3478 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Wildecker wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
Then you should always save the collector base. It is not a decision you should be making there on the spot. First you wipe out the collectors, then you decide wether you want to hand over the base to tim. so many irational implusive people destroy it on the spot or metagame it. its quite sad.

On the spot. You are pretty confident that you can overlaod the base power plant for a devastating explosion.
But somehow Mr. TIM thinks that the very same powerplant can be set to not explode but instead send out a pulse of lethal radiation that is guaranteed to wipe out the Collectors while leaving their stuff and their databases behind, unharmed and ready to use.

When exactly did he learn so much about Collector technology and physiology?
Or is this just an "educated guess" derived from wishful thinking?

Probably the same way Shepard knew how to blow the place up in the first place.  Can't remember if it's stated in the game explicitly but I'm guessing everything Shepard knows about how to make the place go boom comes from EDI, who could have easily worked out that a radiation pulse could be generated but at that point Shepard's objective is to destroy the base, so she doesn't mention it.  TIM brings it up because it's a viable alternative with considerable advantages.

Wildecker wrote...
Returning to that base on the assumption it's cleansed and secure and then finding yourself at the business end of a few thousand Collector assault rifles, with the last words in your earpiece an "Oops. This  should have worked out differently!" from TIM ... yeah, we did a good job.

Yes because it's not like you've slaughtered countless hordes of the things already.  You notice how Shepard didn't go into the Collector vessel or the Derelict Reaper completely helpless, same idea.  The place should be clean, but unless Shepard OD's on stupid that morning they're unlikely to count on should.

[Arbiter156]

Answer: paragon points, satisfying explosion and it says F*** You! To the illusive man.

[GifMike]

TIM just seemed like the head of the clan to me. I liked the idea of sticking it to him. I would have loved more choices. I never felt like the Normandy was mine. I would have ditched Cerberus and gone back to the Alliance early on if I'd had the choice.  It would have been nice if I could make the collector station my own personal base of operations from then on.

Modifié par GifMike, 06 juin 2010 - 04:17 .

[JaegerBane]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

I agree with the overall sentiment on here - keeping the base brings with it a host of horrible risks for simple benefit that you 'might' figure out how to use the tech to help against the Reapers.

Ignoring facts like Illusive Man not being fit to hold the responsibility of exploting this tech safely and that the history of experiments with Reaper tech is effectively one long list of catastrophic failures, ultimately, the Reapers have enormous numbers and familarity with the tech to count upon.

If the races of the galaxy are to successfully end the Reaper threat, they are not going to do it by out-teching the Reapers. What good is building a single Reaper, even assuming you can control it, when you have thousands of Reapers coming at you?

[JaegerBane]

Shandepared wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Using technology against creators of such technology is really "brilliant" idea...

Yeah the Sioux felt really silly when they tried using muskets on the white man only to discover he was immune to bullets.

You've taken his post out of context. Muskets do not have a habit of emanting mind control, creating space zombies or generating kilometre long killing machines. Nor are they a product of intelligences millenia ahead in terms of technical advancement, with none of the potential issues that come baggaged with it.

[Pacifien]

It's not like there isn't a broken up Reaper that can't be studied out there. Other than the fact no one knows who has what pieces and no one is working together. I wonder who got the part of Sovereign that indoctrinates. Unlucky bastards.

Modifié par Pacifien, 06 juin 2010 - 05:08 .

[Ieldra]

JaegerBane wrote...
If the races of the galaxy are to successfully end the Reaper threat, they are not going to do it by out-teching the Reapers. What good is building a single Reaper, even assuming you can control it, when you have thousands of Reapers coming at you?

You are assuming that all you can do with the base is build new Reapers. Were that the case, I'd destroy it in an instant, just as I'd destroy any conventional enemy's weapons factories. But new technology is not like that. Here's an analogy: if, knowing nothing about it beforehand, you find a nuclear bomb and successfully decipher the principles on which it's built, you will come to know that there is such a thing as radiation that you need to protect against. Translated to the ME universe: once you understand how (for instance) indoctrination works, you have a better chance of finding something that protects you against it.

Yes, there's the chance that Reaper tech is so advanced we can't understand it in time to do any good, but on the other side, no one has any idea how to do something against a Reaper unless it's so stupid as to manifest in a dead turian body so it can be killed more easily. There is a need to decipher their technology, a desperate need. If the price is letting TIM having it exclusively - which won't last - then so be it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juin 2010 - 05:22 .

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...


You've taken his post out of context.

No I haven't. His post really is that backwards and stupid.

We've been here before. But I still point out that a Maori tribe that conquered a shipyard with a half-built ship of the line could have studied that object for years without learning to outfight a regular navy in battle on the high seas.

Modifié par Wildecker, 06 juin 2010 - 05:45 .

[Heather Cline]

I destroyed it because I didn't trust the Illusive Man and frankly didn't want him to have all that kind of power. Plus it was fun telling him to pretty much f*** off.

[Asheer_Khan]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

We've been here before. But I still point out that a Maori tribe that conquered a shipyard with a half-built ship of the line could have studied that object for years without learning to outfight a regular navy in battle on the high seas.

We've already proven that we can re-adapt their technology and use it successfully against them.

-TANIX CANNON.

Sorry but util i will see how those guns works against FULLY FUNCTIONAL reaper ship not based on reaper tech  Collector ship i wouldn't call that as successfull using reaper tech since you can destroyed that cruiser using raw
Normandy guns (for life price of one of the sqad mates).

- EDI.

I trust her but there is still that spark of possibility that there is some sort "Order 66" deep inside her subprograming which can be activated by Reapers in apex of the fight.

Prothean scientists which studied Reapers learn practicly NOTHING about them except how to block thier comunication whit keepers to prevent another remote opening of the Citadel relay and you assuming that far more primitive than Protheans humanity will be able to crack reapers tech secrets?

In other circumstances i would call that naive optimism... but something tells me that Mass Effect 3 will be absolute canon example of ID 4 syndrome (humanity always win no matter how bad odds are and how powerful enemy is) plagued human related SF universe.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 06 juin 2010 - 06:29 .

[JaegerBane]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You are assuming that all you can do with the base is build new Reapers. Were that the case, I'd destroy it in an instant, just as I'd destroy any conventional enemy's weapons factories. But new technology is not like that. Here's an analogy: if, knowing nothing about it beforehand, you find a nuclear bomb and successfully decipher the principles on which it's built, you will come to know that there is such a thing as radiation that you need to protect against. Translated to the ME universe: once you understand how (for instance) indoctrination works, you have a better chance of finding something that protects you against it.

Yes, there's the chance that Reaper tech is so advanced we can't understand it in time to do any good, but on the other side, no one has any idea how to do something against a Reaper unless it's so stupid as to manifest in a dead turian body so it can be killed more easily. There is a need to decipher their technology, a desperate need. If the price is letting TIM having it exclusively - which won't last - then so be it.

I can understand your point, but respectfully, the analogy doesn't take into account the fact that reverse engineering a nuclear bomb with no understanding of particle physics and electronics in such way that it doesn't go off in your face is patently ridiculous. In a similar fashion, particularly with somone like TIM at the helm, along with his penchant for discarding safeguards and common sense when things aren't going to schedule, reverse engineering the Collector base isn't something I necessarily disagree with - just the idea of doing it under TIM's supervision with the current track record of exploting reaper tech.

You're also making an assumption that, as you say, we figure out how to exploit in such a way that will produce some tangible benefit by the time the Reapers arrive. There has been countless species over the last several million years who tried the same tactic, and used tech derived from Reaper tech to fight the Reapers. Currently, the success rate sits at a flat zero, and some of the species who tried it were well ahead of the current galactic community's tech level. Hell, one of our predecessors built a mass accelerator large enough to blast a canyon into a planet through a glancing blow... and that only heavily damaged a single reaper.

Ultimately, the idea that we're somehow going to build some big honkin' super tech that saves us is an outmoded idea, the folly of which has been demonstrated by the fact that, as far as we know, no species has ever managed it. So far, the *only* method of dealing with the Reapers that has been proven to work is to exploit their arrogance and do something they're not expecting - something alluded to by Legion in his mention of 'other paths'. Trying to hack together something useful out of the base's stuff is just not realistic, and given TIM's track record, will likely do more harm than good.

[JaegerBane]

Shandepared wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...


You've taken his post out of context.

No I haven't. His post really is that backwards and stupid.

Shand, I can't be bothered about arguing over whether his post was stupid or not - I merely sought to point out that the muskets versus settlers analogy hasn't got the slightest relevance to what he was discussing. I'm not convinced by the order 66 argument either, but conversely the idea that we'd somehow discover the magic book of wtfpwnage with step by step diagrams in the base is optimism to the point of insanity.

I'm with Wildecker on this - having access to the tech doesn't guarantee any real advantage in terms of stopping the Reapers, but does confer very real hazards that could easily work in the Reaper's favour. 

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

We've been here before. But I still point out that a Maori tribe that conquered a shipyard with a half-built ship of the line could have studied that object for years without learning to outfight a regular navy in battle on the high seas.

We've already proven that we can re-adapt their technology and use it successfully against them.

The only Reaper we finished off in ME 2 was far from functional, and the Thanix played no part in that feat at all.
In fact, when you suggest on board of the Derelict Reaper that the Normandy could blast through its shields EDI points out the sillyness of the idea.

The Normandy's armor upgrade is an Asari concept that somehow found its way to the Alliance and then, via a few old buddies, to Jacob Taylor.
The Normandy's improved shields are a Quarian design.
The Turian Thanix was inspired by observations of Sovereign dealing death left and right. A high-speed jetstream of liquid metal? How oldschool ... that principle has been in use in WW II as HEAT (High Energy Anti-Tank), made portable RPG into feared Tankbusters - and was made useless with the introduction of first "Blazer" reactive armor plates and then improved alloy armor.
For EDI, TIM's people sifted through the parts of wreckage they could acquire for computing hardware that looked more or less intact, tried to connect them into something useful and created EDI. It's probably the same team that will produce the spectacular Overlord DLC failure of a human interface to EDI 2, so we've been really, really lucky.

What's left? The IFF that really screwed us during field-testing? Thank God we weren't around when that happened, or it would have been Joker's turn to recruit Team Verner and go after us ...

Modifié par Wildecker, 06 juin 2010 - 07:09 .

[Vaenier]

Does every single bolt in a Reaper produce indoctrination? Why are people acting like just being around the word Reaper will turn them into zombies...

[Vaenier]

This argument is going nowhere. We are trying to argue with fictional facts and lies. There is no consistency in the story, no way to compare evidence.

Its like they said: A > B. B > C. C > A. and we are going around trying to argue which really is greater...

[Dean_the_Young]

The game given frame of reference for the time leap in technology between the present and the collector base is the same as from before the prothean data cache to the present. That allowed a revolutionary jump in a matter of months and years: given that element zero was an entirely new concept of technology to master and that we've also been able to adapt various Reaper technologies, arguments that reverse engineering the Collector Base is impossible and worthless argue against the prior history and themes of the cannon.

[Sereaph502]

Because I don't like the Illusive Man?



Because he wants humans to be the dominant race lording over all other alien species?



Because he's a huge racist?



Because he wants himself at the head of the human race?



Because keeping the collector base would have us walking right into the Reaper's trap?



Because I don't like how the production of a reaper works?



There are countless reasons why.

[Panda Warlock]

Vaenier wrote...

This argument is going nowhere. We are trying to argue with fictional facts and lies. There is no consistency in the story, no way to compare evidence.

Ooh, we got a smart one here... Well, since when people stop doing something simply because it's pointless? It seems they have nothing better to do, so just let everyone have their fun


And since I feel like doing something pointless...

As I mentioned in other thread:

Panda Warlock wrote...
I personally don't think keeping the base gives that much of an edge. Let's assume base has no traps or indoctrination devices. How long will it take to properly examine and study tech that we can find there? Couple of years? Single year maybe? Does galaxy have that much time? And even after the technology is cracked, there is still long time before proper defences are constructed in numbers big enough to make a difference. I know, the Thanix cannon was based more or less on Reaper tech. But it took 2 years (ok, maybe bit less) to actually make it. And it is still nowhere near the power of actual Reaper gun. And still, Reapers have much more experience in
using their tech. Know all its weaknesses and strenghts. I feel like using the base would be simmilar to some ******-poor, anachronic army stealing a tank from advanced and well-equipped forces. It doesn't really make their chances great. They are not going to win a war thanks to that tank. But they CAN deal a lot of damage, if they use their brains and their own tricks, instead of ones of their enemies. Make the advanced army fight on their territory and terms. Surprise enemy with tactics that are unknown to them.

Just my thoughts.

Collector Base does not guarantee anything. It gives possibility for both being useful and harmful (and I don't mean this only in "explode in your face" way of harm). I can see both choises to be defendable and neither stupid. It is just a matter of your own preferences. So yeah, I chose saving and destroying on my playthroughts, depending on which mood I had at the moment.

Modifié par Panda Warlock, 06 juin 2010 - 07:39 .

[Spartas Husky]

Like, discovering the cure to all diseases is a nano machine based virus......if you had the choice to give the nano based cure machine virus to Putin....or destroy it.....



Like the old saying goes... you have no idea which is better, the current disease or the new cure.



So like another saying goes. better the hell you know than the hell you dont know.

[xmatt9736]

I kept the Collector Base in all of it's glory because the universe that I want to create has humans as the dominate species with Shepard leading the charge. I know TIM and Cerberus are cold blooded alphas that will cut you so fast you don't even bleed, and I'm ok with that. My Shepard wants to be a part of that. He has a glowing red terminator face. He sexed up Jack in the bowels of The Normandy, broke Tali's heart, then sexed up Miranda and has her for keeps. After Shep and TIM use all that new found tech to give the Reaper fleet a strong pimphand, they will light up stogies together and sip Jack Daniels while laughing and watching the orange star thing outside of TIMs sundeck. They will be served hand and foot by the now subserviant Turians and Asari, and Miranda will be laying out by the pool in a thong. The Mass Effect Triliogy will have been enjoyed 100% to my satisfaction. Bow down to the Human dominion!!

[JaegerBane]

Shandepared wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm with Wildecker on this - having access to the tech doesn't guarantee any real advantage in terms of stopping the Reapers, but does confer very real hazards that could easily work in the Reaper's favour. 

You've got it completely backwards.

True that the Collector base does not guarantee any benefits, but it offers the possiblity. What it offers is knowledge. How it is going to be applied I can't predict.

Destroying the base offers you nothing.

Destroying the base ensures that the one opportunity the Reapers had to pull off a mass movement directly into the galaxy is no more. I hardly think that qualifies as 'nothing', since the same tactic had the useful side affect of preserving the entirety of galactic civilisation the last time it was employed. Of course, it also ensures that TIM's slapdash approach to research isn't given a proverbial powder keg.

Granted, destroying is quite admittedly overkill, but under the circumstances Shep doesn't have many options. He either destroys it, or hands it over to the raving control freak who no-one should trust with a potato gun, let alone a base capable of manufacturing Reapers. Shep would be taking a risk that would border on the insane by handing over such a technical base to someone as dubious as TIM - and that's assuming that the base offers knowledge, as you assume. It actually only offers tech, whether Cerberus's technical expertise is of a sufficient level to gain anything from it is something else entirely.

I must admit I'm rather surprised you're still clinging to this concept of resorting to the extremes based on little more than sheer possibility. The last time I heard you mention it you were advocating rachni genocide on the off chance the queen destroys civilisation, and in light of what we found out on Illium, we all can see how wise a decision that would have been.

[Vaenier]

Why is there no option to use TIM like a puppet, letting him kill the Reapers, before you take it back from him and give him a firm handshake as a reward for saving the galaxy?