102 réponses à ce sujet

[Templar Vilmon]

Several of my real-life gaming buddies (we play D&D and board games) are also avid Dragon Age players. I got into a discussion with them about sex in the game and a character's morality. My argument was that a good or chivalrous character would not necessarily be breaking their ethical code if they get romantically involved with another party member. Their counter-argument is that anyone with a strong sense of duty would quickly put aside any romantic interest for the greater good.

Then we started talking about whether it's immoral for a good and noble character to visit the working girls (or boys) at the Pearl. I said it was mostly ok if you're character isn't already in a relationship. The Pearl employees are well-paid and well-treated, so it's not like your character is abusing some 15-year-old runaway strung out on lyrium. Also, in other cultures there are plenty of examples of noble warriors having love affairs with courtesans. For example, plenty of Japanese folk legends feature samurai heroes and the geisha who love and aid them.

My friends argued that if you're trying to strictly roleplay a character, only shady rogues or ruthless mercenary types would do business at the Pearl.

So, what do you all think about sex and roleplaying a virtuous character? Do my friends have a legit argument that a pure of heart character wouldn't get romantically involved? Would hooking up with a companion really be a complete dereliction of duty? 

[Giggles_Manically]

Well before this descends into ZOMG t@ts and bums talk I will throw in I quess. If your warden comes to care for another person there is nothing wrong with that unless you are Wynne. There is no interference in duties as long as you do your job.
 
On a completely unrelated note to snub Wynne I went over and made out with Leliana with my Mage. Double fun against that nob.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 31 mai 2010 - 08:47 .

[Nerdage]

Regarding romances in camp, it's an awfully convenient attitude I suppose but what would you be doing with that time if not spending it with a partner? You have to sleep some time, so you get to sleep a few minutes later (guess the exact ammount of time depends how you role-play...) than you would otherwise, it's hardly a dereliction of duty.

And the pearl, well I guess that depends on the character / circumstances. If you're playing a righteous, chantry type character, or romancing a similar character; Alistair, unhardened Leliana, I guess it would seem wrong, but it's hard to say for sure.

Modifié par nerdage, 31 mai 2010 - 11:11 .

[JosieJ]

Templar Vilmon, your friends seem to view love and sex through the chivalric ideal:  love is chaste and pure, sex--especially if treated as a commodity to be bought and sold--is wrong, and heroes deny their own desires for the greater good.

Others (including myself) tend to roleplay their Wardens not so much as chivalric heroes, but more human, with human desires, needs and faults.  

I see nothing wrong with either view, as long as one is true to their own roleplay, and realizes that everyone will not have the same views as themselves.

Modifié par JosieJ, 31 mai 2010 - 11:28 .

[Arttis]

il go with it depends on what you consider right and wrong.*its different for everyone*

So there are no wrong answers.

Why do people consider prostitution bad?

Why cant a noble person visit a brothel while still being noble.

Heck if the person your romancing does not care it shouldnt be wrong.

So il go with this if your hurting anyone who does not deserve it then your bad

If your only hurting people who deserve it then your good.

THen how do you know when someone deserves it.

i say again no wrong answer.

SO do what you like

if being noble means having everyone around you respect and look up to you/think your good and kind then figure out what kind of person the people around you would respect/think of you in the way you want.

If you dont care about what the people around you think then go with what you think a good person is or whatever.

I have no idea what im talking about lol

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Templar Vilmon wrote...

So, what do you all think about sex and roleplaying a virtuous character? Do my friends have a legit argument that a pure of heart character wouldn't get romantically involved? Would hooking up with a companion really be a complete dereliction of duty? 

All characters have vices - even the virtuous ones. As far as sex is concerned, I don't see why a romantic relationship can't be pure. Love (not to be confused with simple sexual gratification) is a virtue. Would getting deeply attached to someone interfere with a hero's duties to 'the greater good'? Maybe. I think it would be much *easier* for a hero to do whatever it takes if they didn't have to worry about hurting someone who loved them, but merely getting involved isn't a dereliction of duty...it'll potentially just make certain choices harder.

I'd also argue that being really close to people, not necessarily *involved*, could make choices difficult.

I'll leave out the paid-sex stuff for now. Gotta get back to work.

[Avilia]

Morality is very subjective imo.



None of my chars have ever used the Pearl nor enjoyed Isabella's company.



I can see why doing either would be seen as 'immoral' but personally I don't avoid it because of that. I simply don't RP my chars in a way that they'd want to do either.



This includes chars that are quite happy with the idea of pursuing both Zev and Alistair until such time as one of them objects. ;-)

[Arttis]

my city elf who let a ton of girls get raped for money.made both morrigan and leliana fall in love with my guy

and rejected to sleep with them....he also slaughtered all mages that could be killed and protected the dalish and cured the werewolves....didnt defile ashes and killed off all cultists.....my guy has some wierd morals am i right

[Shadedclan]

I personally, don't do morality. Sort of. I just do what I would do. Sometimes I kill people, sometimes I help them.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sleeping With Gheyna with my Evil Mage was funny:

Ghenya: I cant believe I did that!

Me: Thats what they all say



BOYAA!

[maxernst]

Shadedclan wrote...

I personally, don't do morality. Sort of. I just do what I would do. Sometimes I kill people, sometimes I help them.

Umm...I do hope you're referring to what your character in the game does, rather than what you do!

I don't think there's any a priori reason to consider patronising a brothel immoral...it's just paying somebody for a service.  If your character is in a committed romance with another NPC, then it would probably be viewed as immoral...which is why my first PC didn't, but my second PC did.  Now, if the employees of the Pearl are especially exploited, I suppose you could argue that it's immoral, but we simply don't have information to say.  Are they free to take employment elsewhere if they so choose?  Are they well treated and paid?  We do know that the establishment takes measures to ensure their safety, which is a good thing.  I suppose you might assume (based on your knowledge of prostitution elsewhere) that they likely are exploited and call it immoral on that basis.  But then when we buy a suit of armor, we don't know whether the metal was mined by slaves, either.

One thing of note...most of your companions don't seem to disapprove (or not much), which may be an indication that prostitution is far more accepted in Ferelden society than in modern western society. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Dosent it cost money to use the Pearl? Besides in the endgame I splurge on all the best gear and runes for the final fight.

[Lintanis]

Playing as a Mage whos just glad to get out of the tower away from the Templars and is going to make the most of it 

[Marbazoid]

I would only see a distinction if it was simply a choice between save the world, or save the one you love. Why would refuse to get involved with someone simply because it "might" complicate things? Not a good enough excuse.



A character with no flaws is no character at all.



But the game doesn't judge your actions by rewarding you "angel" or "devil" points. Do what you think is right.

[tallinn]

Templar Vilmon wrote...

Several of my real-life gaming buddies (we play D&D and board games) are also avid Dragon Age players. I got into a discussion with them about sex in the game and a character's morality. My argument was that a good or chivalrous character would not necessarily be breaking their ethical code if they get romantically involved with another party member. Their counter-argument is that anyone with a strong sense of duty would quickly put aside any romantic interest for the greater good.

That depends on the character that is being played. it is not necessarily so that a grey warden in the plot given by the game is the military character guy or girl that focus totally on the quest at hand. In stories and movies I found those guys that totally focus on their task and not seeking relief in any kind of relationship hard to beleive. It is simply not human nature. In the scenario given by the game I find it much more natural that at least one relationship is evolving. So I think your friends are wrong if the categorically deny yournoble  warden to persue romantic interests. It may be just me but I find it hard to believe that a male warden would not fall in love with Leliana eventually, I at least can't stay neutral toward that woman :-)

Templar Vilmon wrote...

Then we started talking about whether it's immoral for a good and noble character to visit the working girls (or boys) at the Pearl.

Now that is funny. It may be legend but I have been told that moral regarding prostitutes was nowhere that harsh in the middle age then it is nowadays (or was some decades ago). Not even the catholic church did really something about that being much more busiy in selling relief through letters (which means the church was happy about sinners as they were going to ask for those letters). Given that it is more the question wether your warden will allow himself to waste money here. And making business with a **** while being in a relationship was betrayal then as it is today, unless the relationship was an arranged one. The common point being always true is that true love asks for loyality. That has been true since mankind appeared in the world. Ok, Morrigan would probably not object as long as her approval is below 100. But how can one fell in true love with Morrigan?

Modifié par tallinn, 01 juin 2010 - 07:37 .

[soteria]

In Mass Effect, I'd say it's wrong. Spoilers: The conversation you have with Ash/Kaidan after the other one dies illustrates why perfectly, I think. In combat, it's completely destructive to discipline and morale for soldiers to know that their commanding officer is more interested in someone else's survival than their own. That's just one of many reasons that fraternization is a chargeable offense.

The same issue never really comes up in Dragon Age, but I could certainly make the same argument. Were I one of the other companions, I would probably consider leaving, depending on the couple and depending on how strongly I felt about stopping the Archdemon.

[DWSmiley]

I agree with tallinn. For several months you are adventuring with your companions, enduring great dangers together and often saving each other's lives. Bonding is almost inevitable. Though I've played a couple of pc's who never got into a romance - a dwarven lass who couldn't relate to "big folk" that way and a Dalish lad who was too innocent and bumbling. By the time he decided he wanted Leliana she was locked into "best friends" mode while Morrigan and Zev were so not his type.

[DWSmiley]

soteria wrote...

In Mass Effect, I'd say it's wrong. Spoilers: The conversation you have with Ash/Kaidan after the other one dies illustrates why perfectly, I think. In combat, it's completely destructive to discipline and morale for soldiers to know that their commanding officer is more interested in someone else's survival than their own. That's just one of many reasons that fraternization is a chargeable offense.
The same issue never really comes up in Dragon Age, but I could certainly make the same argument. Were I one of the other companions, I would probably consider leaving, depending on the couple and depending on how strongly I felt about stopping the Archdemon.

I think the companions are all too motivated to do that except Shale, who wouldn't care anyway.

[Patriciachr34]

Just a thought on the morality of The Pearl, I read a book a couple of years ago about medieval prostitution. The book was a history of church sponsored prostitution in France. If I remember correctly, the churches take on it was that it was better for men to seek out the company of these women rather than to let their bestial nature get the better of them and cause them to do violence to those around them. Rape gangs were not uncommon at this time. So, bath houses and such were seen as a social necessity and therefore not considered "sin". The morality of prostitution was never an issue. It was not uncommon for the priests to visit these establishments as well. It's just something to consider.

[soteria]

I think the companions are all too motivated to do that except Shale, who wouldn't care anyway.

No, probably not. I was kinda thinking in context of the Mass Effect companions, who generally speaking don't have a very strong attachment to you, imo.

If I remember correctly, the churches take on it was that it was better for men to seek out the company of these women rather than to let their bestial nature get the better of them and cause them to do violence to those around them. Rape gangs were not uncommon at this time.

I've heard this sort of thing before, but I'm not sure how true it is. From what little I understand of the subject, rape is more about violence and control than sexual release, so I'm a little skeptical that prostitution is a good solution. Besides, I'd always take anything the medieval Catholic church had to say about science or psychology or whatever with a grain of salt. Just saying.

[Rhys Cordelle]

What does "pure of heart" even mean? If it means what I think it means, people like that just don't exist, and if they do, they're boring!

[old book]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

What does "pure of heart" even mean?

I'd say that "pure of heart" was usually meant as "pure followers of the Christian Chivalric ideal". You don't find it much outside of fiction.

These days, when it does show up, it's usually meant as "dedicated to a single goal or set of ideals", which can also be read as "fanatical". Leo Frankowski once wrote that you could find people who were purely dedicated to anything. Pure love, pure duty, pure hate.

The Warden might be stronger if he allowed nothing to distract him from his pure pursuit of duty. On the other hand, he might also miss out on the strength that comes from building true friendships and alliances, and the strength that can come from love.

Wynne warns the Warden against involvements, but also admits she was wrong. It's an interesting topic to explore.

As far as more casual sex is concerned, meh. It's a natural function. The Human and City Elf characters were raised in a world where the Chantry doesn't forbid sex or demonize it (though it frowns on certain types of relationships), and neither the Dalish nor the Dwarves seem particularly anti-sex. It doesn't seem to be a moral issue in Dragon Age.

[Asdara]

Templar Vilmon wrote...

Several of my real-life gaming buddies (we play D&D and board games) are also avid Dragon Age players. I got into a discussion with them about sex in the game and a character's morality. My argument was that a good or chivalrous character would not necessarily be breaking their ethical code if they get romantically involved with another party member. Their counter-argument is that anyone with a strong sense of duty would quickly put aside any romantic interest for the greater good.

Then we started talking about whether it's immoral for a good and noble character to visit the working girls (or boys) at the Pearl. I said it was mostly ok if you're character isn't already in a relationship. The Pearl employees are well-paid and well-treated, so it's not like your character is abusing some 15-year-old runaway strung out on lyrium. Also, in other cultures there are plenty of examples of noble warriors having love affairs with courtesans. For example, plenty of Japanese folk legends feature samurai heroes and the geisha who love and aid them.

My friends argued that if you're trying to strictly roleplay a character, only shady rogues or ruthless mercenary types would do business at the Pearl.

So, what do you all think about sex and roleplaying a virtuous character? Do my friends have a legit argument that a pure of heart character wouldn't get romantically involved? Would hooking up with a companion really be a complete dereliction of duty? 

Pardon my saying so, but your friend sounds like a bit of a prude.  There's nothing ignoble about having an actual relationship with another person.  Now, if you were to say, I don't know, run away from you duty of saving the world to go be with that person - that might be a deal breaker on the morality point.  Otherwise, it is just cowardice in my opinion.  If you are so uncertain of your ability to perform your duty no matter what the cost as to avoid making any potential complication for yourself by avoiding love when it presents itself - there may be a strong basis for your self-doubt.  Wynne covers some of this in campfire dialog regarding the Alistair romance (and possibly others, though she never seemed to mind me shacking up with Zevran)

Besides, Chivalry had a horrible tendency to fail.  Look at Gawain and the Green Knight or Lancelot and his good buddy King Arthur's wife.  Admiring and not loving, being "pure of heart" can get you into a lot more trouble than honest relations can.

[caradoc2000]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

What does "pure of heart" even mean?

From the medical point of view it probably means the person has no cardiovascular diseases...