616 réponses à ce sujet

[SSV Enterprise]

Kalfear wrote...

Notice how Walrusboy here cant debate or discuss anything about the game.
His only move is to attack attack attack (make up bunch of stuff not even in game) attack attack attack some more

Well Walrusbutt, your cyber bravery is so impressive you have us all shaking in fear (if we didnt know you were shoved in some garbage can for half your jr high school day every day)

If you want to discuss the TOPIC AT HAND (gasp, the horrror of it all), feel free to come forth with well thought out and EXISTING examples to discuss (not that garbage you proposing to Jestina thats not even in game to begin with) but otherwise Ill tell you what I told your other flaming comrade!

Go suck your mothers .... (you get the idea) and come back when you grown up some! Im bored of pre puberty children running their mouths on topics they have no clue about!

Again, if you want to actually talk about the topic, go ahead but based on your reply to anyone smarter then you, that doesnt seem likely to happen.

And people wonder why shooter kiddies have bad reps!

Oh and I dare you to find a post by me complaining about ME inventories. LOL, tell me, do you normally just make crap up or does someone older write it out for you before hand?

Hey, here's a movie I think you'd like.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_Liar

You can express your personal dissatisfaction in the game all you want.  When you start outright denying moments that are in the game, I can't take you seriously.  Mordin had no conflict of duty versus morality when investigating the genophage?  There was no krogan culture whatsoever in Grunt's Proving, a puberty ritual every krogan has to go through?  Jack never wonders if she can change as a person, yet asks you if shooting the guy on Pragia will fix her?  I feel like you're the turian councilor denying the Reapers.  You are just.  Plain.  Wrong.

[Alex_SM]

It would be nice to have different weapons with different damages/precision , and it could be related to the ammunition. The impact force would be a nice measure; it's not a direct damage counter, but you know that a 2000N impact force gun would make more or less double damage per shot than a 1000N impact force gun.

But I really don't think this is a critical point on the game. The RPG value of the game is not about skill points and level but about "role playing". The important thing is that you can create a character with the personality you decide, act according to that personality and make your decisions count; everything else (points, skills, inventory, combat system...) is totally secondary, it could be done in lots of different ways.

And in "Mass Effect 2" there's a lot more role playing than in many RPG games with lots of skills, leves, inventory, turn based combat and that kind of stuff. Even in Diablo you got everything some are asking for and there is no way that's an RPG.

Also there's something that doesn't makes sense in the leveling system. At the beggining of ME1 you are supposed to be somehow like the "best human soldier", nearly a legend. You are on the most advanced ship and ready to become the first human espectre.  You are actually some kind of supersoldier at the beggining. How is possible that you improve your habbilities more in the time you are chasing Saren than in all the previous years? The accuaracy at the first mission is really bad, in the last is awesome. The damage of the weapons in the first mission is bad, in the last is awesome.  

But that isn't really a ME fault, is a fault of nearly every game with a level system. They forget to remember that some times the story doesn't makes sense with a Level 1 character. 

Modifié par Alex_SM, 03 juin 2010 - 01:45 .

[nikki191]

KalosCast wrote...

The "twoo RPG fanz0rz" are not going to be happy until we have thousands of skill points that have an effect approaching nothing on their own and are able to custom-build their character down to the very last newton that 'Throw' will do and the thread-count on their sheets, but also never actually needing to do any of the combat that they're painstakingly building their character around.

This game has a completely unpleasable fanbase, stop trying to make us happy.

reminds me of college friends of mine never tabletop rpg with people who are doing their phd in physics

[Terror_K]

KalosCast wrote...

The "twoo RPG fanz0rz" are not going to be happy until we have thousands of skill points that have an effect approaching nothing on their own and are able to custom-build their character down to the very last newton that 'Throw' will do and the thread-count on their sheets, but also never actually needing to do any of the combat that they're painstakingly building their character around.

This game has a completely unpleasable fanbase, stop trying to make us happy.

While the "mE2 iz teh roxx0rz!!1" side can't seem to get it through their skulls that this is not what those who aren't happy with ME2 are after at all and that everything is black and white: if we're unhappy with the lack of RPG aspects in ME2, we muuust want it to be the most complex RPG in the history of the universe! <_<

[Riddley313]

Terror_K wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

The "twoo RPG fanz0rz" are not going to be happy until we have thousands of skill points that have an effect approaching nothing on their own and are able to custom-build their character down to the very last newton that 'Throw' will do and the thread-count on their sheets, but also never actually needing to do any of the combat that they're painstakingly building their character around.

This game has a completely unpleasable fanbase, stop trying to make us happy.

While the "mE2 iz teh roxx0rz!!1" side can't seem to get it through their skulls that this is not what those who aren't happy with ME2 are after at all and that everything is black and white: if we're unhappy with the lack of RPG aspects in ME2, we muuust want it to be the most complex RPG in the history of the universe! <_<

I'd settle for re-vamped RPG aspects that were cut out from the original. Heck, even the supposed superior combat in ME2 isn't really that rewarding - way too much emphasis on cover (especially on insanity), and global cool down on all abilities means you can't do combo effects. There was nothing wrong with the overheat mechanism and custom weapon options either. Overall, combat felt a lot more satisfying in the original, even though the AI was admittedly less than stellar. With weapon skills and other areas, there was incentive to level up and customize your character - in ME2 leveling up is mostly an afterthought. I can understand cleaning up a few areas, but the game was way too simplified.

Let's hope Dragon Age 2 doesn't get the same treatment.

Modifié par Riddley313, 04 juin 2010 - 03:15 .

[HTTP 404]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

EA_BiowareAccount wrote...

I hate to say it but RPGs are never realistic. Even with swords, hacking someone at the arm almost always disables it no matter how much "Hitpoints" you have but you can take turns hacking at someone in "traditional" RPGs, you can get up from fireballs when they blast you, and dragons can't just step on you because it doesn't do enough damage. If I went out today and killed a bunch of people do I all of a sudden become better at lockpicking? have more hitpoints? But I dont play RPGs for their "realism" I play them because they are fun!

RuneQuest: Characters did not gain more 'hit points', they just got better at avoiding damage or delivering more damage to their enemies.

RoleMaster: Critical Hits (or simply "crits"), can inflict additional concussion hits, bleeding (subtracted from concussion hits at the start of each new round), broken bones, loss of limbs or extremities, internal organ damage and outright death.

Cyberpunk 2020: The combat system, called "Friday Night Firefight", emphasizes lethality. Several pages in the rules are devoted to discussing real combat vs. the illusions often seen on TV.

Did I have fun playing or GMing them? Oh, yes.

Can't say I played those games but they sounds interesting!  No one should say that they play RPGs for the realism though, its just good fun anyways.

[Terror_K]

That's the thing. Most of those of us who are unhappy with the direction ME2 took felt that while ME1 was already rather RPG-Lite compared to the likes of Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age and even KotOR, its balance was about right for what it was trying to be: an RPG and TPS hybrid. Sure, not all its systems worked as well as they could have, but the RPG-to-Shooter ratio was pretty dead on. ME2 tips things far too much in favour of the latter, and this likely comes from BioWare's approach to making it try to appeal to a greater audience combined with their admission of not caring about the RPG elements and just trying to "make a great game" overall. Making a great game doesn't necessarily mean making a great RPG, and too much was sacrificed and oversimplified for the sake of making the game work well. After all, the less complex and deep a system is, the simpler it is and the less likely it is to break. Especially when one falls back on tried-and-true systems. Unfortunately, this also means it lacks depth or originality.

[StarcloudSWG]

I'm really surprised that people equate "Role Playing Game" with "inventory system + stores + looting". Mass Effect 2 is better in the Role Playing department than Mass Effect 1; instead of being distracted by inventory management, you as a player can focus on the story and let the inventory pretty much take care of itself.

The heart of any RPG is the story and the decisions you can make, not the loot you get and sell, not the hours wasted scanning planets or running around exploring otherwise empty landscapes.

[HTTP 404]

Riddley313 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

The "twoo RPG fanz0rz" are not going to be happy until we have thousands of skill points that have an effect approaching nothing on their own and are able to custom-build their character down to the very last newton that 'Throw' will do and the thread-count on their sheets, but also never actually needing to do any of the combat that they're painstakingly building their character around.

This game has a completely unpleasable fanbase, stop trying to make us happy.

While the "mE2 iz teh roxx0rz!!1" side can't seem to get it through their skulls that this is not what those who aren't happy with ME2 are after at all and that everything is black and white: if we're unhappy with the lack of RPG aspects in ME2, we muuust want it to be the most complex RPG in the history of the universe! <_<

I'd settle for re-vamped RPG aspects that were cut out from the original. Heck, even the supposed superior combat in ME2 isn't really that rewarding - way too much emphasis on cover (especially on insanity), and global cool down on all abilities means you can't do combo effects. There was nothing wrong with the overheat mechanism and custom weapon options either. Overall, combat felt a lot more satisfying in the original, even though the AI was admittedly less than stellar. With weapon skills and other areas, there was incentive to level up and customize your character - in ME2 leveling up is mostly an afterthought. I can understand cleaning up a few areas, but the game was way too simplified.

Let's hope Dragon Age 2 doesn't get the same treatment.

I highly doubt bioware would aim for both DAO2 and ME3 to be the same type of game.  the Mass effect universe will be a very action/shooter based streamlined RPG while DAO will continue to be true to its roots RPG like Baldurs Gate.  That should be everyones expectations (of course its not) DAO fans will want Mass Effect to be like DAO but it isnt, its a whole different game now and will be for ME3.  To go back to ME1 style or even make it more "RPG" would be shooting themselves in the financial foot (profits in selling games).  Bioware will still have hardcore RPGers in their DAO universe and will invest accordingly into it.

IMO the reasons you state that make ME1 better than ME2 are actually reasons why I like ME2 over ME1. I could get into details about what I disagree with you but at the end of the day its just our own opinions on the game and what we like. 

[Kalfear]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

Notice how Walrusboy here cant debate or discuss anything about the game.
His only move is to attack attack attack (make up bunch of stuff not even in game) attack attack attack some more

Well Walrusbutt, your cyber bravery is so impressive you have us all shaking in fear (if we didnt know you were shoved in some garbage can for half your jr high school day every day)

If you want to discuss the TOPIC AT HAND (gasp, the horrror of it all), feel free to come forth with well thought out and EXISTING examples to discuss (not that garbage you proposing to Jestina thats not even in game to begin with) but otherwise Ill tell you what I told your other flaming comrade!

Go suck your mothers .... (you get the idea) and come back when you grown up some! Im bored of pre puberty children running their mouths on topics they have no clue about!

Again, if you want to actually talk about the topic, go ahead but based on your reply to anyone smarter then you, that doesnt seem likely to happen.

And people wonder why shooter kiddies have bad reps!

Oh and I dare you to find a post by me complaining about ME inventories. LOL, tell me, do you normally just make crap up or does someone older write it out for you before hand?

Hey, here's a movie I think you'd like.

You can express your personal dissatisfaction in the game all you want.  When you start outright denying moments that are in the game, I can't take you seriously.  Mordin had no conflict of duty versus morality when investigating the genophage?  There was no krogan culture whatsoever in Grunt's Proving, a puberty ritual every krogan has to go through?  Jack never wonders if she can change as a person, yet asks you if shooting the guy on Pragia will fix her?  I feel like you're the turian councilor denying the Reapers.  You are just.  Plain.  Wrong.

Oh what a great example, he banged his head on the window, roared, you instantly went to his home world and did a single quest and all was good.

How thought provoking and detailed!

Give it up SSV, you can exagerate and make up all the nonsence you want, it was missing story and immersiveness for everyone but those satisfied with point and shot mechanics over and over.

Sorry but I demand more from my games and ME1 delivered.

Compare Liaras story about her mother where we found hints and suggestions all over the universe in ME1 before the grand final face off where her mother finally breaks through and delivers a heart warming and insightful speak to her daughter before death!

With Grunt we got RAWR, bang bang, shoot shoot, fixed

The fact you could even try and suggest the two similiar tells us all we need to know about how much you care about story and backstory and immersiveness in a game. You just want a line here and there and lots of gun play and everything is solved. How childish and narrowminded.

Same goes for Jack. Only a shooter fan would be appeased.

Ill grant you Mordins loyalty mission had some depth to it, far far far more then anyone elses but still not on par with what we got in ME1.

Modifié par Kalfear, 04 juin 2010 - 03:38 .

[SuperMedbh]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

I'm really surprised that people equate "Role Playing Game" with "inventory system + stores + looting". Mass Effect 2 is better in the Role Playing department than Mass Effect 1; instead of being distracted by inventory management, you as a player can focus on the story and let the inventory pretty much take care of itself.

Well said.  Personally, any time I start thinking about numbers, it takes me out of the story.  I love the fact that while the stats on the various guns and powers are available on the wiki, in game they're described as "good against shields, bad against armor, longer range than others of its type" and so on.  I'd even prefer not to know that I'm getting X percentage more out of an upgrade, unless that's something the character might know (ammo capacity, for example)

Bioware broke a lot of RPG "rules" with the Mass Effect series.  I think that in general, they made the right calls.  There's some things I miss about ME1, but you have to give the company credit for being willing to experiment.  If they were just redoing KOTOR with better graphics, they'd still be in business, but they wouldn't be an industry leader anymore.

[FlyingWalrus]

Kalfear wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Jestina, did you even play ME2? Because the way you're keening about how "stupid" and "vapid" the loyalty missions were isn't doing you any favors convincing anyone otherwise.

I guess exploring the conflict of morality versus duty with Mordin was pointless and stupid.

Same thing with Jack and wondering if it's not too late to change as a person.

Or maybe experiencing Krogan culture firsthand with Grunt was an contrived, idiotic waste of time?

Yeah, seriously. Stop. Legitimate criticisms are welcome, but hyperbolic whining just makes you look like a baby.

Kalfear, you are the worst example of ivory tower RPG elitists ever. You hold inventories and level-based systems to be sacrosanct no matter what other possibilities are out there. You would rather have 60 levels that, individually, mean nothing as opposed to 30 levels where one level up makes your character far more versatile or potent in ability. To take that further, you then insult the intelligence of any of those who may disagree. I suggest you step back from your computer screen, take a deep breath, and stop crying because you fear change.

Notice how Walrusboy here cant debate or discuss anything about the game.
His only move is to attack attack attack (make up bunch of stuff not even in game) attack attack attack some more

Well Walrusbutt, your cyber bravery is so impressive you have us all shaking in fear (if we didnt know you were shoved in some garbage can for half your jr high school day every day)

If you want to discuss the TOPIC AT HAND (gasp, the horrror of it all), feel free to come forth with well thought out and EXISTING examples to discuss (not that garbage you proposing to Jestina thats not even in game to begin with) but otherwise Ill tell you what I told your other flaming comrade!

Go suck your mothers .... (you get the idea) and come back when you grown up some! Im bored of pre puberty children running their mouths on topics they have no clue about!

Again, if you want to actually talk about the topic, go ahead but based on your reply to anyone smarter then you, that doesnt seem likely to happen.

And people wonder why shooter kiddies have bad reps!

Oh and I dare you to find a post by me complaining about ME inventories. LOL, tell me, do you normally just make crap up or does someone older write it out for you before hand?

Maaaaan, you are such a tool.

It's a bit ironic to take my stiffly-worded argument and skew it as "attack attack attack" in a critical light, then suggest I try to discuss the topic at hand, only to follow it up with a tossed salad of ad hominems and red herrings, don't you think?

I think someone is not illiterate but rather poor at reading comprehension. So, ignoring all the juvenile slights made in my direction, let me be as perfectly clear as I know I can be:

Those moments were in the game.

I thought of saying, "alright, let's have a point-by-point debate on this," but then I realized it is pointless to debate a topic with someone so deeply rooted in his own illogic that he denies things that actually occurred in the game.

So, Kalfear. I say this to you with the most neutral of positions: I suggest going back and doing a more thorough playthrough of the game, and then making a qualified critique.

And to the rest of you that think ME2 cut out RPG elements, do tell me, do arbitrary levels make you happy? Do you just like seeing that "level up!" notice so much that you'd rather they be insubstantive? Do you think it makes sense for a highly accomplished soldier to have to invest even more in his weapon skills? Do you think it's right that this can be circumvented by buying the most highly-spec'd weapon in that category? Should there be ten versions of the same gun with different names and colors? I could go on, but I think that's enough for this post.

Give me a break.

[Kalfear]

Id give you a break but it appears you been given far to many in your childhood and havent learned how to act in public, so no!



Listen kid, im not going to bother responding to your post other then to say this, anyone can make up assumptions like you do. Fact is nothing you wrote above is related to me. Where did I complain of the level up? ect ect ect.



When you grow up some, have actually read what I wrote, and can carry a level headed conversation come back. till then, go stroke your epeen some where else as im not interested in doing ebattle with a child whose on his few alotted hours of computer usage before he heads to bed so he can wake up for jr high tommorrow!



Cant say it any clearer to you. move along junior, move along.

[FlyingWalrus]

Kalfear wrote...

I cannot respond to your points in a mature manner, so I concede.

Thank you.

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

When will people realize once and for all that an RPG is not just about story, and its not just about items, its ALL those things combined that make a real RPG.

If we go and say that what matters for a game to be an RPG is story, then duh, most games must be RPGs no? there is a central character and story in most games, what makes an RPG is all the tiny details too and those are getting more and more discarded in ME2, its still a great game, but its too linear and customization of the team along with loot found or bought/traded is over, this is a letdown from the previous ME game, the inventory was bad yes but all we needed was a better implementation of that concept, not the complete removal of this feature.

Modifié par MoonChildTheUnholy, 04 juin 2010 - 04:30 .

[SSV Enterprise]

Kalfear wrote...

Oh what a great example, he banged his head on the window, roared, you instantly went to his home world and did a single quest and all was good.

How thought provoking and detailed!

Give it up SSV, you can exagerate and make up all the nonsence you want, it was missing story and immersiveness for everyone but those satisfied with point and shot mechanics over and over.

Sorry but I demand more from my games and ME1 delivered.

Compare Liaras story about her mother where we found hints and suggestions all over the universe in ME1 before the grand final face off where her mother finally breaks through and delivers a heart warming and insightful speak to her daughter before death!

With Grunt we got RAWR, bang bang, shoot shoot, fixed

The fact you could even try and suggest the two similiar tells us all we need to know about how much you care about story and backstory and immersiveness in a game. You just want a line here and there and lots of gun play and everything is solved. How childish and narrowminded.

Same goes for Jack. Only a shooter fan would be appeased.

Ill grant you Mordins loyalty mission had some depth to it, far far far more then anyone elses but still not on par with what we got in ME1.

Yeah, it's not like Grunt's quest involved talking to the Shaman, the cultural leader of the krogan, talking about his role with the krogan, and the shifting krogan culture between traditionalists like Gatatog Uvenk and Wrex.  You didn't say it was brief at first, you outright denied its existence.  For that, I called you a liar.

You are also being deliberately insulting to me.  Here's a fact, and I will type it in caps so it gets through your thick skull:  INTELLIGENT PEOPLE LIKE MASS EFFECT 2.  I loved Mass Effect 1 for the same basic reasons you do.  I love the backstory, the effort put into building the immersive universe of Mass Effect.  I loved the memorable, deep characters.  And I think ALL of these elements were still in Mass Effect 2, many to an even greater extent.

Grunt's quest does involve a lot of shooting.  He's krogan.  What else did you expect?  It's not like shooting itself is a bad thing- or else you would hate ME1 as well.  On the other hand, Samara and Thane's loyalty missions involved no shooting at all, yet remained cinematic and had a plot.  In ME1, any sidequest that had a plot beyond "go here, talk to this person, go here and talk to this other person, okay you're done" always had shooting in it.  If excessive shooting is a flaw of ME2, ME1 is no more innocent.

Jack's loyalty mission was not particularly guilty of this, either.  Sure, it had some shooting- but there was no shooting in the part where she walked around her room, reminiscing on the time she spent there.  It was somewhat deep and reflective, not just shooting stuff up.

As for Liara- really?  All bringing Liara along for the Noveria quest did was you got a comment at the beginning and could tell her to go back to the ship, Benezia says something not even directly to Liara at the beginning of the fight, and then says some inconsequential thing about "little wing" as she dies.  Liara doesn't affect the actual conversation you have with Benezia at all.  She doesn't make a difference for the outcome.  If you don't take Liara with you, the exact same thing happens with Benezia breaking through and giving you the information.  I actually found that part rather disappointing in ME1.

Another comparison between ME1 and ME2 that could be made are Garrus' and Wrex' "missions" in ME1.  For Garrus in ME1, you talked with him about a run-in with a sick doctor, he told you where to go, you went to a single place, found the doctor in one of the copy-and-paste freighter levels, and killed him.  End mission.  Nothing cinematic about it.  An interesting moral dilemma on how to be sure criminals face justice, but nothing more.  Compare that to Archangel's loyalty mission in ME2.  He tells you about the guy who betrayed his team, but doesn't know exactly where he is.  You track down Fade to find him, then either let Archangel kill him for revenge or try to make him forgive.  Similar moral dilemma, but done much more in-depth, with superior level design and cinematic direction.

Then take Wrex's mission in ME1. Wrex tells you about someone who stole his family armor.  You track him down to another cut-and-paste warehouse.  You find the armor, Wrex says something about it, but instead of animating his reaction, the game relies on text to convey his emotions.  TEXT.  One thing you can be sure about in the loyalty missions of ME2 is that the game never has to rely on text to convey the reactions of the squad members.

Stop assuming that just because someone likes Mass Effect 2, they are somehow unintelligent.  YOU are the one being childish and narrow-minded for thinking that.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 04 juin 2010 - 05:00 .

[SSV Enterprise]

A book can't provide stunning visuals and interactive story like both ME1 and ME2 do.

[kraidy1117]

I still find it funny that people think a inventory system makes a RPG. I gues RDR, GTA games and even the RE games are RPGs then. Inventory systems have nothing to do with RPGs, it's just a feature, it is not needed. a RPG is about taking a hcaracter and shaping them make decisions, interating with the game world and explorining the game world and talking with people.. ME2 has that and did it better then ME.

/discussion.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 04 juin 2010 - 05:07 .

[SuperMedbh]

slimgrin wrote...

I equate role playing with strategy first, and character second. I can read a story in a book - sorry for this tired argument, but its true. If I want to play a character, however,  you bet I want stats and inventory: that is part the experience. Its not like I need to whip out a calculator to know which number is higher. Hours are wasted in ME2's planet scanning and ME1's inventory. But that's not the case with other RPG's which avoid such time consuming mistakes.

I agree on how immersive videogames are (okies, the week I got Mass Effect, household cleaning went to heck.  My dog didn't care).  But....why does stats make for immersiveness?  A real person would know some general things about their stuff and general experience level, of course.  Joker knows he's one of the best pilots around.  Sorry, THE best pilot around.  He was top of his class in flight school, has a billion commedations to his name, and led (plus survived!) the attack on Sovereign.  He doesn't think "I'm a 30th level pilot with rank four in aircombat, tech and hotness".

[kraidy1117]

slimgrin wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

I still find it funny that people think a inventory system makes a RPG. I gues RDR, GTA games and even the RE games are RPGs then. Inventory systems have nothing to do with RPGs, it's just a future, it is not needed. a RPG is about taking a hcaracter and shaping them make decisions, interating with the game world and explorining. ME2 has that and did it better then ME.

/discussion.

Then why do 99% of rpg's bother with inventories and stats? Are they misguided? Maybe they should all be quick time events like Heavy rain. Pure story, no real gameplay.

Edit: this type of argument would get nowhere on Blizzard's forums, I bet.

Yet non-RPGs also have inventory systems, thus inventory systems does not mean it is a RPG, it's about the PC, the game world, the characters ect. The inventory system in ME2 was way better then ME because ME inventory system was crap. Ypu might have enjoyed it but I did not. There was only four weapons in ME and the only diffrence was stats, in ME2 each weapon was unuqe and the diffrence was not stats, that's better IMHO then getting a crap load of loot. Is the ME2 inventory system perfect? Not at all, it's flawed like the one in ME but it's still better.

[kraidy1117]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Some of you rabid fanyboys need to get off of your high horse and look at things a little more objectively around here.

Fanboys can't, ME fanboys refuse to see flaws in Me and see ME2 did somethings better and ME2 fanboys think ME2 is perfect and was teh best game ever. Both have alot of flaws and are no where near Biowares best.