3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Let's start a wall of text debate!

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That scenario would entice Britain and France to work together with WWII America, in order to get weapons they needed. Not divide them against each other.

Cerberus is not accused of dividing nations against each other, it is accused of not cooperating with other nations and withholding technology against the galaxy's best interest.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Which, when you consider the matter of war aid, is a less extreme case of exactly what happened. Britain and France did work together with the US, and made concessions in policy and plans with the US, in exchange for
the material aid. Your example is refuted by itself.

... Are you being serious? The example is not stating fact, it is likening this situation to a hypothetical situation using known elements in order to draw an analogy.

Oy.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No it doesn't. TIM identifies Cerberus is directly tied to humanity, but he never claimed or has acted that Cerberus represents Humanity.

Cerberus fancies itself humanity's advocate/guardian. The Alliance may be our official representative, but Cerberus considers itself our true representative. Pretty easy to see why, since the Alliance is useless in ME2. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you aren't Shepard, a special agent, or a pretty high ranking official with inside knowledge in the Mass Effect universe, you don't know much about Cerberus at all.

Their logo is on everything. Like literally everything. Everywhere you go people say "Cerberus". There are news broadcasts about them. There's a man on public trial for Cerberus. Quarians can recognize it's a Cerberus ship from a simple ID scan. Samara knew about them and she doesn't even go beyond asari space often.

And apparently there is a historical writer in the Mass Effect universe by the name of Drew Karpyshyn who wrote a whole book about their attack on the Migrant Fleet. And they have not abducted this man? Lazy.

[Asheer_Khan]

@Dean.

No it doesn't. TIM identifies Cerberus is directly tied to humanity, but he never claimed or has acted that Cerberus represents Humanity.

timmy's own words :

CERBERUS IS HUMANITY!

He pretty much put himself at the peak of human society despite fact that no one elected him as official humanity representative.<_<

But i understand that you never get this part of dialog tree since you let yourself to fail in his web of lies and half truths...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 07 septembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[Nightwriter]

Does he really say that? Boy, characters in this game really like their emphatic statements.

"I AM OMEGA!"

"CERBERUS IS HUMANITY!"

"I AM KROGAN!"

[Asheer_Khan]

Yes, if i recall correct this was in apex of C-base mission when my paragon Shep made clear statement that minutes of C-base are counted timmy drop his mask of "goodie uncle timmy" and show his true face...

[achwas]

Mangalores wrote...

achwas wrote...
...
So, plainly enough, you did not actually read the option to keep the base intact, but dedicate it to _all_ humanity and its allies, and not only Cerberus ?

Indeed have to check that. The wikia guide is also silent on that option (only has destroy it(Paragon) or keep it for Cerberus(Renegade)). What do you mean precisely?

.......
Uhm, there is a big space station full of the scum of the universe right next to the relay and it should be pretty obvious pretty fast when suddenly a bunch of human ships uses it instead of Collectors. Sounds like information worth selling to everyone or try investigating further yourself to me. Good luck to Cerberus if any of the merc groups, Batarians or some of the Council agents get a whiff of that. They just have to put a bunch of ships there and board anything suspicious going for the relay. One successful boarding: Viola, your very own IFF. Accidently blowing up the ship... well, no rations for Cerberus on the other side of the relay then... another project to write off by TIM.

Really, the neighborhood is neither safe nor very isolated so while Cerberus may lock out everyone they might get locked in very easily, too. The only safeguard for the Collectors was that they were the only ones getting in and out, As this changes everyone will know that there's a way in and this is a lawless speck of space where none cares about Council laws concerning not opening mass relays just for fun this opportunity - esspecially when a known human terror organization or just any vessel passes through there freely it should get mighty interesting..

Part A) - as far as my (almost maxxed out paragon) Shepard who kept the base was concerned, she had dialogue option,  where she explicitly told TIM, in no uncertain and less-than diplomatic terms that the Collector Base was going to be used according to her plans as a resource to fight the reapers and that TIM could either "follow her lead" or should better get out of the way. Finishing with her telling TIM to STFU and waltzing off-stage, leaving a glowering but thoughtful TIM behind, staring at the CB's hologram.

I will try to do a quick playthrough of the finale sequence and do some screeners for the precise phrasing and dialogue choices if there is serious interest (it's pretty lame that you have to replay the entire end battle and the "grand speech" scene to get to the TIM sequence ).

As for part
The O-IV relay is useless without the Reaper IFF. Yes the scum of the universe is living nearby, but the scum of the universe (in the ME universe) does not operate battlefleets or anything that could stand up either to the human (alliance) fleet or even to the Normandy SR-2 in upgraded mode. and Cerberus posesses Stealth-Tek and Emission control technology since they co-developed the original Normandy SR-1, which should make their "foraging parties" going through the relay rather hard to intercept or even observe for civillians or even the merc-groups. BTW, the mercs in Omega Space are pretty much in reorganization mode after the events of ME-2, with their local sub-chiefs having been shredded in the Omega missions.

And even knowing that someone is now sending ships through the Omega IV relay, with some possibly even returning does still not tell anyone what is on the other end of it,, how to survive going through or how to dislodge a cereberus or Shapards's own team from the CB.


Overall, I judged the end-sequence, even with keeping the CB, that after the successful attack on the Collector Base, Shepard is basically dragging the best and brightest of Cerberus (such as Miranda, a die-hard TIM Loyalist in the beginning ) to follow him or be swept aside into obscurity in the looming conflict. Which will seriously Cereberus, which anyway has invested a major chunk of its resources into him/her and the team. None of which I see going over to Cerberus and its huge (ahem 150 agents ?) army of operatives anytime soon.

And IMHO the Illusive Man is savvy enough to play along with the "winning" side to maintaina modicrum of influence and further Humanity's agenda. Which Shepard - as alluded to in the prologue - is the most likely pawn on the board to make a reality.... After all, TIM's motivation is ensuring and solidifying humanity's place as a major power in the galaxy, not vying for personal political power or glorification. And given Wilson's actions in the tutorial, even Cerberus may have some internal dissenson and factions vying for dominance.

YMMV

[Mangalores]

thx, playing through anyway. I was renegade (and I had an issue with being an renegade equaling to being TIM's lapdog) most of the time... comes naturally I guess. Trying to Paragon this time around...

And even knowing that someone is now sending ships through the Omega IV relay, with some possibly even returning does still not tell anyone what is on the other end of it,, how to survive going through or how to dislodge a cereberus or Shapards's own team from the CB.

Point is: In contrast to other Cerberus bases it would be obvious very quickly that something is going on and that only the Normandy will do passenger and cargo hauls seems a bit weird as well. Just because some merc groups got owned doesn't mean none is there to fill the void - Aria for example. Still, dozens of interest groups in a law free zone = not so great neighborhood.



As the Terminus Systems also equals non Council powers interested in aquiring power... it is the worst place to have a secret place whose only access point goes through a highly frequented star system of a trade hub full of criminals.



The notion Cerberus can defend that, keep it secret or keep its logistics secret is imo ridiculous.

[UrNoseKnows]

Simple - Logic says species with millions of years worth of data is going to have many backup plans just incase something goes wrong. Throughout the millions of years that Reapers been around - they must have lost at least couple of their number to species willing to die than get made into new Reapers.



So if they just left the collector base empty of defenses other than a few hundred collectors - it seems like a trap, no? Reapers left mass relays and the Citadel so organic species would follow the path that Reapers wanted. Maybe Reapers wanted to test the human called Shepard to keep the base and follow what insidious path Reapers want him/her to.



Also remember that when Reapers want to wipe out organic life, they come in force with their entire fleet and destroy all - not piecemeal like they did with humans in ME2.



And TIM gives me the the vibe that he is already under Reaper control - I don't want to deal with him in ME3

[smudboy]

UrNoseKnows wrote...

Simple - Logic says species with millions of years worth of data is going to have many backup plans just incase something goes wrong. Throughout the millions of years that Reapers been around - they must have lost at least couple of their number to species willing to die than get made into new Reapers.

ME2 does not operate on simple logic.  By that token, there should've been more defenses for a device that makes Reapers.

So if they just left the collector base empty of defenses other than a few hundred collectors - it seems like a trap, no? Reapers left mass relays and the Citadel so organic species would follow the path that Reapers wanted. Maybe Reapers wanted to test the human called Shepard to keep the base and follow what insidious path Reapers want him/her to.

And what part of it seemed like a trap?

The same could be said of the Derelict Reaper: they simply didn't care for it anymore, even after they came back 740 times (cycles of destruction in this galaxy), nor was there any discnerable trap, aside from mindless husks.

[Giggles_Manically]

Each side has its pros and cons, but in the end both are terrible risks.



Take either one but neither side is really better, just like in the end of ME1.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Let's start a wall of text debate!

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That scenario would entice Britain and France to work together with WWII America, in order to get weapons they needed. Not divide them against each other.

Cerberus is not accused of dividing nations against each other, it is accused of not cooperating with other nations and withholding technology against the galaxy's best interest.

No, that's exactly it. Cerberus stands accused of: preventing nations from working together at all.

Specifically, and what you said you were giving a logical explanation for, the repeated insistence that comes up every other week that giving the Base to TIM means no galactic unity against the Repears.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Which, when you consider the matter of war aid, is a less extreme case of exactly what happened. Britain and France did work together with the US, and made concessions in policy and plans with the US, in exchange for
the material aid. Your example is refuted by itself.

... Are you being serious? The example is not stating fact, it is likening this situation to a hypothetical situation using known elements in order to draw an analogy.

Oy.

It doesn't work when your own analogy is against your intent. Just looking seven years after WW2, and the parallels become more damning: only the US and Soviets initially had nuclear weapons, did not give them outright to fellow nations, but because they had them other nations allied with them.

Holding a unique and powerful advantage does not prevent cooperation, even if distributing it could give an overall advantage. Instead, it encourages it.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No it doesn't. TIM identifies Cerberus is directly tied to humanity, but he never claimed or has acted that Cerberus represents Humanity.

Cerberus fancies itself humanity's advocate/guardian. The Alliance may be our official representative, but Cerberus considers itself our true representative. Pretty easy to see why, since the Alliance is useless in ME2. 

Why should what Cerberus considers itself trump what the much greater political might, weight, presence, and authority of the Alliance to work with others?

Various churches consider themselves the one true speaker of the flock, but that's never deligitimized the Catholic Church.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you aren't Shepard, a special agent, or a pretty high ranking official with inside knowledge in the Mass Effect universe, you don't know much about Cerberus at all.

Their logo is on everything. Like literally everything. Everywhere you go people say "Cerberus". There are news broadcasts about them. There's a man on public trial for Cerberus. Quarians can recognize it's a Cerberus ship from a simple ID scan. Samara knew about them and she doesn't even go beyond asari space often.

And apparently there is a historical writer in the Mass Effect universe by the name of Drew Karpyshyn who wrote a whole book about their attack on the Migrant Fleet. And they have not abducted this man? Lazy.

How, pray tell, does this counter what I said? Not knowing much =/= not knowing anything.

Cerberus is a largely covert agency in the same sense that Delta Force or the Navy Seals are. (Or, alternatively, most secret socities.) You can know they exist, and you can perhaps point to a few things they have done after they have happened, but that isn't 'much' by any length of the imagination. The Alliance doesn't even have (or admit to having) any idea what TIM even looks like, let alone what goes on in Cerberus.

[Mangalores]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Each side has its pros and cons, but in the end both are terrible risks.

Take either one but neither side is really better, just like in the end of ME1.

Well, imo in ME1 you should have ended up throwing the galaxy in chaos and mankind at war with everyone if you go the human council route. There are certain things called "acts of war" at which point nations do damn chances, consquences and risks and will go to war. Ursuping a long established galactic government by three major species and implicitly annexing their capital would be one of those small no-nos. Even with completely destroyed armed forces none would tolerate such an act without a fight even if it means using guerilla warfare, suicide bombings, terrorism and atrocities to retaliate.


Anyhow the thing in ME2 is that you do not get to know much of the pros and cons although the whole plot is around what is going on in that Collector base and how it connects to the reapers. Because the plot goes nowhere in that direction everyone can imo do whatever he wants though choosing TIM over any government agency in the morning of a great galactic war seems incredibly ineffective to me because you need a wee bit more than Cerberus' 100 odd operatives and six or so project cells to prepare for such a conflict.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Considering that reaper and collector technology have yielded some good results (Normandy 2.0/EDI/Collector bug vaccine) so far despite terrible ground managent (as par for the norm with Cerberus), I think leaving the station to apply its technologies would be a better choice against an obviously superior foe that thrives on people trusting their current set of technologies.

That's why the Collectors were so successful until the end of ME2. Sure the tech is dangerous but if you don't know your foe when they're more advanced, it'd be kinda hard to win...

If the races decide to find out about the dangers of Reaper capabilities DURING the actual Reaper invasion, that could be waaay too late.

Also, the worst the Illusive Man could do was try to grow his own reaper, but if he did that, he'd need millions more people (as EDI had already calculated)... which isn't something that can be covertly done (Especially when considering the size and resources of Cerberus). If I saw that even start to happen, I'd return to Omega 4 and destroy the base myself.

Also, the Illusive Man always distances himself from everything, so it seems impossible for him to have been indoctrinated.  Plus he wouldn't be against the reapers if he were, he'd be worshipping/submitting to them like the others had been.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Dave of Canada]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

(Especially when considering the size and resources of Cerberus).

Pre-Retribution I didn't even see it possible. post-Retribution? I don't see it happening. Ever. In any universe.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Skyblade012]

I just wonder what would have happened had you decided to keep the base so quickly that you skipped all the nonsense talk with TIM.



You rush out to avoid the radiation pulse, all life on the station is wiped out.



And then the science team that goes to investigate gets wiped out by a very upset baby Reaper.



Remember, that thing doesn't jump up until after you make your decision. You would have just let it to slaughter anyone who comes in, if it hadn't been so timely.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The radiation pulse destroyed all organics and the reaper is part organic. That baby reaper is dead.


The other thing about the Illusive Man is... because of Miranda, I know where he lives!

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Skyblade012]

Yeah, no. If a simple radiation pulse could kill the Reapers, this entire game would be pointless. They wouldn't even be able to survive in our galaxy if they were that easy to kill.

[didymos1120]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
The other thing about the Illusive Man is... because of Miranda, I know where he lives!

No you don't.  That groovy space station he lives on is able to be relocated, per Retribution.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Yeah, no. If a simple radiation pulse could kill the Reapers, this entire game would be pointless. They wouldn't even be able to survive in our galaxy if they were that easy to kill.

An exposed Reaper is easy to kill.  Sovereign's ship was destroyed easily by the original Normandy after its defenses were down.  On the other hand, with its shields up, nothing could stop it... need a bigger gun.  Also, that baby reaper ate a mini nuke before the radiation pulse.  It's machinery is destroyed by Shepard while the explosion destroyed the fleshy bits, that baby Reaper's dead.

didymos1120 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
The other thing about the Illusive Man is... because of Miranda, I know where he lives!

No you don't.  That groovy space station he lives on is able to be relocated, per Retribution.

So I know where he lives until he moves .  Then he'd have to be tracked..

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:03 .

[Sajuro]

"Quiet Please... Make it stop!"

[didymos1120]

Sajuro wrote...

"Quiet Please... Make it stop!"

What this topic?  Like the Reapers, this topic has no beginning.  OK, it has a beginning,  but it doesn't have an end.  Maybe.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

"It began because mods allowed it... and it will end because they demand it..." -Aristotle

[Sajuro]

didymos1120 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

"Quiet Please... Make it stop!"

What this topic?  Like the Reapers, this topic has no beginning.  OK, it has a beginning,  but it doesn't have an end.  Maybe.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100721135844/masseffect/images/thumb/2/2f/Me2david.jpg/200px-Me2david.jpg
What this topic did to David Archer.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

A day at the dentist?