3478 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

By the games and the books it's pretty evident that Cerberus has a habit of loosing control of their endeavors to become dominant in the galaxy. Guaranteed that if Cerberus had any control, usable data or tech from the Collector base that it would only end up being disastrous for everyone.

Except you know, the Lazarus cell.  The one that though the course of Mass Effect 2 turns out to be a phenomenal success.   One that incorporates Reaper technology within EDI and the IFF...

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
"Cerberus is humanity!"

Oh.  The terror.

I find it highly unlikely that you've studied much in the way of real history, or you'd see the issues that others are having with many of the comments made by TIM. 

Oh my.  The comments.

So you're saying we should ignore everything that TIM says and everything that TIM does, in favor of... what, exactly? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

By the games and the books it's pretty evident that Cerberus has a habit of loosing control of their endeavors to become dominant in the galaxy. Guaranteed that if Cerberus had any control, usable data or tech from the Collector base that it would only end up being disastrous for everyone.

Except you know, the Lazarus cell.  The one though the course of Mass Effect 2 turns out to be a phenominal success.   One that incorporates Reaper technology within EDI and the IFF...

Their batting average is well below the Mendoza line, then.  The one hit they have for the season is a home run, but they keep striking out otherwise. 

Well, they do occasionally get on base by being hit with the pitch..

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
So you're saying we should ignore everything that TIM says and everything that TIM does, in favor of... what, exactly? 

What does TIM say and TIM do that make us favor or not favor him?

[nelly21]

The problem with this debate is that everyone seems to be placing personal feelings into the decision. I like to roleplay with my Sheps so my decision is always decided by one question, "does this fit this Sheps's personality".



There are only two reasons to destroy the base:



1. Your Shep is full paragon. If you've had the displeasure of going this route you will know that Shep is always saying things like, "risking innocents is never necesssary" or my personal favorite, "there's always a better way". The reason for destroying the base with this Shep is self-explanatory.



2. Your Shep is a Survivor in which case he wouldn't want to work for Cerberus in the first place and would destroy the bomb largely based on personal feelings.



Other than that, no, there really isn't a reason to destroy the base. Yes you are handing it to a man who seems to aspire to human domination. Yes, Cerberus has a few skeletons in the closet. But the focus should be the Reapers. Right now, Cerberus is the only group that is doing anything about them. They can be dealt with later if you hate them so much.



Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced Illusive Man wants actively engage in open warfare against every other species. It seems much more likely that he will use it as a bargaining chip. The base isn't a weapon. It will simply advance human technology to a point where we might surpass the other species. The idea that the Collector base is an instant kill button Illusive Man can press to conquer the galaxy is absurd.

[Slayer299]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nope, not even remotely.

Just that a megalomaniac seeks power for its own sake.

TIM has, you know, actual motives and non-delusional, achievable goals.

Well it was never an issue about TIM not having goals or being delusional because we all know its for humanities domination over the universe and megalomaniac isn't the right word for him. But the problem with TIM and Cerberusis how they want to go about *achieving* those goals at any cost.

Modifié par Slayer299, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[upsettingshorts]

That's a different argument than the one I was refuting, so I wouldn't use the phrase "we all know" because apparently, it's open to interpretation.

[jbblue05]

Shepard defeats a Reaper, destroys the Collectors, laughs in the face of death, fearless leader but FEARS TIM

Say whatever you like you're letting your fear of TIM impede your progress of beating the Reapers.



You must lack confidence if you don't think you can stop TIM if he does something terrible with the base.



What's the point of being a spectre if your not doing the best to promote galactic stability.

The Reapers are the biggest threat to galactic stability while Cerberus is extremely minor

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
So you're saying we should ignore everything that TIM says and everything that TIM does, in favor of... what, exactly? 

What does TIM say and TIM do that make us favor or not favor him?

Holy...

We're up to 109 pages on this thread alone that already answer that question.   Is it your "discussion strategy" to pretend that the rest of the thread doesn't exist?

[upsettingshorts]

Threads that have "answers" are two pages long and either end up locked or sliding into forum obscurity. Threads that are 109 pages long only have opinions, and I believe he asked for yours.

[Aradace]

Joy.....THIS thread again >.>

[Slayer299]

Well, isn't that Cerberus' goal from the get go? I thought that was pretty clear, Cerberus was to promote Humanities interests and advancement in the universe and at any cost. So there's a different interpretation?

[upsettingshorts]

Aradace wrote...

Joy.....THIS thread again >.>

Yeah, it sucks that Bioware forces us to read and respond to a limited number of threads on the same topic.  If only we had the freedom to choose which discussions we could participate in.  Alas...

Slayer299 wrote...

Well, isn't that Cerberus' goal from
the get go? I thought that was pretty clear, Cerberus was to promote
Humanities interests and advancement in the universe and at any cost. So
there's a different interpretation?

That's a motive and an achievable goal.  One that you can't easily dismiss as coming from the mind of a megalomaniac or from a terrorist organization.  Such descriptions allow people in the game's universe and players themselves to easily dismiss Cerberus and the Illusive Man without having to actually think critically.   

Ever heard the phrase "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?"  Well, that's often true.  But it isn't always - take for example the most infamous terrorist of our age: Osama bin Laden.  His organizations goals are not possible to achieve - they want to bring about Islamic Pan Nationalism an end the nation-state system all over the world, introducing global Sharia law.  That's never, ever going to happen.  Having an achievable goal is one of the core tenants of ethical doctrines like the Just War Theory, otherwise you're just getting people killed (and killing) for no damn good reason.  Throw in that to bin Laden that fear is a weapon, whereas for Cerberus it is a side effect, and the difference between actual terrorists and what Cerberus actually is start to come into focus.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[SpiderFan1217]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

If you had the option to take/steal Satan's powers would you do it? Like his powers the technology is  evil. I destroy it every time.

(I reallly hope I spelled Satan right.)

[upsettingshorts]

False analogy is false. If you had the option to take/steal N@zi rocketry technology and scientists would you do it?

Yes.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
So you're saying we should ignore everything that TIM says and everything that TIM does, in favor of... what, exactly? 

What does TIM say and TIM do that make us favor or not favor him?

Holy...

We're up to 109 pages on this thread alone that already answer that question.   Is it your "discussion strategy" to pretend that the rest of the thread doesn't exist?

I'm asking you.  What, you can't give me an example?

[Iakus]

smudboy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
So you're saying we should ignore everything that TIM says and everything that TIM does, in favor of... what, exactly? 

What does TIM say and TIM do that make us favor or not favor him?

What does TIM do that is in his favor?

He found the Cure for Death and used it on Shepard.  That was nice of him
He supplied Shepard with a not-quite-top-of-the-line replacement Normandy

Not favor:

Kahoku
David
Akuze
Pragia
Toombs
Chasca
Listening Post Alpha

Not including the stuff in the books, whichI have not read.

Overall, I'd say it's even money that Cerberus could end up accidentally destroying galactic civilization with the base before the Reapers even arrive

[SpiderFan1217]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

False analogy is false. If you had the option to take/steal N@zi rocketry technology and scientists would you do it?

Yes.

Oh, good counter. I salute you, but, no, I wouldn't use the tech.

[Dave of Canada]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

If you had the option to take/steal Satan's powers would you do it? Like his powers the technology is  evil. I destroy it every time.

Really hard to go with this example but I'll try...

If Satan was coming to destroy all life and you were given a chance to find out what his powers were and how to use them yourself, would you rather take your chances?

[SpiderFan1217]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

False analogy is false. If you had the option to take/steal N@zi rocketry technology and scientists would you do it?

Yes.

Oh, good counter. I salute you, but, no, I wouldn't use the **** tech.

(I didn't know I couldn't say that.)

Modifié par SpiderFan1217, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[smudboy]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

If you had the option to take/steal Satan's powers would you do it? Like his powers the technology is  evil. I destroy it every time.

(I reallly hope I spelled Satan right.)

So is a gun evil?  What makes Satan's powers evil?  What makes the base evil?  What makes any weapon evil?  What makes my shoelace evil?

There is nothing good or bad about anything.  In regards to a tool, it's how it's used that puts it in a context.  Shoelaces are pretty handy in tying up shoes.  They're also pretty good in strangling people, I hear.

[Roamingmachine]

This thread STILL going on? All it does is go round and round and i can guarantee that nobody will ever budge...Oh well, might as well add fuel to the fire.

There is NOTHING in the collector base that would help you against the reapers.Why? Because unless you start cranking out dreadnoughts at the cost of everything else, to quote a certain movie, victory cannot be achieved by force of arms.The reaper fleet WILL win 100% of the time any full-on engagement against them.No amount of thanix cannons are going to help you against a fleet of those mini deathstars.Too many, too hard, too smart and carry way too much firepower.The best you can hope is a suicidal delaying action while Shepard pulls off yet another miracle like with Sovereign.It will be interesting to see how it will be done since reapers have shown no weaknesses other than when the extension of their 'consiousness' is destroyed.If you want tech to actually fight the reapers you should have worked harder to salvage the derelict.That could have actually proven useful instead of a base constructed to house drones that work in what is essentially a shipyard.A shipyard is useless without blueprints and there is really no need for an advanced AI with remote access to workers to house those anywhere than its own memory.Otherwise Harbinger would have just popped in and blown the base anyway after you've cleansed it of the collectors to protect the secrets.



With all that, what would be the point of giving the base to a twit with delusions of grandeour? Other than seeing yet another cerberus failtrain project in action, that is.There is nothing further Cerberus can offer to the war effort now that Shepard is back and has the Shadowbroker backing him.In fact for the good of the galaxy cerberus should just lay off it.They did enough damage to any alliance efforts against the reapers with the whole Paul Grayson orgy of fail.

[SpiderFan1217]

Dave of Canada wrote...

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

If you had the option to take/steal Satan's powers would you do it? Like his powers the technology is  evil. I destroy it every time.

Really hard to go with this example but I'll try...

If Satan was coming to destroy all life and you were given a chance to find out what his powers were and how to use them yourself, would you rather take your chances?

If it means selling my soul to live, I'd take my chances.

[upsettingshorts]

Roamingmachine wrote...

There is NOTHING in the collector base that would help you against the reapers.Why? Because unless you start cranking out dreadnoughts at the cost of everything else, to quote a certain movie, victory cannot be achieved by force of arms.

I'm pretty sure one of the techs salvaged from Sovereign included aspects of EDI's information warfare suite.  Reaper ships are likely extremely not-deadly if they can't function.

Not to mention the metagaming reason:  They wouldn't give us the option of keeping it if it was worthless.

Roamingmachine wrote...

With all that, what would be the point of giving the base to a twit with delusions of grandeour?

He's not delusional.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Iakus]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I fail to see the point in doing it. Preserving the base seemed convientient and perhaps increased the chances of getting collector weapons and tech in ME3. I don't get why the majority of the community destroy it. The last person I asked just said it was "to get a more satifying explosion" but it seems like more than that.

If you had the option to take/steal Satan's powers would you do it? Like his powers the technology is  evil. I destroy it every time.

(I reallly hope I spelled Satan right.)

I'd hesitate to call Reaper technology "evil"  I would say it was incredibly dangerous, close to being "sufficiently advanced"  Utmost care has to be used in studying it, or disaster could strike.  Think of what Tali's father was doing with the geth, but multiplied tenfold.

Cerberus (and TIM) simply doesn't have the patience, self-restraint, or perhaps even the survival instincts to respect the power of the base.  And that's before we get into what Cerberus would do with the base's technology.