3478 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

^ Exactly. A coalition of basicaly everyone is desperately needed, in this Cerberus has become a liability and have to step aside. Risking galactic unity for some vague kind of Deus EX Machina we wish is in the base isn't wise. Especialy as the base may just as well be useless or even worse still a threat.

[durasteel]

For me it was simple. This thing probably had all the technology needed to turn the Protheans into cockroach cyborgs. That means it could turn humans into cockroach cyborgs.



I hate cockroaches.



Boom.

[Balek-Vriege]

I think the wisdom of the choice depends on whether or not your Shep's main decisions overall lean towards paragon or renegade.



If you spent ME1 and ME2 building bridges between races and plan on doing the same in ME3, giving TIM the collector base could really ruin a "galactic alliance" and possibly cause galactic civil war. Destroying the base seriously undermines TIM's power and influence giving Shepard the chance and enviroment to unify a strengthened galaxy under his/her banner. Shep just has to convince old enemies to work together and face an enemy no one believes exists... Easy.



If you spent ME1 and ME2 making decisions that empower Humanity and Cerberus over other races or didn't help/save various alien species, then you may need the Collector base to have a good fighting chance. The other races may be too weak by that point or unwilling to share tech/resources and Humanity/Cerberus will need the Reaper technology to win. The good news is Cerberus knows the Reapers exist and have all the time in between ME2 and ME3 to exploit the base.



Whatever you choose I think there will be a chance to redeem your decision if it's counter productive, but the fight against the Reapers could be that much harder.

[achwas]

Two of my Shepards blew it to cinders... "Stronghold of Evil" and remembering the insanity inducing/reality-warping effect from the IFF's drifting Reaper.
I kept it with my Vanguard and my Sentinel, both of who found it harder going to even finish, and both of which were based on my continued chars from ME-1. Guess I wondered whether it wouldn't be nice to make the technological leap forward to face down the Reapers. Also, I am really looking forward to the Council mouthing off "we have dismissed that claim" of the Collector's base being real
Incidentally, both Sheps nevertheless blew off Cerberus and TIM.

Funny thing though - if you keep the base, the broiling star in the backdrop of TIM's office turns orange-red, if you blow away the base, the star turns completely blue-ish. Still wondering what that indicates...

Modifié par achwas, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:43 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

smudboy wrote...

The only relationship I saw as people who destroy the base do so to snub TIM, or because 'splosions are cool.  Bizarre arguments like "If we beat the Reapers, then TIM would go Machiavelli on us all" are reputed by the sheer fact that your opponents are the Reapers and they're going to kill everyone: even if Reapers are defeated and TIM goes Emperor, that outcome is still better than galactic death.

I'd rather die than live like that.

Your willingness to let a dozen billion people die to prove the sincerity of your personal beliefs strikes a cord in my heart.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

smudboy wrote...

The only relationship I saw as people who destroy the base do so to snub TIM, or because 'splosions are cool.  Bizarre arguments like "If we beat the Reapers, then TIM would go Machiavelli on us all" are reputed by the sheer fact that your opponents are the Reapers and they're going to kill everyone: even if Reapers are defeated and TIM goes Emperor, that outcome is still better than galactic death.

I'd rather die than live like that.

Your willingness to let a dozen billion people die to prove the sincerity of your personal beliefs strikes a cord in my heart.

And your belief that trusting a pathetically incompetent hate group with the base will work out makes me facepalm.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

^ Exactly. A coalition of basicaly everyone is desperately needed, in this Cerberus has become a liability and have to step aside. Risking galactic unity for some vague kind of Deus EX Machina we wish is in the base isn't wise. Especialy as the base may just as well be useless or even worse still a threat.

No one has ever been able to give me a realistic reason why the decision of giving a base to a secret organization that does not represent humanity on the galactic stage precludes the Alliance from working together with the Council species to confront the Reaper genocide.

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

smudboy wrote...

The only relationship I saw as people who destroy the base do so to snub TIM, or because 'splosions are cool.  Bizarre arguments like "If we beat the Reapers, then TIM would go Machiavelli on us all" are reputed by the sheer fact that your opponents are the Reapers and they're going to kill everyone: even if Reapers are defeated and TIM goes Emperor, that outcome is still better than galactic death.

I'd rather die than live like that.

Your willingness to let a dozen billion people die to prove the sincerity of your personal beliefs strikes a cord in my heart.

And your belief that trusting a pathetically incompetent hate group with the base will work out makes me facepalm.

If they are pathetically incompetent, they'd be unable to provide a serious threat.

Because, you know, they'd be incompetent.

So, yes. I'd rather let an incompetent force get its hands on great technological gains than willingly stand by and be complicit in the murder of my family, my home town, my state, my nation, my race, my species, my planet, my galaxy, and then the galaxies of everyone else.

[Sajuro]

@ Dean: Even though Cerberus doesn't officially represent Humanity, it being a rogue terrorist organization still hurts Humanity on the galactic stage. Their human dominance ideals are probably well known (at least within the intelligence business) and their amoral methods reflect badly on the alliance as a whole.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If they are pathetically incompetent, they'd be unable to provide a serious threat.

Because, you know, they'd be incompetent.

So, yes. I'd rather let an incompetent force get its hands on great technological gains than willingly stand by and be complicit in the murder of my family, my home town, my state, my nation, my race, my species, my planet, my galaxy, and then the galaxies of everyone else.

Incompetent people can still be dangerous Dean, especially if they are industrious (as Cerberus is) and don't know that they are incompetent (as many don't). I don't know about your shepard, but just because I blew up the base doesn't mean I'm going to lay down and wait for the Reapers to scratch my belly.

[Tyrael02]

You're incompetent if you let TIM manipulate you into believing that he wouldn't further his own goals with the acquisition of the collector base

[Dean_the_Young]

No, it doesn't reflect very badly on the Alliance on a whole, because the Alliance is actively trying to shut it down. Cerberus no more disqualifies the Alliance and prevents galactic cooperation than the CIA prevents international cooperation, and the CIA is actually a part of the US government.



Cerberus isn't. It's actively hunted by the Alliance as a whole. The two have fought, openly. Despite Cerberus contacts in the Alliance, the two institutions are not aligned or allied any more, and have been at odds for years now. The existence of a pro-humanity terrorist group (barring, of course, actual acts of terrorism) does not preclude the rest of the galaxy from working together.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, it doesn't reflect very badly on the Alliance on a whole, because the Alliance is actively trying to shut it down. Cerberus no more disqualifies the Alliance and prevents galactic cooperation than the CIA prevents international cooperation, and the CIA is actually a part of the US government.

Cerberus isn't. It's actively hunted by the Alliance as a whole. The two have fought, openly. Despite Cerberus contacts in the Alliance, the two institutions are not aligned or allied any more, and have been at odds for years now. The existence of a pro-humanity terrorist group (barring, of course, actual acts of terrorism) does not preclude the rest of the galaxy from working together.

Except that the CIA does not pump little kids full of drugs to make them super soldiers... correction to make one of them a super soldier, nor do they murder American Soldiers. It is called distrust Dean, at the very least the Turians know that Cerberus has got its mitts on several internal positions in the Alliance and that it hasn't been purged as of yet would probably seem very discomforting. If you gave TIM the base, Cerberus' influence inside of the Alliance could grow stronger along with Cerberus' own private forces, hence no one likes humans.

[Ferocious7]

Keeping the collector base makes it a tremendous liability. If it were to be re-captured (don't forget, it's in a part of space that is severely unprotected and very hard to manage). If it were to fall into their hands again, that would not be good... not to mention every single person who makes a comment on it if you destroy it or not seem to make it clear that the best thing is to destroy it thus reinforcing my beliefs. Sure it could have its benefits, but risk vs reward is not worth it given the location and who's hands it would be in (someone who we know little about at this point in time other than he thinks he's playing a game of chess with the galaxy which doesn't fly with Shepard... not my cannon Shepard anyway).

[Darian4]

lovgreno wrote...

^ Exactly. A coalition of basicaly everyone is desperately needed, in this Cerberus has become a liability and have to step aside. Risking galactic unity for some vague kind of Deus EX Machina we wish is in the base isn't wise. Especialy as the base may just as well be useless or even worse still a threat.

 
The protheans were united and it didn’t make them any good. During the countless previous cycles we can fairly assume they were many galaxy-wide civilizations, military dominions and/or peaceful alliances. No one survived.  
 
In fact, from all we know the reapers want us to be united:
-A single government is easier to strike, which is the whole purpose of the “citadel trap”.
-If we share strategic data the reapers will know where to attack. Without these data they might miss some targets (Ilos).
-We accept refugees more easily from allies and sending indoctrinated refugees is a reapers’ tactic.
 
Obviously an alliance is not enough, it may even be dangerous. In order to defeat the reapers we need something that no one before us had ever had. Since the base probably fits that definition better than a coalition we shouldn’t sacrifice the former for the latter.
 
And I really don’t agree with the idea that legitimate governments will refuse to work with a dangerous dictator with disgusting methods, the World War II taught us better. We don’t even need to go back to WWII to see our democratic countries making compromises to protect their interests. We are friends to “questionable” governments to get oil, we are allied with the Pakistan against the Taliban, etc. I seriously doubt that if their existences were in peril the alien species and Cerberus will refuse to work together.
 
 
 
But in fact I find this thread (and this choice) very irritating because we know it’s a story, with a “story” logic. The whole point of keeping the base is to not throw away the only thing we have, even if that means to trust Tim with it. Otherwise we have no weapon, no ally, no plan and no rational reason to believe it could change. But that’s ok, it’s a story so we can blow up the base, we know we will find something else. Doesn’t matter if the odds are incredibly low, if nobody did it in X million years, if it’s doesn’t make any sense, we will find something else.
 
Someone summarize it very well on the first page

Pacifien wrote...

Honor Before Reason

 
I kept the base for a RP point of view, because “my” Shepard refuses to destroy what might be our only chance against the reapers. But how can I defend my choice when I know it isn’t?
 
 
(Sorry for my poor English)

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No one has ever been able to give me a realistic reason why the decision of giving a base to a secret organization that does not represent humanity on the galactic stage precludes the Alliance from working together with the Council species to confront the Reaper genocide.

I'll be the first then.

It's like if during WWII America had hoarded all the guns for itself, but still said Britain and France were more than welcome to work together to fight Germany gun-less.

Cerberus's prerogative is to hoard technology. Even when the best thing is to share it with everyone. And even if they did share it, there would always be a catch.

And you do realize Cerberus considers itself humanity's representative. And that Cerberus is the worst "secret" organization I've ever seen.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Are you saying that Cerberus pasting their logo over every one of their secret bases, secret weapons, and secret personnel is somehow threatening their secrecy?

I'm not following.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Mangalores]

The real problem is that you, Shephard, start ME2 to investigate and stop the colonists attacks and latter find out what the Collectors do and why, but are not doing your job. At the end of ME2 you assembled a team of experts for a mission you have no clue what it will be (there could have been a freaking solar system with billions of collectors and thousands of ships on the other side or a couple of dormant reapers!) and do a completely improvised operation to blow the station up.



The TIM tells you you shouldn't because of some more improvised stuff since you nor TIM actually found out anything about the whole end game. Heck, you were lucky there wasn't a freaking orbital attack platform at the exit point of the mass relay to blow you up but just a derelict cruiser a feeble frigate can blow up.



The notion of TIM that Cerberus could protect a station whose mass relay is located right next to Omega deep within the Terminus Systems is plainly ridiuclous (all those guys will go "oh, look, human ships do now pass freely, let's check this out."). Add to that that we virtually know nothing about the Collectors (if they have some salvage ships in that huge scrapyard or there are actually other combat ships somewhere any attempt to hold that station is just suicide).



Overall however the majority of the game plainly did not give enough intel (though that was the actual mission objective before going in) to actually give much clue what to do either way. Everything is pure guessing.



I usually go more for the "Jesus, TIM, all my guys and gals just survived a freaking sucide mission with a half wrecked ship. I will call it a day with simply having stopped the Collectors and not risk anyone's neck on any more wishful thinking and speculation"



That being shackled to TIM and his nonsense is however the actual main motivator. My RP reason however was that I couldn't believe the Collectors were just this pitiful group on the station, thus stopping the reaper building and depriving them of this station was already a successful mission. Stopping the reapers takes a bigger game than cerberus as a secret organization can handle anyway. As a Spectre the whole power of the Council and its secret services and task forces is plainly the obvious place where you have to succeed if you hope to mobilize all available resources to this goal.



It would make sense to keep the station then, but not as some Cerberus place which is incredibly ineffective and doesn't have the access to resources the Alliance or the Council would have. What we learn of Cerberus is evident of that.



The absence of a third alternative where you blow off TIM but keep the station is really missing. It would be perfectly neutral because it is renegade towards TIM (not being his lapdog), paragon towards the council (Hell, Saren could do whatever he wanted as Spectre) and still keeps the station for lots of human experimentation (renegade) or careful research (paragon).

[Nightwriter]

So in other words, the whole premise of the game was silly, thus the decision was silly.



I can understand that.

[Asheer_Khan]

@Darian4



All other civilizations fail because of one very crucial factor.



Element of surprise on the Reapers side and in Prothean case they fail when Reapers emerged from Citadel relay and wiped out entire Prothean Goverment.

Once Reapers take Citadel under control they shut down entire Mass Relay system isolated every star systems from eachother.



On Ilos Vigil told very clear that if there is anything what Reapers fear than united against them galaxy, question is why?





And seriously... trusting organization having just couple hundred people which haven't yet gone rogue in ability to stop Reapers advance is really let say... heavy risk...

[achwas]

Mangalores wrote...

The absence of a third alternative where you blow off TIM but keep the station is really missing. It would be perfectly neutral because it is renegade towards TIM (not being his lapdog), paragon towards the council (Hell, Saren could do whatever he wanted as Spectre) and still keeps the station for lots of human experimentation (renegade) or careful research (paragon).

So, plainly enough, you did not actually read the option to keep the base intact, but dedicate it to _all_ humanity and its allies, and not only Cerberus ?

As for "everybody else" now charging through the Omega IV relay... good luck and godspeed to them, because without the modified Reaper IFF they will run straight into the debris and/or other stuff the Collectors had positioned around the Relay point.... adding so much more debris when they hit the stuff head on. Remember, you could use the relay before Shepard retrieved the Reaper IFF, you just did not survive it.... Plus, does anyone besides Shepard, his team and TIM know that there is a recently "decontaminated" Collector base just beyond the O-IV relay ? Nopes, they don't...

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No one has ever been able to give me a realistic reason why the decision of giving a base to a secret organization that does not represent humanity on the galactic stage precludes the Alliance from working together with the Council species to confront the Reaper genocide.

I'll be the first then.

It's like if during WWII America had hoarded all the guns for itself, but still said Britain and France were more than welcome to work together to fight Germany gun-less.

Cerberus's prerogative is to hoard technology. Even when the best thing is to share it with everyone. And even if they did share it, there would always be a catch.

That scenario would entice Britain and France to work together with WWII America, in order to get weapons they needed. Not divide them against eachother.

Which,
when you consider the matter of war aid, is a less extreme case of
exactly what happened. Britain and France did work together with the US,
and made concessions in policy and plans with the US, in exchange for
the material aid. Your example is refuted by itself.

And you do realize Cerberus considers itself humanity's representative. And that Cerberus is the worst "secret" organization I've ever seen.

No it doesn't. TIM identifies Cerberus is directly tied to humanity, but he never claimed or has acted that Cerberus represents Humanity.

If you aren't Shepard, a special agent, or a pretty high ranking official with inside knowledge in the Mass Effect universe, you don't know much about Cerberus at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, it doesn't reflect very badly on the Alliance on a whole, because the Alliance is actively trying to shut it down. Cerberus no more disqualifies the Alliance and prevents galactic cooperation than the CIA prevents international cooperation, and the CIA is actually a part of the US government.

Cerberus isn't. It's actively hunted by the Alliance as a whole. The two have fought, openly. Despite Cerberus contacts in the Alliance, the two institutions are not aligned or allied any more, and have been at odds for years now. The existence of a pro-humanity terrorist group (barring, of course, actual acts of terrorism) does not preclude the rest of the galaxy from working together.

Except that the CIA does not pump little kids full of drugs to make them super soldiers... correction to make one of them a super soldier, nor do they murder American Soldiers. It is called distrust Dean, at the very least the Turians know that Cerberus has got its mitts on several internal positions in the Alliance and that it hasn't been purged as of yet would probably seem very discomforting. If you gave TIM the base, Cerberus' influence inside of the Alliance could grow stronger along with Cerberus' own private forces, hence no one likes humans.

The CIA has pumped people with drugs in experiments with boosting abilities, and it's aided insurgents/rebel groups that actually used child soldiers. (And, if you aren't aware of one of the common means of controling child soldiers and making them more pliable and aggressive...) Given that the CIA is an attached arm, and Cerberus isn't...

Every organization and government is infiltrated by outside groups. The Salarians are respected for it. The Shadow Broker is renowned for it. Aria's crime syndicate wouldn't exist as portrayed if it didn't happen. But being infiltrated does not, and has never, implied a cooperation with the infiltrator.

[Mangalores]

achwas wrote...
...
So, plainly enough, you did not actually read the option to keep the base intact, but dedicate it to _all_ humanity and its allies, and not only Cerberus ?

Indeed have to check that. The wikia guide is also silent on that option (only has destroy it(Paragon) or keep it for Cerberus(Renegade)). What do you mean precisely?

Though I didn't keep it more because I found it a liability to expect my halfbroken ship and me keeping the station based on no intel at all that killing the Collectors on the station was all I had to do. I actually thought the Collectors were more of a threat than a bunch of imbeciles in a scrapyard.

As for "everybody else" now charging through the Omega IV relay... good luck and godspeed to them, because without the modified Reaper IFF they will run straight into the debris and/or other stuff the Collectors had positioned around the Relay point.... adding so much more debris when they hit the stuff head on. Remember, you could use the relay before Shepard retrieved the Reaper IFF, you just did not survive it.... Plus, does anyone besides Shepard, his team and TIM know that there is a recently "decontaminated" Collector base just beyond the O-IV relay ? Nopes, they don't...

Uhm, there is a big space station full of the scum of the universe right next to the relay and it should be pretty obvious pretty fast when suddenly a bunch of human ships uses it instead of Collectors. Sounds like information worth selling to everyone or try investigating further yourself to me. Good luck to Cerberus if any of the merc groups, Batarians or some of the Council agents get a whiff of that. They just have to put a bunch of ships there and board anything suspicious going for the relay. One successful boarding: Viola, your very own IFF. Accidently blowing up the ship... well, no rations for Cerberus on the other side of the relay then... another project to write off by TIM.

Really, the neighborhood is neither safe nor very isolated so while Cerberus may lock out everyone they might get locked in very easily, too. The only safeguard for the Collectors was that they were the only ones getting in and out, As this changes everyone will know that there's a way in and this is a lawless speck of space where none cares about Council laws concerning not opening mass relays just for fun this opportunity - esspecially when a known human terror organization or just any vessel passes through there freely it should get mighty interesting..

[UNAVAILABLE]

MISSION BRIEFING - Study Collector Base
----------------------------------------------------------

This document is to be presented to all Cerberus employees assigned to study the Collector Base (hereafter referred to as "the Base").

OBJECTIVES

1) Study all aspects of the Base and gain working knowledge of the technologies used.
2) R & D and rigorously field test a new line of anti-Reaper weaponry and defensive systems using the new technologies.
3) Convert the Base from its current configuration to a factory that can mass produce the newly designed weaponry.

TIMELINE

Despite the fact that studies into Reaper technology (Citadel, mass relays) by Salarians, Asari, Hanar, and others have yielded little results over the past few centuries, we at Cerberus have decided to hinge the fate of the galaxy on this teams ability to reverse that trend over the next few months.

HAZARDS

1) Please note that prolonged exposure to Reaper technology can cause headaches, memory loss, mental enslavement, impalement on large spikes, and conversion to a cybernetic zombie. Should you notice any of these effects, consult a physician immediately*.

* Note: any time spent impaled or zombified will be deducted from your pay.

2) The previous tenants were eliminated with a massive dose of radiation. All researchers are required to wear radiation gear at all times aboard the Base. We trust this will not unduly hamper research efforts.
3) Due to the intrinsically dangerous nature of the galactic core, Cerberus has been unable to scout for the potential presence of other enemies in the area. It is theoretically possible that a Collector fleet is on its way to reclaim the Base. In such an event your contract requires you to defend the Base from such an attack. Cerberus will assemble a fleet large enough to counter-attack, and reinforce you. Simulations estimate that this will take no longer than (REDACTED) weeks.
4) While time is of the essence and you will no doubt be eager to test the functions of the Base, please remain constantly aware that it is balanced near the event horizon of a black hole. Pressing the wrong button could have severe consequences (see Penalties for early termination clause of your contract for details).

Good Luck Team, Work Fast.


And have FUN!

Modifié par UNAVAILABLE, 07 septembre 2010 - 09:44 .