102 réponses à ce sujet

[Astranagant]

Templar Vilmon wrote...

Several of my real-life gaming buddies (we play D&D and board games) are also avid Dragon Age players. I got into a discussion with them about sex in the game and a character's morality. My argument was that a good or chivalrous character would not necessarily be breaking their ethical code if they get romantically involved with another party member. Their counter-argument is that anyone with a strong sense of duty would quickly put aside any romantic interest for the greater good.

Then we started talking about whether it's immoral for a good and noble character to visit the working girls (or boys) at the Pearl. I said it was mostly ok if you're character isn't already in a relationship. The Pearl employees are well-paid and well-treated, so it's not like your character is abusing some 15-year-old runaway strung out on lyrium. Also, in other cultures there are plenty of examples of noble warriors having love affairs with courtesans. For example, plenty of Japanese folk legends feature samurai heroes and the geisha who love and aid them.

My friends argued that if you're trying to strictly roleplay a character, only shady rogues or ruthless mercenary types would do business at the Pearl.

So, what do you all think about sex and roleplaying a virtuous character? Do my friends have a legit argument that a pure of heart character wouldn't get romantically involved? Would hooking up with a companion really be a complete dereliction of duty? 

Duty is a subjective social construct, just like morality.

If your noble house is dying out and your father's dying command was that you go out and save the lineage by banging as many women as possible, not doing it would not be dutiful.

Modifié par Astranagant, 02 juin 2010 - 02:43 .

[Patriciachr34]

soteria wrote...

I think the companions are all too motivated to do that except Shale, who wouldn't care anyway.

No, probably not. I was kinda thinking in context of the Mass Effect companions, who generally speaking don't have a very strong attachment to you, imo.

If I remember correctly, the churches take on it was that it was better for men to seek out the company of these women rather than to let their bestial nature get the better of them and cause them to do violence to those around them. Rape gangs were not uncommon at this time.

I've heard this sort of thing before, but I'm not sure how true it is. From what little I understand of the subject, rape is more about violence and control than sexual release, so I'm a little skeptical that prostitution is a good solution. Besides, I'd always take anything the medieval Catholic church had to say about science or psychology or whatever with a grain of salt. Just saying.

Remember this was a midieval take on things.  We know now that rape is about fear and control, but back then they saw it as result of pent up lust.  For them this seemed an equitible solution.

[maxernst]

Remember also that there were essentially no sexual outlets for single men other than homosexuality (which was probably more accepted than you might think) and prostitutes. Prostitution was legal and much more widespread then than in modern Western societies. In 1490 or so, 7000 women in Rome and 11000 in Venice were registered as prostitutes....those are comparable to modern Amsterdam, which is much larger than either of those cities.

[Giggles_Manically]

It all depends on your origin-

Human and Dwarven Nobles- they probably see sex as a free and easy things, Noble Hunters, and if you listen to Fergus in some dialouge he jokes about you and servants and roles in the hay. Showing evidence that sex is viewed for fun and enjoyment. Like nobles in Medieval Europe.



Elf and Dwarf Commenor- Sex for them is less likely to be just for fun/pleasure as they would be working all the time, and having a family meant having to take care of it. For the elf c. the alienage works like a Jewish Ghetto with arranged marriages, so sex before marriage was a no-no. However the dwarf c. would view sex as more casual if you are femal just talk to Leske, or to other femal DC as a male. So the Dwarf commenor is similar to SE Asian societies were marriage was for convience for poor people. Overall sexuality is more about marriage/family ties than nobles.



Mage: Mages I am not sure on my lore, but Anders and Wynne both reveal that Mages do seek each other out in the circle. I am not sure about the Chantries rules on mages, so it can either be viewed as a monostary by some, or as a frat house depending on the mage.



Dalish Elf: Really not sure on this one, the Dalish resemble Gypsies in Europe, but seem to not be as rowdy. If Gheyna and Cammen are an example <gag> then it looks like Dalish get paired off early possibly.



So in short depending on my Origin that is how I view my charchters ideas on sexuality. Take a history course if you want to know more, there is a whole month devoted to sex and marriage.

[soteria]

Remember also that there were essentially no sexual outlets for single men other than homosexuality (which was probably more accepted than you might think) and prostitutes. Prostitution was legal and much more widespread then than in modern Western societies. In 1490 or so, 7000 women in Rome and 11000 in Venice were registered as prostitutes....those are comparable to modern Amsterdam, which is much larger than either of those cities.

Err... you think casual sex is an innovation of the late 20th century? I'm a little puzzled that you would say homosexuality was more accepted than a person might think, but at the same time seem to assume that everyone else was only having sex within wedlock. If you really think that, I'll just say that sexual promiscuity was probably more accepted than you might think.

Modifié par soteria, 02 juin 2010 - 07:18 .

[maxernst]

Well, I exaggerated the case, but women had far more to lose prior to the last century than they did before. I'm pretty sure that the combination of far greater personal freedom for women, greater financial independence for women, and availability of effective birth control made it a great deal easier for women to have sex outside of wedlock without severe repercussions...and more opportunity to meet men privately (which was difficult for young women in many traditional societies). Obviously, it happened--there were plenty of bastards born--but I would guess that women still being virgins at the time of their marriage was rather more common than it is today, especially in the upper classes. And among the lower classes, I would guess that a fair number of the sexual liaisons had a financial component (kept mistresses).

[Daewan]

Templar Vilmon wrote... <znipity doo dah>

My friends argued that if you're trying to strictly roleplay a character, only shady rogues or ruthless mercenary types would do business at the Pearl.

So, what do you all think about sex and roleplaying a virtuous character? Do my friends have a legit argument that a pure of heart character wouldn't get romantically involved? Would hooking up with a companion really be a complete dereliction of duty? 

Your friends don't know their history.  They're basing their morals on a skewed version history, and seeing it with contemporary eyes.

A place like the Pearl would have been frequented by the upper class, not rogues or mercenaries.  Note that they were unwelcome there, and were there as the result of Howe's meddling in the current state of affairs.  It should have been a place for rich burghers and their noble clients to meet and discuss business before retiring for an evening of pleasure.

A "full man" would be expected not only to prove his prowess in battle, but in bed as well.  A hero with no romantic entanglements would raise quite a few eyebrows.  Celibacy, when the average life expentancy is less than 50 years, is pretty criminally selfish.  If you have the ability to survive everything that the world throws at you with grace and panache, you need to pass that on to the next generation.  "Saving yourself" when you spend every day facing death is pretty senseless.

The issue for female heroes would be the time it takes to finish reproducing.  But that's really no excuse not to practice for the great event when every hedge witch and tavern has what you need to prevent unexpected surprises.

[Giggles_Manically]

In Medieval England in fact the majority of first borns were bastards.

Shakespere's first child was a bastard as well for todays useless bit o trivia.



If anyone wants to really get into this topic read "A history of the Wife" it covers everything we have talked about. Also my Dalish totally just nomed Zevran, so she is a little more liberal than others about sex i think.

[maxernst]

Well, okay, if women were really that freely available, why was prostitution so much more common in the past? My point was that in medieval societies, prostitution was far more widespread and accepted than it is today (in Western societies)...and we don't see any evidence that frequenting prostitutes is viewed negatively in Ferelden.



Your point that the status of women is obviously much better in Ferelden than in real medieval societies is correct, but that would make modern moral codes more applicable rather than less.

[Templar Vilmon]

Daewan wrote...

Templar Vilmon wrote...

My friends argued that if you're trying to strictly roleplay a character, only shady rogues or ruthless mercenary types would do business at the Pearl.

So, what do you all think about sex and roleplaying a virtuous character? Do my friends have a legit argument that a pure of heart character wouldn't get romantically involved? Would hooking up with a companion really be a complete dereliction of duty? 

Your friends don't know their history.  They're basing their morals on a skewed version history, and seeing it with contemporary eyes.

A place like the Pearl would have been frequented by the upper class, not rogues or mercenaries.  Note that they were unwelcome there, and were there as the result of Howe's meddling in the current state of affairs.  It should have been a place for rich burghers and their noble clients to meet and discuss business before retiring for an evening of pleasure.

A "full man" would be expected not only to prove his prowess in battle, but in bed as well.  A hero with no romantic entanglements would raise quite a few eyebrows.  Celibacy, when the average life expentancy is less than 50 years, is pretty criminally selfish.  If you have the ability to survive everything that the world throws at you with grace and panache, you need to pass that on to the next generation.  "Saving yourself" when you spend every day facing death is pretty senseless.

The issue for female heroes would be the time it takes to finish reproducing.  But that's really no excuse not to practice for the great event when every hedge witch and tavern has what you need to prevent unexpected surprises.

Good point Daewan. I wasn't that familiar with sexuality in medieval Europe -  I simply thought it must have been extremely repressed considering all the other social controls were in effect.

That gets me thinking - what are the sexual boundaries of templars and mages? Obviously, Templars are not allowed to marry but I wonder if they would be disgraced or even killed if they snuck off to see the bar wench at the Spoiled Princess now and again. What about mages? Wynne was once in a relationship, but it ended badly. I can see the Chantry wanting to not have mages procreate and possibly passing on their "gift" to a new generation.

[GardenSnake]

Depends on the character your role playing, on my second playthrough, my mage (who was an **** if it helps) was horny as ****. He literally had sex with everything that he could, nugs, elves, dwarves, witches, not bards (he told Lel to screw off, but he probably regretted not bedding her lol) and dragons..... wait no, that was a crazy fantasy of his. I'd say that not developing a relationship for the greater good kind of makes you a square don't you think? I mean your out adventuring with these beautiful people for about a year and your fighting together and watching each others back, somethings gotta give. It's like what if on Lost, nobody got it on because they all wanted to get off the island so badly, it's unrealistic for nothing to happen IMO.

[SRWill64]

You can have a historical or a modern take on morality or sexual issues for any role playing game that you like, but the simple and pure truth of the matter is that these are fantasy worlds and they do not have the same constrants on them as our largely Judeo-Christian society in the Western World. Thus, we have to take a view on their situation to assess morality; in Thedas the people (all people) are threatened (especially the dwarves) with annihilation on a daily basis...and if they're not, the possibility is always there looming in the shadows. For any of these people, children are a blessing...and we all know that you don't dream of them and a spirit delivers them from the Fade or whatever....you have to have sex to get them, just like in our world...biology is still biology. Why put any of Earth's stictures on a fantasy world? It doesn't fit there.
So if I were to guess, my characters would see it as a dereliction of duty to NOT have sex, epecially when you know the darkspawn are in the Deep Roads doing the deed as often as they can and increasing their numbers! The bad guys would have the numbers if the good guys were too busy being pure to have a little pleasure themselves!

Modifié par SRWill64, 03 juin 2010 - 06:53 .

[Weiser_Cain]

It's not cheating if my partner isn't in the party.

The best sexual encounters in the game are the out of party ones. Now by my reasoning that makes the not ok since nothing that fun or funny is good aligned. Brothels always earn you dark side points.

[Kenrae]

Templar Vilmon wrote...

Several of my real-life gaming buddies (we play D&D and board games) are also avid Dragon Age players. I got into a discussion with them about sex in the game and a character's morality. My argument was that a good or chivalrous character would not necessarily be breaking their ethical code if they get romantically involved with another party member. Their counter-argument is that anyone with a strong sense of duty would quickly put aside any romantic interest for the greater good.

Then we started talking about whether it's immoral for a good and noble character to visit the working girls (or boys) at the Pearl. I said it was mostly ok if you're character isn't already in a relationship. The Pearl employees are well-paid and well-treated, so it's not like your character is abusing some 15-year-old runaway strung out on lyrium. Also, in other cultures there are plenty of examples of noble warriors having love affairs with courtesans. For example, plenty of Japanese folk legends feature samurai heroes and the geisha who love and aid them.

My friends argued that if you're trying to strictly roleplay a character, only shady rogues or ruthless mercenary types would do business at the Pearl.

So, what do you all think about sex and roleplaying a virtuous character? Do my friends have a legit argument that a pure of heart character wouldn't get romantically involved? Would hooking up with a companion really be a complete dereliction of duty? 

Your friends are bringing modern morals to a fantasy medievalized world. Everything they're saying is from a 21st century occidental perspective. Just because we consider something to be right or wrong it doesn't mean it has always been that way or that it's that way everywhere. And we shouldn't be so arrogant as to consider our point of view superior to others.

[Weiser_Cain]

No, no, nope... my morals are superior to knights if only because I don't force myself on peasants.

[Giggles_Manically]

My only charachter who didnt pursue a romance was my Dwarf Noble, too busy ploting his return to power.

[Madame November]

If the "good guys" never have sex, I am going over to the dark side.

Why would any consensual sex be immoral? Roleplaying means you can choose what kind of character you have, doesn't it?

Modifié par November Cousland, 03 juin 2010 - 03:26 .

[Lintanis]

November Cousland wrote...

If the "good guys" never have sex, I am going over to the dark side.

 class the best quote so far 

[Daewan]

maxernst wrote...

Well, okay, if women were really that freely available, why was prostitution so much more common in the past? My point was that in medieval societies, prostitution was far more widespread and accepted than it is today (in Western societies)...and we don't see any evidence that frequenting prostitutes is viewed negatively in Ferelden.

Your point that the status of women is obviously much better in Ferelden than in real medieval societies is correct, but that would make modern moral codes more applicable rather than less.

You know, if you really believe that to be true, you must live under a rock.  Or not read the back page of certain newspapers.  Or certain sections of Craigslist.

[Giggles_Manically]

Yah i doubt Craigslist is that bad after they had to remove a few ads.. <takes a look>

holy..

[SRWill64]

You people are definitely living under a rock if you believe good people don't have sex...and that includes in Ferelden. Hello...even Wynne had a child and makes comments about waking up with a younger man in her bed...and she's a good person!

[asaiasai]

That is part of the release as the party commander you are responsible for the success or failure of the party, and since failure means lots of people die, no pressure or anything. As for visiting the working girls or boys at the Pearl, morality is not so cut and dry. Visiting the workers at the Pearl is not immoral, visiting them and not paying for services rendered, however is. I have always thought it was none of my bussiness to tell another person what thier best asset is, if you have a talent involving 50 feet of garden hose and a golf ball, you go be all that you can be, just make sure the govt gets thier vig and all is cool in my book. Life is like a multiple choice test and it is annoying that there are some prudes that want to strike some questions from the test. What 2 consenting adults do in private is no one's bussiness but thiers, so long as it is consentual it is a non issue, regardless of money changing hands. It is illegal because if it was not fat chicks would be sol, and what guy in his right mind would EVER buy when one can lease and return it before the expiration date. Unless of course you want to make a bunch of pet humans then make as many as you can afford with out government assistance.



Asai

[Maria13]

Great question, Vilmon and you have gathered some great responses.



My take on this is that even if you are virtuous if you have consensual sex with another adult either as part of a loving relationship or as "trade" you remain virtuous so long as you respect the other person.



Further, if you are part of a small band, partnerships can make you stronger. I'm a bit rusty on ancient history but one of the backbones of the Spartan military was the couples or pairs a line formed by guys who were in a relationship with each other, it was famously difficult to break.



On the other hand, relationships can add vulnerability, hence that ban in modern military organisations on fraternization. Morrigan realises this and it is what she uses to get her way with the DR. To blackmail people using their own best feelings against them, that is evil.