rumors that Bhelen set the whole thing up you can infer that that means Bhelen was involved, especially as Bhelen would almost have to be involved for the scandal to be bigger than just blaming the DN but that's really thinking a lot on the subject. What the letter shows on the Surface is how much trust Endrin had in Harrowmont and supports Harrowmont's claim that he is Endrins chosen heir, especially since he claims House Aeducan is lost.



Even if that weren't the case, though, Bhelen's objection stems from the fact that if he tried to bring the DN back then that would just invite the scandal the DN was exiled in the first place to avoid and it's been months so odds are that it's useless to go looking for him. Endrin doesn't care, though, as he already thinks they're too far gone. Nothing about that hints that Endrin fears for his life.

[Eudaemonium]

I think you can discern Bhelen's attitude to the casteless without meta-gaming, largely through his impending wedding to Rica which both criers talk about. They both basically say the same thing but present it as positive or negative depending on the crier. As to Bhelen's ultimate efficiency, its hard to tell without meta-gaming, but I think a character can infer from what people say about the candidiates. It is a tricky one though. Orzammar is far less clear-cut 'good-bad' than the other quest-lines.

[Sarah1281]

Eudaemonium wrote...

I think you can discern Bhelen's attitude to the casteless without meta-gaming, largely through his impending wedding to Rica which both criers talk about. They both basically say the same thing but present it as positive or negative depending on the crier. As to Bhelen's ultimate efficiency, its hard to tell without meta-gaming, but I think a character can infer from what people say about the candidiates. It is a tricky one though. Orzammar is far less clear-cut 'good-bad' than the other quest-lines.

...Rica and Bhelen are not getting married. If you play as a DC and actually get to talk to her she makes this quite clear even post-coronation "I'm his concubine, not his wife." He may love her or he may not but the only time you hear anything of the sort is when Harrowont's criers (who also accuse you of worshipping demons) try to scandalize people with this. I'm not sure Bhelen's criers even mention Rica but certainly don't talk about a wedding. If Bhelen were to decide to get married to her (which is news to Rica) why would he announce it when doing so would cost him votes and may mean Harrowmont became King? 

Yes, you could say that Bhelen's use of a casteless noble hunter like Rica and the groundbreaking fact he treats her like a person unlike pretty much everyone else does means that he isn't as against them as a traditionlist like Harrowmont but...there's no wedding. She just had his son.

[old book]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Eudaemonium wrote...

I think you can discern Bhelen's attitude to the casteless without meta-gaming, largely through his impending wedding to Rica which both criers talk about. They both basically say the same thing but present it as positive or negative depending on the crier. As to Bhelen's ultimate efficiency, its hard to tell without meta-gaming, but I think a character can infer from what people say about the candidiates. It is a tricky one though. Orzammar is far less clear-cut 'good-bad' than the other quest-lines.

...Rica and Bhelen are not getting married. If you play as a DC and actually get to talk to her she makes this quite clear even post-coronation "I'm his concubine, not his wife." He may love her or he may not but the only time you hear anything of the sort is when Harrowont's criers (who also accuse you of worshipping demons) try to scandalize people with this. I'm not sure Bhelen's criers even mention Rica but certainly don't talk about a wedding. If Bhelen were to decide to get married to her (which is news to Rica) why would he announce it when doing so would cost him votes and may mean Harrowmont became King? 

Yes, you could say that Bhelen's use of a casteless noble hunter like Rica and the groundbreaking fact he treats her like a person unlike pretty much everyone else does means that he isn't as against them as a traditionlist like Harrowmont but...there's no wedding. She just had his son.

True (iirc). Still, when my characters still read Rica's letter to Bhelen, talk to the merchants, and talk to others around Orzamar, they get a pretty clear idea that Bhelen is pro trade with the surface and wants to weaken the Caste system. Some criticize him for it, some praise him, but it's clear. When playing a character who recognizes just how much harm the Caste system is causing, it's no problem to justify siding with Bhelen.

That said, his second in command is a complete ***, and many characters will side against Bhelen just because anyone who'd employ that jerk must be a jerk himself.

[Asdara]

Sarah1281 wrote...

On the other hand - if you wander around clicking things enough you find the letter from the King to Harrowmont basically admitting that Bhelen murdered his own brothers and might kill him next if he reveals the scandal. Which, in the eyes of an unknowing observer, seems to indicate that he would not be a person to be trusted either in any dealings or in government. No?

That's not really what the letter says.

From the wiki...

My Lord Harrowmont, My guilt weighs heavily on me, and I know now that I was a fool. Only a fool would cut out his own heart and burn it for the sake of appearances. I allowed the Assembly to send my child to exile and death because I feared an inquiry into Trian's murder would taint our house with scandal. You have been my rock and my shield these long months and for that I thank you. But I must ask for one thing more. I wish to discover if my child survived. Even the smallest trace will set my mind at ease. Send your men, your scouts, anyone who will go!

Bhelen thinks I am mad. He says that if word spreads of my wish, our House will be undone. He doesn't know that Aeducan is already lost. I destroyed us when I sacrificed what was most precious. Please, Pyral, help me. I come to you not as a king, but as a father.

This only implies that Endrin did not believe that the DN was guilty. Since there are rumors that Bhelen set the whole thing up you can infer that that means Bhelen was involved, especially as Bhelen would almost have to be involved for the scandal to be bigger than just blaming the DN but that's really thinking a lot on the subject. What the letter shows on the Surface is how much trust Endrin had in Harrowmont and supports Harrowmont's claim that he is Endrins chosen heir, especially since he claims House Aeducan is lost.

Even if that weren't the case, though, Bhelen's objection stems from the fact that if he tried to bring the DN back then that would just invite the scandal the DN was exiled in the first place to avoid and it's been months so odds are that it's useless to go looking for him. Endrin doesn't care, though, as he already thinks they're too far gone. Nothing about that hints that Endrin fears for his life.

You are correct, I oversimplified (also I just got the letter again myself today which refreshed my memory).

I am far from saying Bhelen is completely without some good ideas - and it is clear he wants to eventually dismantle the caste system.  Yet, he also mentions to you when discussing going into the Deep Roads, that he was still considered a child two years previous to your meeting him.  So he's young and got a bit of a reformist bent to him, that does not - to me - make up for the means he employs to get what he wants.  I rather think of him as an impatient toddler who knows if he has a tantrum he will get his way, except replace tantrum with assassinate.

[Xandurpein]

Being honorable and having a strong sense of tradition doesn't necessarily add up to being the best leader of a country. At least not in the historical time the game tries to emulate.

[Costin_Razvan]

Xandurpein wrote...

Being honorable and having a strong sense of tradition doesn't necessarily add up to being the best leader of a country. At least not in the historical time the game tries to emulate.

Since when has it EVER added up to being a good leader?

[DWSmiley]

If you have Zev with you when you first enter Orzammar, he picks up right away on Harrowmount being weak, when he sees the mighty Lord run like a little girl from the violent altercation, abandoning the henchman.

[RavenousBear]

DWSmiley wrote...

If you have Zev with you when you first enter Orzammar, he picks up right away on Harrowmount being weak, when he sees the mighty Lord run like a little girl from the violent altercation, abandoning the henchman.

And yet when that dwarf (presumably from the warrior caste) decides to hack the guard for trying to separate the two nobles, what was Bhelen doing? As the prince and heir to the dwarven throne, he should have full control over his men and not allow any of them to go beserk over such minor comments like a five year old child.

If I were Bhelen, I would have that dwarf warrior executed to show he is the one in charge. As a leader, you need to have control over your men at all times, especially in a culture like the dwarves have.

[DWSmiley]

Caak7i wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

If you have Zev with you when you first enter Orzammar, he picks up right away on Harrowmount being weak, when he sees the mighty Lord run like a little girl from the violent altercation, abandoning the henchman.

And yet when that dwarf (presumably from the warrior caste) decides to hack the guard for trying to separate the two nobles, what was Bhelen doing? As the prince and heir to the dwarven throne, he should have full control over his men and not allow any of them to go beserk over such minor comments like a five year old child.

If I were Bhelen, I would have that dwarf warrior executed to show he is the one in charge. As a leader, you need to have control over your men at all times, especially in a culture like the dwarves have.

Except the city guard takes no action against the murderer so it could be that Bhelen knew there would be no repercussions.  Instilling some fear in the opposition suits his autocratic nature, particularly if there is no price to pay.

[Murphys_Law]

I find it amusing how people just assume Bhelen is the better choice just because the ending sounds better. Just because Harrowmont's rule is short lived, doesn't mean it was a failure. The ending even states that some of his policies stick and are well received. But my real point is that new king may end up be being better than either choice for the dwarven people and ending the royal blood line of rule might allow the society to be more accepting of the "lesser" castes.

[Murphys_Law]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Most of histories greatest leaders that get admired today acted little better than Bhelen, some of them worse in fact

I want names.  I also think you are confusing the word "admired" with "respected".  The greatest leaders are both respected and admired.

[Xandurpein]

Murphys_Law wrote...

I find it amusing how people just assume Bhelen is the better choice just because the ending sounds better. Just because Harrowmont's rule is short lived, doesn't mean it was a failure. The ending even states that some of his policies stick and are well received. But my real point is that new king may end up be being better than either choice for the dwarven people and ending the royal blood line of rule might allow the society to be more accepting of the "lesser" castes.

So the case for choosing Harrowmont is that whoever succedes him can potentially be better than he is? Excuse me if I find that to be a rather flimsy argument, unless you refer to a dwarven noble Warden, but then you should say so.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 02 juin 2010 - 06:22 .

[Xandurpein]

Murphys_Law wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Most of histories greatest leaders that get admired today acted little better than Bhelen, some of them worse in fact

I want names.  I also think you are confusing the word "admired" with "respected".  The greatest leaders are both respected and admired.

If you by admired mean a leader whose political actions would be deemed admirable by modern ethical standards I doubt you'll find a single leader of the middle ages that can be deemed admirable at all. Kings, like everyone else, are childs of their times.

The point is that someone like Harrowmont can seem a "good" choice because he is honorable, but only if you accept the rather narrow confines of his sense of honor. Such as that an honourable King can stoutly resist changes in dwarven society that would make life better for the outcasts.

It is possible for men to be guided by a deeply and sincerely felt code of honor, and at the same time that halt progress and mire their society in practices seem deeply unjust to us today.

Just as some of the great political reformations in history, that has led to progress to the benefit of humanity, have been led by people of highly dubious moral character.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 02 juin 2010 - 06:34 .

[Dileos]

Bhelen wants to drag Orzammar into the modern times and grant more rights to the casteless, he (usually anyway, the slides vary from time to time) ends up reclaiming lost taigs and pretty much takes the dwarves into a golden age at the expense of a fair dictatorship. Which turns out being more like an Absolute Monarchy.

Harrowmont is either found dead, or he shuts the dwarves off from the rest of the world. If you side with him as a Dwarf Noble, you may be named his succesor, but its rare. And besides, don't you want your family name to live on?


And while Bhelen DID kill his brothers, those ARE the ways of dwarven politics.

Modifié par Dileos, 02 juin 2010 - 06:52 .

[RavenousBear]

DWSmiley wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

If you have Zev with you when you first enter Orzammar, he picks up right away on Harrowmount being weak, when he sees the mighty Lord run like a little girl from the violent altercation, abandoning the henchman.

And yet when that dwarf (presumably from the warrior caste) decides to hack the guard for trying to separate the two nobles, what was Bhelen doing? As the prince and heir to the dwarven throne, he should have full control over his men and not allow any of them to go beserk over such minor comments like a five year old child.

If I were Bhelen, I would have that dwarf warrior executed to show he is the one in charge. As a leader, you need to have control over your men at all times, especially in a culture like the dwarves have.

Except the city guard takes no action against the murderer so it could be that Bhelen knew there would be no repercussions.  Instilling some fear in the opposition suits his autocratic nature, particularly if there is no price to pay.

I assume with no current King, the Aeducan house itself would be in control of Orzammar until a new king is elected since the family has held the throne for over 400 years. If that is the case, then Bhelen has no reason to fear any legal troubles however even in dwarven society that sort of action is not acceptable as commoners and the Captain of the guard comment the warrior should be thrown into the Legion. If there was a King, that dwarf would be punished. I only see that action hurt his image as a future king who disrespects dwarven traditions which include honor.

Bhelen is seen as the "strong" king; I thought strong kings reign in their soldiers and make them obey and stay silent unless ordered by the King. In my opinion, it makes Bhelen look like the ringleader of thugs who let their emotions get the best of them.

[Xandurpein]

Caak7i wrote...

In my opinion, it makes Bhelen look like the ringleader of thugs who let their emotions get the best of them.

That is in fact a pretty good description of just about any historical medieval king you can name, if you cchoose to apply contemporary morals. Just saying...

[RavenousBear]

Xandurpein wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

In my opinion, it makes Bhelen look like the ringleader of thugs who let their emotions get the best of them.

That is in fact a pretty good description of just about any historical medieval king you can name, if you cchoose to apply contemporary morals. Just saying...

In a society where the "appearance" of honor was very important for nobles (but allowed assassinations in the background), having your men kill a guard (who was just doing his duty) infront of a crowd would not gain favor for the nobles. Of course Bhelen no longer has to worry about gaining more nobles on his side if the Warden joins his side, but Bhelen would not have known about the Warden when the altercation occured. Bhelen hid his plans and his feelings for years, why release all the venom at once when it could hurt your chances of success?

[DWSmiley]

Bhelen isn't releasing all of his venom; he's just tolerating a murder by one of his henchman. I don't see it hurting his chances as the nobles seem to be completely polarized by this point while the merchants range between "I'm for Bhelen because he'll open up trade" and "I'm just keeping my head down until this is all over."



That said, Bhelen is not completely the cool, manipulating schemer. He has a violent streak, as you learn at the end when he attempts an armed coup if the Warden backs Harrowmount.

[Demx]

Harrowmont won't act unless he gets full approval from the Assembly

He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.



Bhelen wants to change how the caste system works.

It is said that Bhelen killed his brothers and used blackmail at the proving.



Your pick for which ever crooked politician you want in office.

[Sarah1281]

He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.



And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.