3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

A day at the dentist?

In Cerberus' attempt to find a better way to removie cavities, they lost an entire team.

[Dave of Canada]

I think my problem with Cerberus in both the novels and the games is that we've never seen them succeed at anything and only see their failures, I'm sure they've done some thing right but Shepard would never be called it to "investigate a totally-populated research facility that successfully found a way to brainwash Krogan!".

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I think the main problem with Cerberus is that the Illusive Man isn't one to get his hands dirty. He tracks each of his splinter groups and all but he can't "make" them do anything. If they decide to cut corners or do crazy things, the only thing the Illusive Man can do in response is to send in more people to try and fix it or get back at offenders.

Paragon Shepard blowing up the Collector Base (and what happened to Jack) is a prime example.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Bruddajakka]

I blew it because I don't trust any one with it. Not Cerberus, not the Alliance, not the Council. No one. And Cerberus's track record is pretty bloody awful.

[lovgreno]

Sajuro wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

A day at the dentist?

In Cerberus' attempt to find a better way to removie cavities, they lost an entire team.

The dentist droids went beserk and now Shepard must stop them (as usual) or they will replace all teeth in the galaxy with reaper tech.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Following Reaper tech is exactly what the Reapers want organics to do.

[Zan Mura]

Because my paragon Shepard wants to do it.

In all honesty though, in ME1 my opinion would have been to waste the council simply because making compromises in a battle where a loss would basically mean the destruction of the entire galaxy, isn't an option. Not ever. But in ME2 I actually agree with the decision to destroy the base. Why? Because of two things.

One: Your only option is to hand over the control to cerberus, where TIM openly admits to thinking about the human interests first and foremost... that is no time to think of humans first and others second, the ONLY goal must be to save the galaxy, every resource must be dedicated for that alone. Only after that is done, is there any time to even think of human interests.

Two: What with the indoctrination and who knows whatever other technology that's made absolutely sure that not a single attempt at controlling the Reaper technology has worked to date, it's simply not worth the risk. I will not for a second believe that we can even begin to comprehend the technology of a race that is millions of years more advanced than ourselves, especially when a single jump to the citadel or a transmission - given enough time - may be enough to condemn us all to death and slavery. Keep in mind that the pulse will leave anything inorganic alive within the station. And it's not just the human-Reaper you supposedly disable, but the whole frigging moon-sized station is built by collectors whose technology comes from the Reapers.

These two combined just don't cut it. There is a chance that saving and using the station could help, yes. But I believe there's a greater chance that it would only cause disastrous harm instead.

[Zan Mura]

Shandepared wrote...

It is in humanity's best interests to defeat the Reapers. Why would you think the Illusive Man would betray you in that regard? Right now you have the same objectives so you have no reason to screw each other. Consider also that Cerberus using the Collector tech against the Reapers ultimately benefits everyone since nobody gains anything if the Reapers win. Anything that helps Cerberus beat the Reapers thus benefits the rest of the galaxy. Conversely, if you blow up the base then nobody is gaining anything.

Problem is that TIM doesn't agree with this. The simple "feeling" of his personality type nevermind his phrase clearly points to the fact that to him, humanity's concerns will already be a part of his plans. That's wrong. This is no time to focus on a backup plan or a continuation by already starting to set up research, political plans and technological trade negotiations for future human dominance. There's no time for such thought AT ALL. The full attention should be put on the Reapers, nothing else. No compromises.

While something is better than nothing, the risks are already great enough that this half-assed attitude tips the favor to not keeping the station.

Indoctrination is something you are going to need to face up to sooner or later. When the Reapers arrive they will try to use it against you in any way that they can. If you want any hope of resisting or countering this technology then you need to try and understand how it works. You can't do that as easily if the Reapers are breathing down your neck as you fight for your survival. This is your chance though. The Collector base builds Reapers and thus somewhere inside it lay the secrets of indoctrination. Study it now, in a controlled environment, while the Reapers haven't yet arrived. Thus when they do get here you might be able to thwart one of their most deadly weapons.

Indoctrination only plays a role over time. It's not instant, and I fail to see how it would play out in most fast-paced battle scenarios. The circumstances where indoctrination would even become an issue are such that even without it, the war has been lost anyway. And again, nothing is black/white. There is a chance that something resisting indoctrination could be invented from the base, but there's also a chance that it's beyond our abilities, or that it would simply backfire in any number of ways.

Finally, you say that we can't possibly hope to understand technology more advanced than our own. Well to this I can say with complete confidence that you are wrong. There is no question about this. Your premise here is completely and totally wrong. The existence of EDI and the Thanix canon both prove that we are quite capable of understanding and reverse engineering Reaper technology. The Protheans after all were able to do the same with the mass relays and we've been reverse engineering most any Prothean technology we can find.

Most of the Prothean technology was destroyed, and even with what we've reverse-engineered, they were considered to be *far* more technologically advanced than us. Granted, they didn't have much time either and the human ingenuity has often been praised in that we can find and make up solutions most other races can't even think of. But while I'm not saying we can't research new technology from pieces of the Geth or Reapers, the numerous problems and failures with Geth alone just tell me that this is one of those things where you have to admit to yourself that it's not going to happen. Story-wise I don't doubt that it will, but in real life when you encounter a problem that's been attempted by people a thousand times more experienced and smarter yourself and they weren't able to solve it, then the best option is not to even try. Instead, do something completely different from them because you simply cannot beat them by doing the same thing they did. There's no knowledge of anything that has ever overcome the indoctrination.

I'm not saying I'm 100% sure at this, of course. Anyone doing that for either side is - no offense - stupid. Nothing is more dangerous than assuming you have absolute knowledge over the right course of action. And I fully realise destroying the base would have consequences of its own, possibly fatal consequences. But when the options are: give it to TIM and Cerberus, or destroy it, I would definitely choose to destroy it. There are circumstances where I could see taking over the station as a viable option as well though. For that, I would have to place far more and different organizations than just Cerberus in charge, and to hand-pick the people responsible for the whole process. And in general devise a plan far more careful than the "walk in and see what you can find" -kind I assume Cerberus will be using.

[smudboy]

Zan Mura wrote...
Problem is that TIM doesn't agree with this. The simple "feeling" of his personality type nevermind his phrase clearly points to the fact that to him, humanity's concerns will already be a part of his plans. That's wrong. This is no time to focus on a backup plan or a continuation by already starting to set up research, political plans and technological trade negotiations for future human dominance. There's no time for such thought AT ALL. The full attention should be put on the Reapers, nothing else. No compromises.

And what (only) group is fighting the Reapers again?  Hmm?  You're complaining with what you're given?

While something is better than nothing, the risks are already great enough that this half-assed attitude tips the favor to not keeping the station.

The risks of his "attitude?"  Yes.  Let's risk the entire galaxy because of a person's attitude.  Please, learn to argue.  Personality is not an argument.

Indoctrination only plays a role over time. It's not instant, and I fail to see how it would play out in most fast-paced battle scenarios. The circumstances where indoctrination would even become an issue are such that even without it, the war has been lost anyway. And again, nothing is black/white. There is a chance that something resisting indoctrination could be invented from the base, but there's also a chance that it's beyond our abilities, or that it would simply backfire in any number of ways.

And you don't want to try to learn about it because...?

Most of the Prothean technology was destroyed, and even with what we've reverse-engineered, they were considered to be *far* more technologically advanced than us. Granted, they didn't have much time either and the human ingenuity has often been praised in that we can find and make up solutions most other races can't even think of. But while I'm not saying we can't research new technology from pieces of the Geth or Reapers, the numerous problems and failures with Geth alone just tell me that this is one of those things where you have to admit to yourself that it's not going to happen. Story-wise I don't doubt that it will, but in real life when you encounter a problem that's been attempted by people a thousand times more experienced and smarter yourself and they weren't able to solve it, then the best option is not to even try. Instead, do something completely different from them because you simply cannot beat them by doing the same thing they did. There's no knowledge of anything that has ever overcome the indoctrination.

What failures of Geth or Reapers have occurred?

So because other people tried it, and failed, we shouldn't?  Oh I guess we'll just give up and let the Reapers win.  Thanks for that suggestion.

I'm not saying I'm 100% sure at this, of course. Anyone doing that for either side is - no offense - stupid. Nothing is more dangerous than assuming you have absolute knowledge over the right course of action. And I fully realise destroying the base would have consequences of its own, possibly fatal consequences. But when the options are: give it to TIM and Cerberus, or destroy it, I would definitely choose to destroy it. There are circumstances where I could see taking over the station as a viable option as well though. For that, I would have to place far more and different organizations than just Cerberus in charge, and to hand-pick the people responsible for the whole process. And in general devise a plan far more careful than the "walk in and see what you can find" -kind I assume Cerberus will be using.

Cerberus is the only one doing anything about the situation.  They're the only ones that found the Derelict Reaper.  They're the only ones that were bad enough dudes to construct EDI.  They're the only ones that completely trust Shepard, and that's not just the SR2 crew.  As TIM himself said in regards to Shepard being a Spectre and the Council: "If you can convince them, by all means."  What's the base?  Evidence.  Evidence to do what?  Convince the Council of the Reapers threat.

Now at this point your brilliant brain would go "But wait!  Cerberus just wants that for themselves!  They'd never share!"  Maybe they won't.  Maybe they will.  It's not important.  It's a possibility that's open to us now that the evidence exists, but doesn't if the base is gone.

Oh wait let me think a few steps ahead here.  I'm sure those 4 pictures of a Reaper will really turn heads on the council...

[Xilizhra]

And what (only) group is fighting the Reapers again? Hmm? You're complaining with what you're given?

Well, I have the rachni and the geth on my side at the very least. The geth are extremely substantial and the rachni are well on their way to becoming so. And note that Cerberus has been fighting the Collectors; I personally suspect that TIM's entire plan was to get his hands on the Collector base to begin building humanity's empire over the galaxy, because while he believes in the Reapers, he doesn't think that they're an immediate problem (they're in dark space and have no point of entry).

The risks of his "attitude?" Yes. Let's risk the entire galaxy because of a person's attitude. Please, learn to argue. Personality is not an argument.

Not alone, but personality can lead to certain results that could be highly dangerous.

And you don't want to try to learn about it because...?

It's one thing to take the base for weapon designs or to learn about defensive weaknesses. But using it to study the one thing that is absolutely guaranteed to blow up in the face of the studiers? In any case, Saren had a whole lab for that on Virmire and got nowhere. I simply don't think we have enough time to do this safely.

Cerberus is the only one doing anything about the situation. They're the only ones that found the Derelict Reaper. They're the only ones that were bad enough dudes to construct EDI. They're the only ones that completely trust Shepard, and that's not just the SR2 crew. As TIM himself said in regards to Shepard being a Spectre and the Council: "If you can convince them, by all means." What's the base? Evidence. Evidence to do what? Convince the Council of the Reapers threat.

Only ones who trust Shepard? I think not. Rachni, geth, krogan if the genophage cure data becomes important, quarians if everything stays peaceful, and the Shadow Broker's entire network is now under your control as well. Rather more substantial than 100-something pseudo-terrorists, even if they do have a long reach.

And I doubt the Council would be made to believe in the Reaper threat by the simple fact that Cerberus has a Collector base. I also believe that they'd fully turn on you and bring the resources of the Citadel to full bear against you. This is very bad for galactic unity; Cerberus is the most expendable factor.

[Zan Mura]

smudboy wrote...

The risks of his "attitude?"  Yes.  Let's risk the entire galaxy because of a person's attitude.  Please, learn to argue.  Personality is not an argument.

Learn to argue? Well, no need to read past that then. I am discussing, not arguing, nor insinuating with a degrading tone simply because I can't handle a disagreement. TIM's attitude is in an essential role because it guides his motivations and actions, which play a large role in whether or not he can be trusted to safely handle the collector base the way it should be handled.

Anyway, you and I are done.

Edit: I did read past it actually. My brilliant brain? Oh well, reported then. Argue like a civil human being or don't say anything at all, thank you very much.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Following Reaper tech is exactly what the Reapers want organics to do.

No it isn't.

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I have the rachni and the geth on my side at the very least. The geth are extremely substantial and the rachni are well on their way to becoming so. And note that Cerberus has been fighting the Collectors; I personally suspect that TIM's entire plan was to get his hands on the Collector base to begin building humanity's empire over the galaxy, because while he believes in the Reapers, he doesn't think that they're an immediate problem (they're in dark space and have no point of entry).

Geth and Rachni = optional.

Not alone, but personality can lead to certain results that could be highly dangerous.

This is why god invented psychiatrists.  Not blind idiots.

It's one thing to take the base for weapon designs or to learn about defensive weaknesses. But using it to study the one thing that is absolutely guaranteed to blow up in the face of the studiers? In any case, Saren had a whole lab for that on Virmire and got nowhere. I simply don't think we have enough time to do this safely.

It doesn't matter what specifically one is studying: the argument is there is the possibility.

Only ones who trust Shepard? I think not. Rachni, geth, krogan if the genophage cure data becomes important, quarians if everything stays peaceful, and the Shadow Broker's entire network is now under your control as well. Rather more substantial than 100-something pseudo-terrorists, even if they do have a long reach.

Rachni: dead
Geth: who?  I likes teh moneys.
Krogan: Don't go to Tuchanka, don't birth testtube boy.
Quarians: who?
=all optional.

ME2:Cerberus= 100% Shepard + 50% Jesus + 50% Cyborg = 200% Motherf*cking Cybernetic Jesus Loyalty.

And I doubt the Council would be made to believe in the Reaper threat by the simple fact that Cerberus has a Collector base. I also believe that they'd fully turn on you and bring the resources of the Citadel to full bear against you. This is very bad for galactic unity; Cerberus is the most expendable factor.

If they don't believe you by then, they deserve to burn.  With High Explosive Rounds.

[smudboy]

Zan Mura wrote...

smudboy wrote...

The risks of his "attitude?"  Yes.  Let's risk the entire galaxy because of a person's attitude.  Please, learn to argue.  Personality is not an argument.

Learn to argue? Well, no need to read past that then. I am discussing, not arguing, nor insinuating with a degrading tone simply because I can't handle a disagreement. TIM's attitude is in an essential role because it guides his motivations and actions, which play a large role in whether or not he can be trusted to safely handle the collector base the way it should be handled.

Anyway, you and I are done.

Edit: I did read past it actually. My brilliant brain? Oh well, reported then. Argue like a civil human being or don't say anything at all, thank you very much.

1. Have something intelligent to write and I'll consider responding in kind.
2. Bwahahahaha!

[FouCapitan]

The collector base melted Kelly.



It must be destroyed, even in the playthroughs where Kelly doesn't melt!

[Xilizhra]

Geth and Rachni = optional.

I did say "I have."

This is why god invented psychiatrists. Not blind idiots.

This works great, assuming the patient is willing. Which few megalomaniacs are.

It doesn't matter what specifically one is studying: the argument is there is the possibility.

A possibility, yes, albeit one I deemed too risky.

Rachni: dead

Geth: who? I likes teh moneys.

Krogan: Don't go to Tuchanka, don't birth testtube boy.

Quarians: who?

=all optional.

Sucks to be you, and sucks to be in your galaxy.

If they don't believe you by then, they deserve to burn. With High Explosive Rounds.

You want to run that attitude by the entire Citadel fleet? And no one "deserves" to die in any case.

[smudboy]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Geth and Rachni = optional.[/quote]
I did say "I have."
[/quote]
Then your subjective choices are irrelevant to what is the narrative.

[quote]
[quote]This is why god invented psychiatrists. Not blind idiots.[/quote]
This works great, assuming the patient is willing. Which few megalomaniacs are.
[/quote]
Be sure to ask TIM to get some professional help?  Seriously, arguing someone's personality is insane.

[quote]
[quote]It doesn't matter what specifically one is studying: the argument is there is the possibility.[/quote]
A possibility, yes, albeit one I deemed too risky.
[/quote]
What's more risky?  Losing the entire galaxy, forever, again, or giving a base to a group of terrorists you don't like who will probably die and kill themselves in their attempts?


[quote]Rachni: dead
Geth: who? I likes teh moneys.
Krogan: Don't go to Tuchanka, don't birth testtube boy.
Quarians: who?
=all optional.[/quote]
Sucks to be you, and sucks to be in your galaxy.
[/quote]
Nope: this is the world ME provided.

Focus on the things that aren't optional.

[quote]
[quote]If they don't believe you by then, they deserve to burn. With High Explosive Rounds.[/quote]You want to run that attitude by the entire Citadel fleet? And no one "deserves" to die in any case.[/quote]
If they're just as blind, what difference does that make?  Seriously, there's mountains of evidence.  If they aren't helping out, not trying to stop the Big Bad, even after the base is saved, they're blind idiots and deserve what's coming.

[Xilizhra]

Then your subjective choices are irrelevant to what is the narrative.

...they're entirely relevant to my narrative. Not to yours, but I couldn't care less what you do with your playthrough; I'm just here to defend my own side.

Be sure to ask TIM to get some professional help? Seriously, arguing someone's personality is insane.

How, if that person is in total control of their organization? Is Kim Jong-Il's personality irrelevant to the current state of North Korea?

What's more risky? Losing the entire galaxy, forever, again, or giving a base to a group of terrorists you don't like who will probably die and kill themselves in their attempts?

The former, of course. Which is why I want Cerberus squelched and not around to make trouble with the Citadel.

Nope: this is the world ME provided.



Focus on the things that aren't optional.

I'll focus on the things that happened in my own damned game, thank you very much.

If they're just as blind, what difference does that make? Seriously, there's mountains of evidence. If they aren't helping out, not trying to stop the Big Bad, even after the base is saved, they're blind idiots and deserve what's coming.

If they at least stay out of my way when I fight the Reapers, I don't much care. There's no point in letting personal grudges into this.

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...
...they're entirely relevant to my narrative. Not to yours, but I couldn't care less what you do with your playthrough; I'm just here to defend my own side.

Yes, and your opinions are completely subjective because you don't like some guy.
You: Cerberus is  bad!  We don't need them to fight the Big Bad Guy!  We'll win!  GRR TIM!
Me: Why waste anything?

How, if that person is in total control of their organization? Is Kim Jong-Il's personality irrelevant to the current state of North Korea?

If Kim Jong-LL made me Cyber Jesus, helped me save humanity and wanted to continue doing so?  Yeah I'd help him.

GRR CERBERUS BAD!

I'll focus on the things that happened in my own damned game, thank you very much.

I'm describing things that happened in every game, as opposed to completely optional stuff.

If they at least stay out of my way when I fight the Reapers, I don't much care. There's no point in letting personal grudges into this.

Oh really?  Says the person who wants to destroy the base because they don't like TIM.  Not personal at all.

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

The risks of his "attitude?"  Yes.  Let's risk the entire galaxy because of a person's attitude.  Please, learn to argue.  Personality is not an argument.

 


No comment.

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...
Yes, and your opinions are completely subjective because you don't like some guy.
You: Cerberus is  bad!  We don't need them to fight the Big Bad Guy!  We'll win!  GRR TIM!
Me: Why waste anything?

Yes, yes, we know, everyone who doesn't agree with you is an ignorant idiot who doesn't know how to argue. 

(And really, what it seems he doesn't like is what "some guy" has shown he will do, and his organization will do, time and time again, if given half a chance.)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[upsettingshorts]

Technically ad hominem - a personal criticism of one's character - is not a logical fallacy  if it applies to the situation. In The Illusive Man's situation, his personality more or less is Cerberus policy.  Since Cerberus has a top-down, micromanaged power structure, the will of the Illusive man - and thus his personality - are integral to any evaluation of Cerberus as an organization, and valid for predicting his future actions.

That being said, blowing up the base because you don't like Martin Sheen is shortsighted and naive.

I blow up the base because the narrative is - subjectively - more fun if I do. Reason doesn't much come into it. If I was going to do a playthrough where I make every choice exactly how I would given it was real life with real stakes, I'm keeping the base.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[azerSheppard]

In th words of Jeff "Joker" Monroe: " I don't trust anyone who makes more money than me".



That = killitwithfire



The geth, not the heretics, haven't done anything "evil" so far. The rachni turned out to be controled by reapers, so they too are pardonned, but cerberus has blood on it's hands, Kohoku's killers will bleed.