3478 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

anmiro wrote...

I think that at the core of all the important Renegade and Paragon choices through both ME1 and ME2 are the same basic questions, "Do you consider the other alien races to be your allies or can humanity achieve victory on it's own? And, are you willing to sacrifice your own humanity for the sake of victory?"

I chose to destroy the base for the same reason that I chose to save the Council. I don't believe that humanity can defeat the Reapers on their own. I believe the only way to defeat the reapers is to unite the different races of the galaxy and to form a unified front against the coming invasion (which is where I believe the Paragon story is headed.) I think that handing over a weapon of mass destruction to TIM, who's goal of securing human dominance in the galaxy is second only to defeating the Reapers, would severely undermine my goals.

TIMmys goal of human supremacy seems like a typical backfiring Cerberus plan to me. At best such a outdated megalomania would make humanity isolated like the batarians. What would be best for humanity is to get many strong allies and for that Cerberus is a liability. They need to be removed for humanitys best. Shepard can think whatever s/he want about the aliens but the fact is that s/he have a better chance of survival if they point their guns at the reapers instead of against him/her. But it would be harder to convince the aliens of anything if you just gave a very dangerous base to the terrorist organisation known for spectactular failiures and human dominance as their main agenda.

On the other hand the unexploded base might not still be a threat to all humans everywhere. It might contain something usefull. That is however just wishfull thinking as Shepard, TIMmy and Cerberus knows basicaly nothing about the base.

[CR - Crono]

just finished 2nd pt, I kept the base just to see what TIM is going to do with it , something fishy probably but if someone can stop its Shepard.

just more things to make explode in the 3rd game and a more interesting outcome

Modifié par CR - Crono, 31 août 2010 - 12:35 .

[UNAVAILABLE]

Reasons for destroying the Collector base.

Gaming Reason: Having multiple characters with different decisions allows me to see the different outcomes in ME3.

Military/Strategic Reason: There is no practical way to hold the base. The Normandy is the only ship that can pass through the Omega 4 relay. How is Cerberus planning to get fleets of researchers and military support there to repel any possible counterattack and study the thing? Not to mention that Reaper-tech has a nasty habit of enslaving the minds of folk who try to study it, and there's no telling how much of the base is active Reaper-tech. Even if the logistical troop/scientist movements could be resolved, the question would remain: is the base is a tool of Cerberus or do the Reapers control Cerberus through the base.

Ethical Reason: Cerberus is backed by "private wealthy investors". That's basically like the hedge fund managers and Wall Street scum that are bankrupting this country now. Would you really give *them* the next best thing to the Death Star?

Miscellaneous Reason: Shepard was still a little upset with the Illusive man for sending her into a trap.

[Sajuro]

The Illusive Man has probably never raised a gun or been on a battlefield, he didn't see what you did on the collector base and to him 60,000 lives ended is a statistic instead of a tragedy.

[didymos1120]

Sajuro wrote...

The Illusive Man has probably never raised a gun or been on a battlefield, he didn't see what you did on the collector base and to him 60,000 lives ended is a statistic instead of a tragedy.

Nope. He uses one to reasonably good effect in Retribution during a turian raid, and thinks to himself how it's a been a long time since he's seen combat.

Also this, from the upcoming Evolution comic:

[Dean_the_Young]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Reasons for destroying the Collector base.

Gaming Reason: Having multiple characters with different decisions allows me to see the different outcomes in ME3.

Military/Strategic Reason: There is no practical way to hold the base. The Normandy is the only ship that can pass through the Omega 4 relay. How is Cerberus planning to get fleets of researchers and military support there to repel any possible counterattack and study the thing?

Quaint, but completely false. The IFF is replecable. In the keep-the-base, all-members-die ending you are even treated to a hologram of cerberus ships arriving at the base.

Not to mention that Reaper-tech has a nasty habit of enslaving the minds of folk who try to study it, and there's no telling how much of the base is active Reaper-tech. Even if the logistical troop/scientist movements could be resolved, the question would remain: is the base is a tool of Cerberus or do the Reapers control Cerberus through the base.

Why does everyone treat indoctrination as some all-consuming unblockable, un-circumventable problem of galactic danger here when it's never been portrayed that way?

Ignore that there were no signs of it in the base: no party members reporting tell-tale signs, no mention of it from EDI during her scans, no implications of any Collector need to have one installed on a base lacking even basic external defenses.

Ignore also that synthetics are completely unaffected, that VI/AI/remote control mechs would be unaffected and could freely traverse the base to turn the thing off. Ignore that limiting exposures by short times and cycling people out regularly would make them as much as risks as Shepard. Heck, ignore that indoctrination is a field effect, and thus by definition has to produce a measurable signal and origin source that could, with looking, be turned off.

Ignore all that. Just remember what Indoctrination actually can and can not do. It can not turn someone against everything they ever loved and wanted to do without reducing their capability to something about as complex as a husk. 'Intelligent' indoctrinated like Saren and Benezia's Asari were already willing actors, and so didn't need as much indoctrination to force them to do things.

If we, once again, ignore the fact that all non-live Reaper indoctrination items we have encountered have simply turned people into husks... the amount of any indoctrination on the base necessary to 'control' Cerberus (even, apparently, those who would never get on the base) would pretty much reduce them only to being as good as husk fodder. Which is not a threat to the galaxy.

Ethical Reason: Cerberus is backed by "private wealthy investors". That's basically like the hedge fund managers and Wall Street scum that are bankrupting this country now. Would you really give *them* the next best thing to the Death Star?

Now you're resorting to class warfare?

Yes, 'them' rich people are so much worse than the Reapers. We must keep the class struggle against the capitalist oppressors, so that we are all the less prepared to struggle against the genocidal alien executioners!

Miscellaneous Reason: Shepard was still a little upset with the Illusive man for sending her into a trap.

Yours was. Mine wasn't so stupid not to recognize a trap in the first place, let alone not see why it was necessary.

[UNAVAILABLE]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Reasons for destroying the Collector base.

Gaming Reason: Having multiple characters with different decisions allows me to see the different outcomes in ME3.

Military/Strategic Reason: There is no practical way to hold the base. The Normandy is the only ship that can pass through the Omega 4 relay. How is Cerberus planning to get fleets of researchers and military support there to repel any possible counterattack and study the thing?[/quote]

Quaint, but completely false. The IFF is replecable. In the keep-the-base, all-members-die ending you are even treated to a hologram of cerberus ships arriving at the base.[/quote]


Just because there is a cut scene, doesn't mean it makes sense. There are story based
reasons to believe that the IFF CANNOT be replaced.
1) If the IFF broadcasts a simple signal, why capture the transmitter? It would be
far simpler to put receivers on a couple of the hazard beacons near the Omega 4 relay
and wait for a Collector ship to pass through. Signal captured. No combat.
2) The Reapers installed a Reaper device on a Collector ship. This suggests that the
Prothean/Collector technology was insufficient to broadcast the required signal type,
thus the Reaper device is absolutely necessary to pass through the relay. This of
course leaves the question of how the Illusive Man intends to mass produce the things.
Furthermore, you did not address the issue of a possible counter attack. How many
Collector bases are in the galactic core? One, A thousand? There's no telling. What
other allies/slaves could the Reapers have there? The success of capturing the base
was largely dependent upon the fact that the Reapers/Collectors considered the Omega 4
Relay to be an unbreakable line of defense. That element of suprise no longer exists,
so if the base were retaken in a counter-attack the defenses would surely be fortified.

[quote]
[quote]
Not to mention that Reaper-tech has a nasty habit of enslaving the minds of folk who try to study it, and there's no telling how much of the base is active Reaper-tech. Even if the logistical troop/scientist movements could be resolved, the question would remain: is the base is a tool of Cerberus or do the Reapers control Cerberus through the base.[/quote]

Why does everyone treat indoctrination as some all-consuming unblockable, un-circumventable problem of galactic danger here when it's never been portrayed that way?

Ignore that there were no signs of it in the base: no party members reporting tell-tale signs, no mention of it from EDI during her scans, no implications of any Collector need to have one installed on a base lacking even basic external defenses.[/quote]

Ignore that there were no signs of it when the party boarded the derelict Reaper to
get the IFF.
No party members reporting tell-tall signs, no mention of it from EDI during her scans.
What's your point?

[quote] . . .no implications of any Collector need to have one installed on a base lacking even
basic external defenses. [/quote]
I don't think the Reapers would give their slaves control over the enslaving technology.
I think it's safe to say that what the Collectors want and need is largely irrelevant.
The fact is that the base was building a Reaper and Reaper's have the indoctrination
ability. Thus, the existence of indoctrination technology aboard the base is implied.


[quote]
Ignore also that synthetics are completely unaffected, that VI/AI/remote control mechs would be unaffected and could freely traverse the base to turn the thing off. Ignore that limiting exposures by short times and cycling people out regularly would make them as much as risks as Shepard. Heck, ignore that indoctrination is a field effect, and thus by definition has to produce a measurable signal and origin source that could, with looking, be turned off.
[/quote]

And ignore the fact that other Reaper tech (Citadel, relays) have been studied for
centuries by multiple races without bringing any of them closer to actually understanding
them. Ignore the possibility that there may well exist forms of energy beyond the EM
spectrum that our sciences have yet to identify much less create devices to detect,
measure, and manipulate, but the Reapers are very comfortable with.

[quote]
Ignore all that. Just remember what Indoctrination actually can and can not do. It can not turn someone against everything they ever loved and wanted to do without reducing their capability to something about as complex as a husk. 'Intelligent' indoctrinated like Saren and Benezia's Asari were already willing actors, and so didn't need as much indoctrination to force them to do things.
[/quote]

Right, and what is to say that The Illusive Man would not become another "willing actor"
once he's given that kind of power?

[quote]
If we, once again, ignore the fact that all non-live Reaper indoctrination items we have encountered have simply turned people into husks... the amount of any indoctrination on the base necessary to 'control' Cerberus (even, apparently, those who would never get on the base) would pretty much reduce them only to being as good as husk fodder. Which is not a threat to the galaxy.
[/quote]

Oh, well that's OK then. As long as its just converting people into mindless husks.
I was worried it might be dangerous.

[quote]
[quote]
Ethical Reason: Cerberus is backed by "private wealthy investors". That's basically like the hedge fund managers and Wall Street scum that are bankrupting this country now. Would you really give *them* the next best thing to the Death Star?[/quote]
Now you're resorting to class warfare?

Yes, 'them' rich people are so much worse than the Reapers. We must keep the class struggle against the capitalist oppressors, so that we are all the less prepared to struggle against the genocidal alien executioners!
[/quote]

I didn't say they're worse. They just tend to look at the rest humanity the same way
the Reapers do, hence I wouldn't give them the most powerful weapon.
 
But let's not get bogged down with details, and look at it from a larger perspective.

1) Humanity needs a weapon to fight the Reapers.
2) This base converts humans (willing or not) into a giant war machine.
3) Your suggesting handing this base over to an elite group with an "end always
justifies the means" approach to problem solving. A group with a history of
experimenting on unwilling subjects, including humans it claims to be
benefitting.
4) The study of Reaper tech as I mentioned above has yielded little results. Most
likely, the best anyone can hope for in the near future is that someone will figure
out how to turn it on (thus resuming human to war machine processes).

I'm curious how you see this as having a good ending.

[quote]
[quote]
Miscellaneous Reason: Shepard was still a little upset with the Illusive man for sending her into a trap.[/quote]
Yours was. Mine wasn't so stupid not to recognize a trap in the first place, let alone not see why it was necessary.
[/quote]

There is no conversation option in the game that allows Shepard to acknowledge the trap
before hand. Also, the Illusive Man is incorrect about not being able to forewarn Shepard.
All he had to do was forward the original distress signal he received when he gave
Shepard the coordinates. EDI would have discovered the trap in advance, and no warning
would have to be communicated over possibly insecure lines.
It does appear, however, that your Shepard lacks the imagination to realize how
dangerous the Reapers can be.

[atheelogos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Reasons for destroying the Collector base.

Gaming Reason: Having multiple characters with different decisions allows me to see the different outcomes in ME3.

Military/Strategic Reason: There is no practical way to hold the base. The Normandy is the only ship that can pass through the Omega 4 relay. How is Cerberus planning to get fleets of researchers and military support there to repel any possible counterattack and study the thing?

Quaint, but completely false. The IFF is replecable. In the keep-the-base, all-members-die ending you are even treated to a hologram of cerberus ships arriving at the base.

Not to mention that Reaper-tech has a nasty habit of enslaving the minds of folk who try to study it, and there's no telling how much of the base is active Reaper-tech. Even if the logistical troop/scientist movements could be resolved, the question would remain: is the base is a tool of Cerberus or do the Reapers control Cerberus through the base.

Why does everyone treat indoctrination as some all-consuming unblockable, un-circumventable problem of galactic danger here when it's never been portrayed that way?

Ignore that there were no signs of it in the base: no party members reporting tell-tale signs, no mention of it from EDI during her scans, no implications of any Collector need to have one installed on a base lacking even basic external defenses.

Ignore also that synthetics are completely unaffected, that VI/AI/remote control mechs would be unaffected and could freely traverse the base to turn the thing off. Ignore that limiting exposures by short times and cycling people out regularly would make them as much as risks as Shepard. Heck, ignore that indoctrination is a field effect, and thus by definition has to produce a measurable signal and origin source that could, with looking, be turned off.

Ignore all that. Just remember what Indoctrination actually can and can not do. It can not turn someone against everything they ever loved and wanted to do without reducing their capability to something about as complex as a husk. 'Intelligent' indoctrinated like Saren and Benezia's Asari were already willing actors, and so didn't need as much indoctrination to force them to do things.

If we, once again, ignore the fact that all non-live Reaper indoctrination items we have encountered have simply turned people into husks... the amount of any indoctrination on the base necessary to 'control' Cerberus (even, apparently, those who would never get on the base) would pretty much reduce them only to being as good as husk fodder. Which is not a threat to the galaxy.

Ethical Reason: Cerberus is backed by "private wealthy investors". That's basically like the hedge fund managers and Wall Street scum that are bankrupting this country now. Would you really give *them* the next best thing to the Death Star?

Now you're resorting to class warfare?

Yes, 'them' rich people are so much worse than the Reapers. We must keep the class struggle against the capitalist oppressors, so that we are all the less prepared to struggle against the genocidal alien executioners!

Miscellaneous Reason: Shepard was still a little upset with the Illusive man for sending her into a trap.

Yours was. Mine wasn't so stupid not to recognize a trap in the first place, let alone not see why it was necessary.

"Yours was. Mine wasn't so stupid not to recognize a trap in the first place, let alone not see why it was necessary." lol good post.

[atheelogos]

UNAVAILABLE wrote...

Reasons for destroying the Collector base.

Gaming Reason: Having multiple characters with different decisions allows me to see the different outcomes in ME3.

Military/Strategic Reason: There is no practical way to hold the base. The Normandy is the only ship that can pass through the Omega 4 relay. How is Cerberus planning to get fleets of researchers and military support there to repel any possible counterattack and study the thing? Not to mention that Reaper-tech has a nasty habit of enslaving the minds of folk who try to study it, and there's no telling how much of the base is active Reaper-tech. Even if the logistical troop/scientist movements could be resolved, the question would remain: is the base is a tool of Cerberus or do the Reapers control Cerberus through the base.

Ethical Reason: Cerberus is backed by "private wealthy investors". That's basically like the hedge fund managers and Wall Street scum that are bankrupting this country now. Would you really give *them* the next best thing to the Death Star?

Miscellaneous Reason: Shepard was still a little upset with the Illusive man for sending her into a trap.

"There is no practical way to hold the base. The Normandy is the only ship that can pass through the Omega 4 relay." What!!????? Just use the same code the Normandy got from the collector base. It shouldn't be too hard.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

didymos1120 wrote...

Is that TIM in a cowboy shirt? with a john wayne hair cut? piccy looks like mixed genres.

[Solaris Paradox]

I don't trust Cerberus. I would rather destroy the Collector Base and take my chances fighting without it than hand something so potentially volatile to the Illusive Man. If I could preserve the technology at the base for the Council or the Alliance to utilize, I would do so. As my only options are "Let Cerberus have the base" and "blow the base to hell and gone," I opt to blow the base to hell and gone.



Not to say I don't have a character on hand who's chanced giving the base to Cerberus, but when even Miranda is unwilling to trust Cerberus with the Collector Base, it gives one pause to consider.

[HeyUder]

I still hold on to the belief that Cerberus merely has ruthless persistence to meet a certain, logical goal. I think TIM is the single most capable person out there next to Shepard. He essentially brought Shepard back to life, people seem to forget that. Don't lie and say the GOALS aren't worthwhile either, people hate on Cerberus because they are so ruthless in their pursuit of their goals. Yet, people also forget that Cerberus is simply FOR humanity, but not racist against aliens.

I honestly think TIM himself is the Reapers' mortal enemy, whom the Reapers have always truly wanted to destroy. He is the reason for the "cycle". (This coincides with my belief that TIM is not human. Protheans and
humans have some sort of direct relationship to be revealed in ME3 I
think)

THAT is the twist, kill TIM to possibly stop the cycle forever (while also destroying life's one "failsafe" against the Reapers in future attacks) OR save him because he saved your own life and also because he is the key to defeating the Reapers in future cycical attacks?

[Sajuro]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Is that TIM in a cowboy shirt? with a john wayne hair cut? piccy looks like mixed genres.

It is Cerberus propaganda, depicting TIM as an larger than life figure

[didymos1120]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
Is that TIM in a cowboy shirt? with a john wayne hair cut? piccy looks like mixed genres.

Why're you asking me?  I didn't draw the thing.  Ask Dark Horse. They're publishing it.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

didymos1120 wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
Is that TIM in a cowboy shirt? with a john wayne hair cut? piccy looks like mixed genres.

Why're you asking me?  I didn't draw the thing.  Ask Dark Horse. They're publishing it.

ah ok, hmph, seen better work from them, but oh well.

[Falcon084]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

In my mind it would be like taking a WWII death camp off Hitler (the Collectors) and giving it to Osama Bin Laden (Illusive Man). I do not trust T.I.M. I'd hand it over to the Alliance with civilian oversite but not him.

[Nightwriter]

You know this always becomes a debate of pro-Cerberus vs. anti-Cerberus.



Pro-Cerberus: Keep the base!



Anti-Cerberus: Blow up the base!

[Falcon084]

Nightwriter wrote...

You know this always becomes a debate of pro-Cerberus vs. anti-Cerberus.

Pro-Cerberus: Keep the base!

Anti-Cerberus: Blow up the base!

What if you believe in Cerberus but not T.I.M?
I would love it if Shepard were to take his place/

[Nightwriter]

TIM is Cerberus.

[Falcon084]

Nightwriter wrote...

TIM is Cerberus.

Organisations change hands all the time.

[Nightwriter]

Not this one. If it got new leadership, it would be the first time.



Cerberus has been permanently tainted by the Illusive Man's leadership. It will always be a shady terrorist organization. Better to tear it down and start a new organization that does the human interests movement right.

[Kaiser Shepard]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Is that TIM in a cowboy shirt? with a john wayne hair cut? piccy looks like mixed genres.

Take my love, take my land.
Take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free.
You can't take Shanxi from me.

Edit: Also:

There's no place I can't be, since I found Humanity.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:53 .

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...

You know this always becomes a debate of pro-Cerberus vs. anti-Cerberus.

Pro-Cerberus: Keep the base!

Anti-Cerberus: Blow up the base!

I can assure you it has little to do with being for or against Cerberus; though keeping the base is definitely a more pro-Cerberus choice.

I would agree, that those that blow up the base do it primarily because of TIM.

[Xilizhra]

Increasing Cerberus' power in any way is a mistake; not necessarily because of what Cerberus could accomplish, but because of simple psychology. Whether TIM is a megalomaniac or not isn't as relevant as the fact that Cerberus is a widely loathed humanocentric organization; if it got its hands on Collector technology and it ever became known that Shepard helped Cerberus get that, it'd make the public opinion of humanity plummet. Of course, if you're a Renegade who wants humans to rule the universe, this may be just what you want; my Paragon thinks that an interspecies coalition of all sapient life in the galaxy is the best way to defeat the Reapers. The heretic geth have been rewritten, the rachni are back, the quarians have been turned away from war, the genophage might be cured... a single faction with advanced technology can't match galactic unity against the Reapers, especially when that faction's presence would lead to galactic separation.

[UNAVAILABLE]

atheelogos wrote...

There is no practical way to hold the base. The Normandy is the only ship that can pass through the Omega 4 relay." What!!????? Just use the same code the Normandy got from the collector base. It shouldn't be too hard.

You didn't get a "code". What was obtained was a Reaper IFF device. Why are you assuming that any human device can easily replicate the signal this device produced? Remember that Vigil said it took the top Prothean scientists decades of study to interfere with the signal that would trigger the Keepers to activate the Citadel relay. Given that information, why would you assume that Reaper communication signals are simple to duplicate?