3478 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Yes, and your opinions are completely subjective because you don't like some guy.

You: Cerberus is bad! We don't need them to fight the Big Bad Guy! We'll win! GRR TIM!

Me: Why waste anything?

Oh really? Says the person who wants to destroy the base because they don't like TIM. Not personal at all.

I think Cerberus is dangerous because TIM's personality is, as I said, Cerberus policy and I don't trust the organization to not undermine galactic stability if they don't see the Reapers as an immediate threat (TIM says he does, but he was always talking to Shepard).

If Kim Jong-LL made me Cyber Jesus, helped me save humanity and wanted to continue doing so? Yeah I'd help him.

You still don't know what his true plans are, or if he cares about you as anything other than an anti-Collector tool.

I'm describing things that happened in every game, as opposed to completely optional stuff.

Enjoy, but your argument only semi-works if the base blower-upper went all Renegadey in ME1.

[Mendelevosa]

Illusive Man: "Power for Cerberus is power for humanity!" That line alone was more than enough reason for me to destroy the base.

[Wildhide]

I destroy it because of all the stated comments about not trusting Cerberus's ends, and because the whole theme of the games is that the Reapers have left technology behind to guide the advancement of civilizations so they can easily annihilate them. So why precisely, now that I know what's up, would I want my forces focusing on Collector technology, that the Reaper's created, to give me an edge?



We need to find a new path and throw something at the Reapers they've never seen before.

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think Cerberus is dangerous because TIM's personality is, as I said, Cerberus policy and I don't trust the organization to not undermine galactic stability if they don't see the Reapers as an immediate threat (TIM says he does, but he was always talking to Shepard).

An entire organization is not dangerous because TIM has X personality/character traits.  How are the people on your ship dangerous (who are Cerberus?)  How are Miranda and Jacob dangerous?

Even then, so?  Archer was dangerous: but now we may have a way to control Geth without Legion's involvement.  Thorian creeps, rachni, husks: all were done to be used as Shock Troops to help save lives.

I don't see how a terrorist group, that has no army, can undermind galactic stability, with or without the base.

TIM's goal is to stop the Reapers.  Shepard's goal is to stop the Reapers.  I'm sure TIM wants to promote humanity along the way.  I'm sure Shepard wants to bang as many chicks along the way.  What difference does any of this make?  None.

You still don't know what his true plans are, or if he cares about you as anything other than an anti-Collector tool.

And I don't give a flying crap.  He has shown no reason for us to walk away from. In fact, he's given us many reasons for us to keep helping him.

Enjoy, but your argument only semi-works if the base blower-upper went all Renegadey in ME1.

No, the argument is sound because it works in every playthrough; I use objective observations and reviews of said observations.  This is not about being Renegade or Paragon, at all.  This is about not wasting opportunities, using what you're given, because the alternative is unthinkable.

GRR CERBERUS BAD!

[Xilizhra]

An entire organization is not dangerous because TIM has X personality/character traits. How are the people on your ship dangerous (who are Cerberus?) How are Miranda and Jacob dangerous?

The Lazarus cell is A: staffed by either former Normandy crew or naive goofs whom TIM reserved for the nicest Cerberus cell imaginable, and B: enthralled by Shepard's own charisma. The latter is also the case for Jacob and Miranda, both of whom are against the idea of keeping the base.

Even then, so? Archer was dangerous: but now we may have a way to control Geth without Legion's involvement. Thorian creeps, rachni, husks: all were done to be used as Shock Troops to help save lives.

Legion seems much more trustworthy, and I have their involvement. And since the creepers and husks require new human or otherwise bodies to create... studying them seems incredibly suspicious.

I don't see how a terrorist group, that has no army, can undermind galactic stability, with or without the base.

The terrorist part. Undermining things like this is what they're good at.

And I don't give a flying crap. He has shown no reason for us to walk away from. In fact, he's given us many reasons for us to keep helping him.

"Cerberus is humanity!"

No, the argument is sound because it works in every playthrough; I use objective observations and reviews of said observations. This is not about being Renegade or Paragon, at all. This is about not wasting opportunities, using what you're given, because the alternative is unthinkable.

This is an opportunity that I don't need. Your arguments do not apply to me and many others, because we have many resources from more trustworthy parties.

[Sentox6]

There's a difference between technology the reapers have left behind for civilisation to adopt, and the technology used by their active servants in a region that, by rights, no one else should be able to get to. Are people really suggesting the reapers intend (in this specific cycle) for humanity/other races to disable a collector vehicle, hijack its IFF, pop through the omega 4 relay, and grab their reaper-making machine? Somehow, I doubt that's really in the plan. They're reapers, not Aizen. Simply the fact that they intended to open the citadel's relay and return in ME1 demonstrates that the galaxies' races weren't intended to make any more great leaps forward.

My paragade Shep keeps the base. I don't trust Cerberus/TIM in any capacity whatsoever; in fact, I fully expect the choice to bite me on the ass in some fashion. Still, I consider that a pretty fair trade when faced with the extinction of all organic life, thank you. As demonstrated in ME1, it took essentially an entire alliance fleet to dent Sovereign. Now consider the number of reapers shown in the ending clip for ME2.

Still, I'm sure they can be defeated by sufficient quantities of righteous soul power!

Modifié par Sentox6, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:19 .

[Wildhide]

Are you suggesting that they'd develop an entirely new line of technology for their servants, and whether or not they calculated the risks of someone else getting some of it, not know how to counteract it easily? Thus heavy research into would avail nothing.

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Lazarus cell is A: staffed by either former Normandy crew or naive goofs whom TIM reserved for the nicest Cerberus cell imaginable, and B: enthralled by Shepard's own charisma. The latter is also the case for Jacob and Miranda, both of whom are against the idea of keeping the base.

What?  I'm not even following.  You're making this up, and you know it, because you can TOTALLY understand why TIM staffed the SR2 with said people.  Ah huh.  Right.

Legion seems much more trustworthy, and I have their involvement. And since the creepers and husks require new human or otherwise bodies to create... studying them seems incredibly suspicious.

Legion?  Irrelevant: it's optional.  We're talking about Cerberus now.

Creepers, husks and thorians were all studied and lampshaded.

"Cerberus is humanity!"

Oh.  The terror.

This is an opportunity that I don't need. Your arguments do not apply to me and many others, because we have many resources from more trustworthy parties.

Then why are you bothering to respond?  Seriously: shut it if you're not even paying attention. I'm not here to waste my time on ignoramuses who simply go "nyah nyah I'm not listening to you!"

Yeah we're done here chief.

[Dave of Canada]

Wildhide wrote...

Are you suggesting that they'd develop an entirely new line of technology for their servants, and whether or not they calculated the risks of someone else getting some of it, not know how to counteract it easily?

It's a Reaper making factory where their servants are, they've probably never had any species even decide to assault the Collector Base in all their cycles because it didn't exist back then, the Collector Base only existed for this cycle. The Collector technology is considered like winning the lottery to the citizens of Omega when they successfully trade with them, you've got access to all that now.

Off the top of my head, Shepard / Cerberus would have access to stuff like:
Particle Weaponry.
Oculus tech.
Seeker Swarms.
Specific-species tracking.
The ability to shut down all communications / tech.

That's including whatever else they haven't used to fight Shepard. Including all that wonderful tech, you've also got all the Reaper's weaponry / defense systems at the base ready for you to exploit and find out their weaknesses. The guy who blew up the base isn't preparing for the Reapers that well, the guy who kept it should be able to know how to counter the Reapers (And they'll have superior tech too).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 septembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
"Cerberus is humanity!"

Oh.  The terror.

I find it highly unlikely that you've studied much in the way of real history, or you'd see the issues that others are having with many of the comments made by TIM. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wildhide wrote...

Are you suggesting that they'd develop an entirely new line of technology for their servants, and whether or not they calculated the risks of someone else getting some of it, not know how to counteract it easily?

It's a Reaper making factory where their servants are, they've probably never had any species even decide to assault the Collector Base in all their cycles because it didn't exist back then, the Collector Base only existed for this cycle. The Collector technology is considered like winning the lottery to the citizens of Omega when they successfully trade with them, you've got access to all that now.

Off the top of my head, Shepard / Cerberus would have access to stuff like:
Particle Weaponry.
Oculus tech.
Seeker Swarms.
Specific-species tracking.
The ability to shut down all communications / tech.

That's including whatever else they haven't used to fight Shepard. Including all that wonderful tech, you've also got all the Reaper's weaponry / defense systems at the base ready for you to exploit and find out their weaknesses. The guy who blew up the base isn't preparing for the Reapers that well, the guy who kept it should be able to know how to counter the Reapers (And they'll have superior tech too).

The guy who keeps the base is handing it to a megalomanic.

TIM is a grade-A classic case.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 13 septembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[upsettingshorts]

Nice armchair diagnosis there, doctor.

Where did you earn your degree in psychology, the University of Pigeonholing?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

If by 'real history' you mean 'my selectively chosen quotes to emphasize my points, as opposed to any other examples,' sure.



Why not invoke Godwin and be done with it?



Cerberus identifies and equates itself with a greater identity. Many advocacy groups, violent and peaceful, do.

[Mystik]

I couldn't deliver it to Cerberus even when I was renegade. your handing that to them? it's like Vasir said working with Cerberus your really no different than working with the shadow broker. so personally I tell the illusive man to shove it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If by 'real history' you mean 'my selectively chosen quotes to emphasize my points, as opposed to any other examples,' sure.

Why not invoke Godwin and be done with it?

Cerberus identifies and equates itself with a greater identity. Many advocacy groups, violent and peaceful, do.

And they all cross the line into being dangerous when they believe things like "Cerberus is humanity."

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nice armchair diagnosis there, doctor.

Where did you earn your degree in psychology, the University of Pigeonholing?

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Megalomania
http://dictionary.re...wse/megalomania
http://www.merriam-w...ary/megalomania
http://www.answers.c...pic/megalomania

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:00 .

[upsettingshorts]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Megalomania

* A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence.
* An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions

The Illusive Man's wealth, power, and relative omnipotence are not delusions.  His actions are neither grandiose or extravagant - Cerberus attempts, when possible, to avoid their actions becoming common knowledge.

Nothing about the Illusive Man's character suggests to me he is interest in power simply for the sake of accumulating it - he has real, achievable goals.  His motives may be open to question, but I don't believe he is self serving.  He does what he does for the sake of others, a limited group of others - eg humans instead of the whole galaxy - but it's still not megalomaniacal.

Feel free to keep using terms you have to explain by citing Wikipedia and online dictionaries, though, it truly proves you understand them.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Megalomania

* A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence.
* An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions

The Illusive Man's wealth, power, and relative omnipotence are not delusions.  His actions are neither grandiose or extravagant - Cerberus attempts, when possible, to avoid their actions becoming common knowledge.

Nothing about the Illusive Man's character suggests to me he is interest in power simply for the sake of accumulating it - he has real, achievable goals.  His motives may be open to question, but I don't believe he is self serving.  He does what he does for the sake of others, a limited group of others - eg humans instead of the whole galaxy - but it's still not megalomaniacal.

Feel free to keep using terms you have to explain by citing Wikipedia and online dictionaries, though, it truly proves you understand them.

You'd rather I directly insert massive text quotes from the technical disorders that megalomnia breaks down into from the DSM, instead?

I don't know how anyone can listen to TIM and not come to the conclusion that he fits snugly in the catagory, but to each his own I guess.

[upsettingshorts]

I'd rather you not make convenient armchair diagnosis of fictional characters based on shaky assumptions and liberal interpretations at all.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
"Cerberus is humanity!"

Oh.  The terror.

I find it highly unlikely that you've studied much in the way of real history, or you'd see the issues that others are having with many of the comments made by TIM. 

Oh my.  The comments.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

An entire organization is not dangerous because TIM has X personality/character traits. How are the people on your ship dangerous (who are Cerberus?) How are Miranda and Jacob dangerous?

The Lazarus cell is A: staffed by either former Normandy crew or naive goofs whom TIM reserved for the nicest Cerberus cell imaginable, and B: enthralled by Shepard's own charisma. The latter is also the case for Jacob and Miranda, both of whom are against the idea of keeping the base.

It is a theory of mine that a secondary objective of TIM's was in fact to see to it that Shepard suffered as many casualties as possible during the SM, A way to "clean house" on non-true believers in Cerberus, potential troublemakers, and threats to human dominence (in the form of alien squadmates.

TIM is evil.  Charming, yes.  Willing to protect humanity absolutely.  But also power-hungry, He simply cannot be trusted with that kind of power. 

Keeping the base or blowing it up are both gambles.

Blow it up, you're gambling that you will find something else to stop the Reapers.  Some new innovation, another source of advanced tech, another clue from the Protheans or some older race.  Or maybe that you'll be able to unite the galaxy against the threat and that, plus forewarning that the Reapers are coming, will be enough

Keep it, you're gambling that Cerberus won't yet again screw up their experiments, forcing Shepard to come in yet again to clean up their mess using assualt rifle -strength cleanser.  Or worse, having Cerberus turn on the galaxy in general once they learn everything they can from the base.

I can see both possiblities as legitimate, but I prefer the first option.  I don't have to touch the fire

[Pacifien]

Let's keep the sarcasm out of it, please.

[Slayer299]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Megalomania

* A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence.
* An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions

The Illusive Man's wealth, power, and relative omnipotence are not delusions.  His actions are neither grandiose or extravagant - Cerberus attempts, when possible, to avoid their actions becoming common knowledge.

Nothing about the Illusive Man's character suggests to me he is interest in power simply for the sake of accumulating it - he has real, achievable goals.  His motives may be open to question, but I don't believe he is self serving.  He does what he does for the sake of others, a limited group of others - eg humans instead of the whole galaxy - but it's still not megalomaniacal.

Feel free to keep using terms you have to explain by citing Wikipedia and online dictionaries, though, it truly proves you understand them.

I'm sorry, but are you *seriously* saying that TIM is a fuzzy bunny philanthropist, that he's just looking out for the good of humanity with all his fun experiments on humans and his other near disasters

[upsettingshorts]

Nope, not even remotely.

Just that a megalomaniac seeks power for its own sake.

TIM has, you know, actual motives and non-delusional, achievable goals.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[OneDrunkMonk]

By the games and the books it's pretty evident that Cerberus has a habit of loosing control of their endeavors to become dominant in the galaxy. Guaranteed that if Cerberus had any control, usable data or tech from the Collector base that it would only end up being disastrous for everyone.

[smudboy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nope, not even remotely.

Just that a megalomaniac seeks power for its own sake.

TIM has, you know, actual motives.

I think he's got this thing for humanity.

Oh and stopping the Collectors, which in turn means stopping the Reapers.  *Watches first minute of the game.*  Or vice versa.

But just listen to the sound of his voice!  Clearly he'll build a human Reaper.  You are not noticing the subtle intricacies of Dark Energy which his screensaver has!  It must mean that glint in his cold, blue, mechanical eyes is foreshadowing!  Megalomaniac!  Sun Tzu's Art of War!  Machiavelli's Prince!

It's all so clear.

Modifié par smudboy, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:33 .