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Sex and your character's morality


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#76
Corker

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old book wrote...
With the HN-Iona path, it's entirely casual. They can have no real future together, not even if they started an affair. She works for another family, and seems happy enough with them; she's not angling for a new job. If a child did result, its early life would be incredibly tough. A noble bastard without a mother if Iona gave it to your character (who'd then have to ask his family to place it to be raised), or a human child raised in an alienage. Best case scenario would be placing the bastard in Iona's household and never letting it know that Iona was its mother. I'd say it's irresponsible to sleep with her if not immoral; on the other hand, the HN is young, and Iona is pretty and wants him (or her). It's tough in those circumstances to think of the future or say no.


The power imbalance there creeped me out.  I couldn't even bring myself to pry into her personal life - it felt too much like making the bear dance.  "Hey, I'm curious, so I demand that you trot out your painful family issues for my edification, and you can't say no because I'm a noble and you're a servant."  Asking her to bed would have been worse.

#77
Arttis

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iona has a kid if you did pry and she is single.

#78
Tirigon

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Corker wrote...

The power imbalance there creeped me out.  I couldn't even bring myself to pry into her personal life - it felt too much like making the bear dance.  "Hey, I'm curious, so I demand that you trot out your painful family issues for my edification, and you can't say no because I'm a noble and you're a servant."  Asking her to bed would have been worse.


My HNF slept with her because she wanted to get to know her, and if Iona had not been killed she would have married her. Provided she would have agreed, of course. But I think she would, she seemed to like my PC quite much:wub:

#79
Avilia

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Corker wrote...

old book wrote...
With the HN-Iona path, it's entirely casual. They can have no real future together, not even if they started an affair. She works for another family, and seems happy enough with them; she's not angling for a new job. If a child did result, its early life would be incredibly tough. A noble bastard without a mother if Iona gave it to your character (who'd then have to ask his family to place it to be raised), or a human child raised in an alienage. Best case scenario would be placing the bastard in Iona's household and never letting it know that Iona was its mother. I'd say it's irresponsible to sleep with her if not immoral; on the other hand, the HN is young, and Iona is pretty and wants him (or her). It's tough in those circumstances to think of the future or say no.


The power imbalance there creeped me out.  I couldn't even bring myself to pry into her personal life - it felt too much like making the bear dance.  "Hey, I'm curious, so I demand that you trot out your painful family issues for my edification, and you can't say no because I'm a noble and you're a servant."  Asking her to bed would have been worse.


Ditto for me. When I decide to enjoy some happy time during the origin its always with Dairren.  I always feel that even if Iona is interested she may feel she can't say no.  That gives me the bad feelings.

#80
Arrtis

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I think she likes you.

When you talk to your mother and you say near the end of the convo that you are interested in talking to her later.It becomes very easy to get her to come to your room.

While if you say anything else it requires more talking for her to feel comfortable enough to want to come to your room.

It also takes a bit more talking if your female.

As a male i say i wanna talk to her then say she is very pretty then she is ready to join me.

As female it takes a bit of getting to know her.

I am not sure if she can say no or if the option to invite her doesnt appear till she likes you enough.One of the two is correct.

#81
maxernst

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Daewan wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Well, okay, if women were really that freely available, why was prostitution so much more common in the past? My point was that in medieval societies, prostitution was far more widespread and accepted than it is today (in Western societies)...and we don't see any evidence that frequenting prostitutes is viewed negatively in Ferelden.

Your point that the status of women is obviously much better in Ferelden than in real medieval societies is correct, but that would make modern moral codes more applicable rather than less.


You know, if you really believe that to be true, you must live under a rock.  Or not read the back page of certain newspapers.  Or certain sections of Craigslist.


If you don't believe that, you must have never looked at the historical records.  According to Lynne Lawner (Lives of the Courtesans:  Portraits of ther Renaissance", in 1490, Rome had 6,800 prostitutes in a population of 50,000.  Admittedly, Rome was an extreme example (because of its high male/female ratio and so many supposedly celibate men), but that's an extraordinary number.  And Rome had an unusual number of people visiting from out of town.  
Diana Robin (Courtesans, celebrity and print culture in Renaissance Venice) quotes a source indicating nearly 12,000 prostiutes in Venice out of a population of 100,000, perhaps 150,000.

Even in the hostile climate of Victorina England, Judity Walkovitz estimates that an average 19th century city would have one prostitute for every 36 people...one for each twelve adult males. 

Compare the famous sex destimation Amsterdam--the statistics I've seen estimate only 18,000 prostitutes in the entire Netherlands...even if you assume they're all in Amsterdam, you'd still have to double that number to get to an average 19th century city.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern city to get nowhere close to the numbers from Renaissance Italy.  Societies where women have greater personal freedom have far less prostitution.  Single women in modern western societies have far more opportunities to support themselves in other ways.  Now, as I said, Ferelden's a bit different because women have much higher status than they did on earth historically. 

#82
Arrtis

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I never saw the problem with prostitutes myself,and i have never visited one.

Seems to me its just a job and a service they can provide that people want.This has yet to change.

#83
Loerwyn

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Well, my characters take after me in some regards, with "courtesans" being a good example. I support the existence of places like the Pearl, and I had no qualms about my characters ever utilising the services there. Admittedly, I never really did it for an IC reason, just to hear some of the really silly phrases and situations ("Do you want to look at me ditties?" makes me laugh).
As for romance, I do and don't agree. It can go two ways - It's a benefit or detrimental. If it's beneficial then the involved characters won't just fight for their cause - they'll fight for each other. Love can be a very, very powerful feeling and if your characters can combine it with their duty then I don't see how that's bad. It only becomes a problem if your character lets the love blind them to their own duty and the task at hand (Yes, Richard Cypher, I'm looking at you). 
Your character's lover can give them the support they need in the way only a partner can (no, I don't mean just sex) and I think that can often be important. Not to mention that people often react to stress in odd ways. Your character could use sex as a release from the stresses of trying to save the world and many people, and it could bring them together with someone.

#84
Giggles_Manically

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My Mage releaves his stress by blowing things up, quite cathartic to be honest.

#85
Kenrae

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Rendar666 wrote...

Patriciachr34 wrote...

Just a thought on the morality of The Pearl, I read a book a couple of years ago about medieval prostitution. The book was a history of church sponsored prostitution in France. If I remember correctly, the churches take on it was that it was better for men to seek out the company of these women rather than to let their bestial nature get the better of them and cause them to do violence to those around them. Rape gangs were not uncommon at this time. So, bath houses and such were seen as a social necessity and therefore not considered "sin". The morality of prostitution was never an issue. It was not uncommon for the priests to visit these establishments as well. It's just something to consider.



For one thing, this is messed up on so many levels it isn't even funny. No REAL man needs to go rape a woman because he hasn't gotten it on in months. I mean, "Their Bestial Nature". What the **** is this? Am I an animal now who cannot contol his actions? I mean, seriously. How many normal men have you seen go rape a woman because he couldn't get some? WTF kinda **** is this? This makes me sick. I don't care if it's simply you speaking how it was back then, it's bull**** and I am truly offended.

Sorry for the douche-bag-ery in advance. But this is offensive. Honestly.


Sorry to be so honest, but that's quite normal in wars, unfortunately. Everyone can be brutal under the right conditions. And yes, we're animals, last time I checked I wasn't a plant.

#86
Shadedclan

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I say get laid when ever possible. You know you want to. Everyone has different views but we are all tempted so why not give in and please yourself?

#87
old book

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Corker wrote...

old book wrote...
With the HN-Iona path, it's entirely casual. They can have no real future together, not even if they started an affair. She works for another family, and seems happy enough with them; she's not angling for a new job. If a child did result, its early life would be incredibly tough. A noble bastard without a mother if Iona gave it to your character (who'd then have to ask his family to place it to be raised), or a human child raised in an alienage. Best case scenario would be placing the bastard in Iona's household and never letting it know that Iona was its mother. I'd say it's irresponsible to sleep with her if not immoral; on the other hand, the HN is young, and Iona is pretty and wants him (or her). It's tough in those circumstances to think of the future or say no.


The power imbalance there creeped me out.  I couldn't even bring myself to pry into her personal life - it felt too much like making the bear dance.  "Hey, I'm curious, so I demand that you trot out your painful family issues for my edification, and you can't say no because I'm a noble and you're a servant."  Asking her to bed would have been worse.


I agree that the power imbalance was pretty creepy for me as well. Somewhat moderated because she does have a crush on your character, but your character would still be sleeping with someone who is in no position to say "No". Is the Human Noble a good person, who would never abuse his/her power, but genuinely finds Iona attractive? Does that make it less creepy if true? Does the fact that the Human Noble probably can never offer Iona a real commitment make it worse, or is a romance enough? Is a roll in the hay with a cute serving girl morally neutral in the setting? In the real world?

Does the age of the character make a difference? A teen or young twenty something may not see things the same way an older person might.

So many interesting moral grey areas in this game.

As to in-party romance, my own opinion is that workplace romances happen, and that romances in stressful situations happen. Love is a stimulant, literally. It brings energy, creativity, and motivation. A painful breakup is devestating, distraction is real and loyalties can be divided, but in the Warden's situation I think the arguments for being a duty driven robot are a load of dingoes kidneys. The strength love can give outweighs the risk.

#88
Rendar666

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Kenrae wrote...

Rendar666 wrote...

Patriciachr34 wrote...

Just a thought on the morality of The Pearl, I read a book a couple of years ago about medieval prostitution. The book was a history of church sponsored prostitution in France. If I remember correctly, the churches take on it was that it was better for men to seek out the company of these women rather than to let their bestial nature get the better of them and cause them to do violence to those around them. Rape gangs were not uncommon at this time. So, bath houses and such were seen as a social necessity and therefore not considered "sin". The morality of prostitution was never an issue. It was not uncommon for the priests to visit these establishments as well. It's just something to consider.



For one thing, this is messed up on so many levels it isn't even funny. No REAL man needs to go rape a woman because he hasn't gotten it on in months. I mean, "Their Bestial Nature". What the **** is this? Am I an animal now who cannot contol his actions? I mean, seriously. How many normal men have you seen go rape a woman because he couldn't get some? WTF kinda **** is this? This makes me sick. I don't care if it's simply you speaking how it was back then, it's bull**** and I am truly offended.

Sorry for the douche-bag-ery in advance. But this is offensive. Honestly.


Sorry to be so honest, but that's quite normal in wars, unfortunately. Everyone can be brutal under the right conditions. And yes, we're animals, last time I checked I wasn't a plant.




Your glibness does you no credit. I know humans are animals. I am saying that people always have a choice. I wasn’t offended by the simple recounting of history, but because it sounded as if you agreed with what you were saying (Men are beastly, evil things who rape women all the time-- every man would rape a woman if he couldn’t have sex. That’s what it sounded like you were saying to me. But what about the “bestial nature” of women? No one ever likes to talk about that because they might make the women seem less lady-like.)
I’m sick of being portrayed as some kind of monster for something I have, and never will, do. You people talk about this stuff so casually and as if everyone does it. It’s not even funny.

.
Let us analyze this little bit of info: 1 in 6 women in Africa are raped. That is a lot of people, an astounding number. About 83 million people. That means that 1/6th of men, approx, have and would rape women. That is also about 83 million people. That, however terrible the number, is not a 4th of the population. That means that while 83 million men approximately have and would rape women, another 420-430 million men have not raped women. When you look at the fact that Africa is full of gangs, violence and hate this is understandable. It’s a terrible thing and it sickens me, but it isn’t as if every man in Africa is running around raping women. These numbers aren’t perfect, or even correct.

.
As of 2009 approximately 307,006,550 lived in the United States (not counting illegal immigrants.) So, about 150,000,000 women live in the United States. A much smaller percentage of women have been raped. A much, much smaller percentage. About 17 million women have been raped (so far as I know) in American since I don’t know. 68 thousand women were raped from 2004-2006 (I believe) in America out of the total population of women = 150,000,000. Meaning that men, 68,000+ have and would rape women. That percentage is so much smaller than in Africa. Some of the percentage is actually illegal immigrants, those who ran from their own country because of crimes committed there.

However, in Canada the numbers are almost non-existent.
..
So all of you people who are making it seem as if this is a normal thing that normal men do: It’s not. And I’m sick of being portrayed as a monster who would rape someone because of my gender.

So shut the hell up.

Modifié par Rendar666, 07 juin 2010 - 05:06 .


#89
Arrtis

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you know one person can rape 80 million women if they dedicated thier life to it....although seeing a person get away with it would be the more outstanding thing.well maybe not 80 million...

#90
Shacary

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I agree with the notion that spending 1-2 years with s omeone, cooking, bathing, fighting and supporting each other, thru wounds thru emotional regrets etc etc, one must have some feeling or love for them. Even if I start out being dalish despising humans for their historical actions, in that time together,, sooner or later i start thinking of them as friends. and more. MY first few play throughs i did not like Morrigan or sten at all, and I was so annoyed with wynne. But then in RP I figured we had to s erve watch some times together etc etc, What u think peeps wouldnt talk during watch? Of course we would, human beings are social creatures.

So i started talking to the characters and I developed a " rp" personal bond with the characters, all of them, Each unique and precious with flaws, and perfection. Wynne says i had been away from the tower for a year, that means that i have spent all my free life [ as a mage] with these same people.... and still journey onward with them.

How could u not love them in some way. As for physical comfort, [ sex too] we crave love as human beings, we crave compassion and tender moments. All these moments would be worth double to a warden daily enduring life and death. Valued , in other words more highly than say even modern couples do, since we often take them for granted.

Maybe Love wont last thru the quest to defeat the archdemon/blight, but it is well worth the journey!




#91
maxernst

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[quote]Rendar666 wrote...

[quote]Patriciachr34 wrote...

Just a thought on the morality of The Pearl, I read a book a couple of years ago about medieval prostitution. The book was a history of church sponsored prostitution in France. If I remember correctly, the churches take on it was that it was better for men to seek out the company of these women rather than to let their bestial nature get the better of them and cause them to do violence to those around them. Rape gangs were not uncommon at this time. So, bath houses and such were seen as a social necessity and therefore not considered "sin". The morality of prostitution was never an issue. It was not uncommon for the priests to visit these establishments as well. It's just something to consider.[/quote]


For one thing, this is messed up on so many levels it isn't even funny. No REAL man needs to go rape a woman because he hasn't gotten it on in months. I mean, "Their Bestial Nature". What the **** is this? Am I an animal now who cannot contol his actions? I mean, seriously. How many normal men have you seen go rape a woman because he couldn't get some? WTF kinda **** is this? This makes me sick. I don't care if it's simply you speaking how it was back then, it's bull**** and I am truly offended.

Sorry for the douche-bag-ery in advance. But this is offensive. Honestly.[/quote]
[/quote]

Sorry, but Patriciacr34 is quite accurate on the views of the medieval church and (given the overall feel of Thedas), it doesn't seem like an unreasonable point of view in the game.  And as far as bestial nature, have you never heard of original sin?  The Church was incorrect from a modern psychology point of view (rape is typically viewed as an expression of power rather than sex by psychologists), but that's neither here nor there...the fact remains that prostitution was tolerated in medieval Europe and is tolerated in most traditional societies.

The reality is that anyone who studies history knows that rape is widespread during warfare, though I am guessing (from a modern psych point of view) that may have more to do with the desire to further humiliate a subjugated population than a sexual outlet.  I've read that the Vikings sometimes raped men they had defeated on the battlefield as well. 

Modifié par maxernst, 07 juin 2010 - 08:52 .


#92
Giggles_Manically

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Love makes the world go round folks!



Cant stop the love train!

#93
Arttis

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

Love makes the world go round folks!

Cant stop the love train!

Of course we can.
Engineer a new very infectious STD that causes much pain while making love.
Then we can stop people!:blink:

#94
Giggles_Manically

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That wont stop some of the people I know.

#95
Nu-Nu

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Time-wise in the game it takes up to a year to reach the end so if you ignored any romance then you're either cold hearted, a prude or fit perfectly for the role as a nun. Even if you managed to put aside any feelings, can soemone real really put it aside for that long?



We all know the stories of heroes pushing others away for the greater good but it never last long and they become a better fighter when they have someone precious to fight for and the person precious doesn't have to be a lover, could be a child (your own or see as your own), family, friends, etc.



Most stories play out that love makes us stronger and give us something to live for and fight for.



Someone only concerntrating on duty and ignoring all romance, even for a brief period, just seems unrealistic. Someone who really cares about people would fall in love, be extremely unsure but let themselves give in eventually and if duty really calls for it, finish the relationship later on.



Unless you're cold hearted which makes you a rubbish hero because do you really care? I think it be impossible to stop yourself from falling in love because you can't think not to do it, it happens, it's not logical.

#96
Giggles_Manically

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My only charachter who didnt romance anyone was my first Dwarf Noble, but that was because he wasnt interested in humans or elves. PLus he was plotting his return to power.



I like the romance aspect in Bioware games because it adds to the story in a good and deep way, while in games like FF13 its just so badly done.



But there are always people who dont like the romance in the games, but they dont really count.

#97
Nu-Nu

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The romance definitely adds to the character, not take away from the character you play.  I liked fable 2 romance, nowhere near as in depth or as awesome as dragon age but I liked you have the option of a family home and children, and the condoms in fable 2 were an excellent, funny touch Image IPB

A combo of DA's and fable's ideas would be awesome. 

I can't even finish ff13...the series has gotten so bad...

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 09 juin 2010 - 03:58 .


#98
Jestina

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Well I think most nobility in both European and Asian cultures were quite promiscuous. They had mistresses, courtesans and so on. Very few were monogamous.

#99
RobotXYZ

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Whatever two consenting set of pixels as mutually agreed as enjoyable to the organic life form creating them... so long as it doesn't create pyschological stress (such as wanking to pictures of Morrigan's cleavage) is ok with me :)

Ok I'll give a more serious answer.  You are the author of your fantasy.  If you are the Author of King Arthur and his Knights then Lancelot sleeping with guivere is immoral and a big emotional catastrophe for him.  If you are in 'the Witcher' fantasy world then the cavalier sleeping with the ladies is ok.  Same with James Bond..

Modifié par RobotXYZ, 10 juin 2010 - 12:22 .


#100
Jallard

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Here's my take on it all:



In real life, if some woman like Liliana, who I have been around for some time and have gotten to know well enough personally, were to approach me and invite me to her tent I am certainly not going to say,



No thanks I am on duty." I am no Alister.



I am going to jump on it and dive in. And, that goes for Morrigan too. Besides, like RobotXYZ says, "It's my fantasy."