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#51
RavenousBear

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DWSmiley wrote...

Bhelen isn't releasing all of his venom; he's just tolerating a murder by one of his henchman. I don't see it hurting his chances as the nobles seem to be completely polarized by this point while the merchants range between "I'm for Bhelen because he'll open up trade" and "I'm just keeping my head down until this is all over."

That said, Bhelen is not completely the cool, manipulating schemer. He has a violent streak, as you learn at the end when he attempts an armed coup if the Warden backs Harrowmount.


It did not seem to help his chances either if he was trying to send a message as no pro-bhelen supporters I talked to mention the incident whatsoever. Oh well, no one cares about the guard anyway.

As for the coup, it was pathetic. It looked like a death by cop scenario as Bhelen despised Harrowmont so much he rather die than see him become King. In the DN origin, I saw Bhelen show bitterness towards Harrowmont.

#52
Demx

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Sarah1281 wrote...

He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.

And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.


All you have to do is show the piece of paper, there really isn't any convincing you need to do. They recognize the signatures on the paper. I do want to know how you can confirm that what is written on the paper is false. Otherwise it's all hearsay.

#53
RavenousBear

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Siradix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.

And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.


All you have to do is show the piece of paper, there really isn't any convincing you need to do. They recognize the signatures on the paper. I do want to know how you can confirm that what is written on the paper is false. Otherwise it's all hearsay.


Take the papers to the Shaperate; he will confirm they were forged and demands where the Warden got the papers.

#54
Sarah1281

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Siradix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...


He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.

And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.


All you have to do is show the piece of paper, there really isn't any convincing you need to do. They recognize the signatures on the paper. I do want to know how you can confirm that what is written on the paper is false. Otherwise it's all hearsay.

If you take the 'Harrowmont is cheating you' documents to the Shaper he says that deals were made with both Houses but Vartag altered the terms of the deal so that it looked like the same land was being given and it wasn't. Since the deal was made and approved by him he would know and has records. That Helmi didn't authenticate it was because he was just so disgusted and disillusioned at this point he didn't care. That Lord Dace didn't was likely because he expected his daughter to before sending you to the Deep Roads after him. That Lady Dace didn't...well, that was really stupid of her.

You can't get the proof of Harrowmont's ties to the carta or Bhelen ordering Trian's death authenticated, of course, but planting evidence pretty much automatically implies that it isn't true and why would the carta just happen to have fabricated proof that Bhelen committed fratricide lying about? They couldn't even have planted it as Jarvia clearly isn't pro-Harrowmont and until she's dead you can't really sneak documents into her personal 'important documents' chest.

It did not seem to help his chances either if he was trying to send a message as no pro-bhelen supporters I talked to mention the incident whatsoever. Oh well, no one cares about the guard anyway.

I think it comes down to that. The guard is pretty low in the warrior caste or he'd be off winning glory in the Deep Roads or in the Provings not policing the streets so no one really cares that he died. Bhelen's supporter, on the other hand, was probably more high-profile since he was standing right next to the prince.

#55
Sarah1281

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Caak7i wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...


He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.

And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.


All you have to do is show the piece of paper, there really isn't any convincing you need to do. They recognize the signatures on the paper. I do want to know how you can confirm that what is written on the paper is false. Otherwise it's all hearsay.


Take the papers to the Shaperate; he will confirm they were forged and demands where the Warden got the papers.

And if you tattle on Vartag there's an investigation into his House which means he's really screwed over so even if you do decide to make Bhelen King you can still screw Vartag over. Everybody wins! Posted Image

#56
RavenousBear

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...


He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.

And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.


All you have to do is show the piece of paper, there really isn't any convincing you need to do. They recognize the signatures on the paper. I do want to know how you can confirm that what is written on the paper is false. Otherwise it's all hearsay.


Take the papers to the Shaperate; he will confirm they were forged and demands where the Warden got the papers.

And if you tattle on Vartag there's an investigation into his House which means he's really screwed over so even if you do decide to make Bhelen King you can still screw Vartag over. Everybody wins! Posted Image


Nah, Bhelen would pardon him for his loyalty to House Aeducan. Unless the Shaperate had its own army, they would stand down. The only way you can screw Vartag is to crown Harrowmont and hack Vartag in the Royal Palace.

#57
Sarah1281

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Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...



He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.

And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.


All you have to do is show the piece of paper, there really isn't any convincing you need to do. They recognize the signatures on the paper. I do want to know how you can confirm that what is written on the paper is false. Otherwise it's all hearsay.


Take the papers to the Shaperate; he will confirm they were forged and demands where the Warden got the papers.

And if you tattle on Vartag there's an investigation into his House which means he's really screwed over so even if you do decide to make Bhelen King you can still screw Vartag over. Everybody wins! Posted Image


Nah, Bhelen would pardon him for his loyalty to House Aeducan. Unless the Shaperate had its own army, they would stand down. The only way you can screw Vartag is to crown Harrowmont and hack Vartag in the Royal Palace.

Even if he were pardoned it would still humiliate and disgrace House Gavorn if everyone knows they were caught forging promissory notes. The other nobles might all be willing to do the same thing but since they didn't get caught it's not relevant. The appearance of honor is paramount, after all, and there's no honor in that. And is the scandal was bad enough Bhelen might just decide to distance himself and try to make it appear that Vartag did on his own initiative so he's connected to the scandal.

#58
RavenousBear

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...



He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.

And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.


All you have to do is show the piece of paper, there really isn't any convincing you need to do. They recognize the signatures on the paper. I do want to know how you can confirm that what is written on the paper is false. Otherwise it's all hearsay.


Take the papers to the Shaperate; he will confirm they were forged and demands where the Warden got the papers.

And if you tattle on Vartag there's an investigation into his House which means he's really screwed over so even if you do decide to make Bhelen King you can still screw Vartag over. Everybody wins! Posted Image


Nah, Bhelen would pardon him for his loyalty to House Aeducan. Unless the Shaperate had its own army, they would stand down. The only way you can screw Vartag is to crown Harrowmont and hack Vartag in the Royal Palace.

Even if he were pardoned it would still humiliate and disgrace House Gavorn if everyone knows they were caught forging promissory notes. The other nobles might all be willing to do the same thing but since they didn't get caught it's not relevant. The appearance of honor is paramount, after all, and there's no honor in that. And is the scandal was bad enough Bhelen might just decide to distance himself and try to make it appear that Vartag did on his own initiative so he's connected to the scandal.


I thought the Gavorns were a newly formed house with little honor to begin with. With the dwarven society being so traditional, it would be like the "Old" money/ "New" Money scenario. Anyways, this is getting off-topic and derailing the thread, so I am going to stop.

#59
Sarah1281

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Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...




He also has a connection to a scandal where it is said that he sold the same piece of land to two different people.

That (false) story only spreads if you yourself convince Dace and Helmi of it. Or another (false) scandal can occur if you betray Harrowmont after winning the Proving and plant evidence of Harrowmont's cousin's involvement with the carta. There don't actually appear to be any legimate scandals for you to expose (either he doesn't have them or can clean them up effectively) so Bhelen's side has to invent them.

And you can prove Bhelen killed his brothers if you betray Bhelen and find actual non-planted letters instructing the carta to murder Trian and thus framing the DN. He certainly can be shown to be far more corrupt than Harrowmont does although whether Harrowmont is actually honorable or just has years more experience cleaning up his image is up for debate.


All you have to do is show the piece of paper, there really isn't any convincing you need to do. They recognize the signatures on the paper. I do want to know how you can confirm that what is written on the paper is false. Otherwise it's all hearsay.


Take the papers to the Shaperate; he will confirm they were forged and demands where the Warden got the papers.

And if you tattle on Vartag there's an investigation into his House which means he's really screwed over so even if you do decide to make Bhelen King you can still screw Vartag over. Everybody wins! Posted Image


Nah, Bhelen would pardon him for his loyalty to House Aeducan. Unless the Shaperate had its own army, they would stand down. The only way you can screw Vartag is to crown Harrowmont and hack Vartag in the Royal Palace.

Even if he were pardoned it would still humiliate and disgrace House Gavorn if everyone knows they were caught forging promissory notes. The other nobles might all be willing to do the same thing but since they didn't get caught it's not relevant. The appearance of honor is paramount, after all, and there's no honor in that. And is the scandal was bad enough Bhelen might just decide to distance himself and try to make it appear that Vartag did on his own initiative so he's connected to the scandal.


I thought the Gavorns were a newly formed house with little honor to begin with. With the dwarven society being so traditional, it would be like the "Old" money/ "New" Money scenario. Anyways, this is getting off-topic and derailing the thread, so I am going to stop.

They can't be that new as Houses are only founded by Paragons and Branka as the first in four generations. I suppose Gavorn could have been the last Paragon but we don't know that. House Gavorn, like House Ivo, has little actual power and is seen as relatively inconsequential. Similarly, House Harrowmont was around since practically the beginning and yet they were seen as a minor House until Pyral road Endrin's coattails to the top. If Bhelen becomes King, Vartag does the same.